Fog lights

My dealership is quoting me $420+tax for a new set of fog lights and labor cost. Am I getting raped? Any cheaper options out there?

Plug the holes is cheaper. Or replace the fog lights with cooling ducts to the brakes.

 

It's not like you really need them anyway.

420 is way to much. 150-200 is the used price, install them yourself.

Well, i want the fog lights mostly because of the looks.

 

Where can I find used Fog lights? I have tried ebay and the market place. Seems like nobody is selling it.

Junk yard, try a body shop, see what they want to install them.

^ +1 - rip them out of a junkyard.

 

Hell, in all honesty, I'd buy the fog-lamp covers, and retrofit a set of good aftermarket fogs down there, instead.

Yeah, I guess I will visit the local junkyards and see what I am able to come up with. For the time being I will save the $420 and buy some sway bars for my legacy.

 

Thanks for the help guys!

Well, i want the fog lights mostly because of the looks.

 

Where can I find used Fog lights? I have tried ebay and the market place. Seems like nobody is selling it.

 

u have 09 3.0R? what color, I can help u look around for a set, let me know if u want to do it

u have 09 3.0R? what color, I can help u look around for a set, let me know if u want to do it

 

Does the color the car really matter? I thought the fog light all comes in black? My car is silver and yeah I wouldn't mind if you are able to find one. I will gladly buy one off you.

Does the color the car really matter? I thought the fog light all comes in black? My car is silver and yeah I wouldn't mind if you are able to find one. I will gladly buy one off you.

 

let me see what I can do

let me see what I can do

 

Thank you.

I cant recall ever seeing any legacy's newer than a 92 in junkyards around here where are you guys at that they have 05+ leggies in a junkyard.

^ Agreed. Insurance companies auction newer cars off to "used car part warehouses." If you do an online search, you should be able to find some used fogs for sale in one of those.

I like the way they look too. I have 3000k HIDs in mine and they keep the whip lookin' fly, son.

But is it useful to even get fog lights?

 

Other than looks, are there any more convincing reason to get one?

My dealership is quoting me $420+tax for a new set of fog lights and labor cost. Am I getting raped? Any cheaper options out there?

One can purchase a used set...for example this set on ebay just went for $200.00 which is kinda high as new

they are only $235? (by the same manufacturer that Subaru buys from.)

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170507440659&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT#ht_500wt_956

 

New: http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh93/JRanmann/Screenshot2010-09-03at13733AM.png

 

But is it useful to even get fog lights? Other than looks, are there any more convincing reason to get one?

Fog lights merely for 'looks' or the 'cool' factor is missing the point of auxiliary fighting...and one might (as some do for looks alone) just as well install an aftermarket Xenon main-lighting headlamp kit and piss everyone off...? Unlike factory Xenon lighting...most kits are not self-leveling though so you run the risk of blinding everyone else on the road. One might well ponder the viability of cultivating ill will toward oneself and instead, more deeply cherish one's good friends instead?

 

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSkJPNXcGJZ63bM8xJTJC0NnhRrUZZ0GGKSZgUQ-2fwpLalROI&t=1&usg=__sw7KnXYc3AtEKHs2CYgQoWeRZLQ=

 

Badly installed and misalligned lighting on YOUR vehicle can be a real problem for on-coming traffic (Have you ever seen ill-adjusted blue Xenon elements bouncing toward you...straight-on at night?) This doesn't even factor in the bad karma that eventually will come your way (see below?) for causing others to tolerate (at best) being blinded as they innocently approach you from the opposite direction. I have seen drivers turn around and chase the idiots that do this..? i.e. Not causing an unsafe condition for others is the second rule of safe driving...but there's more,

 

If you resist the cool factor a bit and research available fixtures and bulbs on the web and thus find a proper set of driving lights ($200) with bulb elements that fit your openings and actually do penetrate dense fog or snow (as the yellow lights do very well)...what's not to like?

 

By all accounts it seems the OEM (expensive) fogs on the LGT are somewhat useless (not sure why but likely they are not placed correctly...body panel interference and this combined with weak beam, etc...is likely is the reason? ) Some of us last week were just discussing this here: http://legacygt.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3072756&postcount=9

 

...IMO if you live and have to drive in any environment where severe weather affects forward visibility (snow, fog, rain etc.) additional lighting that can actually penetrate the obscuring 'elements' in question is very useful, as sometimes one has real trouble distinguishing between where the snowbank starts and the road itself ends, etc (visual mirage, of sorts) especially at night when you're tired, etc.

 

Instead, consider yourself lucky that you don't already have a set of OEM lights that you toss out...OR have to buy the foglight filler panels (see the panels on the blue wagon..on that thread) as they are somewhat hard to find and expensive...Much better to research how to spend under $200 and get PIAA's or another brand of fog penetrating bulb/fixture and install them yourself..so that while still looking cool you are also able to safely negotiate the road with ease..(even when no one is looking?)

 

Actually getting home (or where you are going to) when caught in a sudden and unexpected driving snow-storm is much better than getting stuck and not being able to make it (especially if the equally tired and bitchy wife/gf is with you?) This brings us to the first rule of safe driving...which is always being able to clearly see where you are pointing the car forward...Much, much better than becoming confused for a second while negotiating an unfamiliar bend in the road... and driving off the pavement... plowing into a snowbank...you know, the car gets high-sided...(wheels spinning freely...off the pavement).... and thus... you end up sitting there feeling just a bit more humble...catching yourself hummng the theme from Ghostbusers (Who ya gonna call?) until the wife says "will you shut up!" you inevitably beginning to shiver in your t-shirt and shorts...as you realize that you had almost forgotten the actual meaning of the phrase "cool factor'?

 

...All the while re-dialing again and again...(waiting for another round of good cellphone signal as cuz of the bad weather).. and you finally get through to the AAA operator, to check on your call status...now being better able to indicate just what the problem is...and where you are stuck in more depth....just so that they (seemingly without mercy) can respond in kind by telling you (with a certain sense of false concern?) "Sir, lots of folks are stuck tonight and as I said before it will be at least three/four hours until the contract station can get a truck to you... so... just be patient...(you sigh rather deeply at this) and feeling like the shivering fool that you now really are.. you hear her also say (over your wife's whining) "Sir, will you PLEASE ask whomever is making all that racket to be quiet for JUST a sec... so i can get your service request started? Seems to me it's one of those nights that you just wish you could forget...that is, if you get home by daylight?

 

Foglights that actually do something to light the way ahead...and at the same time don't bother the oncoming traffic?

hmmm....I'm 'convinced!'

 

Cheers!

 

Ran

One can purchase a used set...for example this set on ebay just went for $200.00 which is kinda high as new

they are only $235? (by the same manufacturer that Subaru buys from.)

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170507440659&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT#ht_500wt_956

 

New: http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh93/JRanmann/Screenshot2010-09-03at13733AM.png

 

Fog lights just for the 'looks' factor is missing the point of auxiliary fighting...and one might (as some do for looks alone) just as well install an aftermarket Xenon main-lighting headlamp kit and piss everyone off...? Unlike factory Xenon lighting...most kits are not self-leveling and so temporarily blind (and infuriate) everyone else on the road. One might ponder the viability of cultivating ill will toward oneself and instead, more deeply cherish one's good friends?

 

Badly installed and misalligned lighting on YOUR vehicle can be a real problem for on-coming traffic (Have you ever seen ill-adjusted blue Xenon elements bouncing toward you...straight-on at night?) This doesn't even factor in the bad karma that would also eventually come your way... for causing others to tolerate (at best) being blinded as they innocently approach you from the opposite direction. I have seen drivers turn around and chase the idiots that do this..? i.e. Not causing an unsafe condition for others is the second rule of safe driving...but there's more,

 

If you resist the cool factor a bit and research available fixtures and bulbs on the web and thus find a proper set of driving lights ($200) with bulb elements that fit your openings and actually do penetrate dense fog or snow (as the yellow lights do very well)...what's not to like?

 

By all accounts it seems the OEM (expensive) fogs on the LGT are somewhat useless (not sure why but likely they are not placed correctly...body panel interference and this combined with weak beam, etc...is likely is the reason? ) Some of us last week were just discussing this here: http://legacygt.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3072756&postcount=9

 

...IMO if you live and have to drive in any environment where severe weather affects forward visibility (snow, fog, rain etc.) additional lighting that can actually penetrate the obscuring 'elements' in question is very useful, as sometimes one has real trouble distinguishing between where the snowbank starts and the road itself ends, etc (visual mirage, of sorts) especially at night when you're tired, etc.

 

Insead, consider yourself lucky that you don't already have a set of OEM lights that you toss out...OR have to buy the foglight filler panels (see the panels on the blue wagon..on that thread) as they are somewhat hard to find and expensive...Much better to research how to spend under $200 and get PIAA's or another brand of fog penetrating bulb/fixture and install them yourself..so that while still looking cool you are also able to safely negotiate the road with ease..(when no one is looking )

 

Actually getting home (or where you are going to) when caught in a sudden unexpected storm is much better than getting stuck and not being able to... (and especially if the equally tired and bitchy wife is with you?) This brings us to the first rule of safe driving...which is always being able to clearly see where you are pointing the car forward...Beter than becoming confused for a second while negotiating an unfamiliar bend in the road... and driving off it...thus plowing into a snowbank...Car gets high-sided...i.e. wheels off the pavement, etc.... and thus you end up sitting there hummng the theme from Ghostbusers (who ya gonna call?) eventually shivering in your t-shirt ...and waiting for another round of good cellphone signal...so you can re-call the AAA and acutally get thruough to tell them where you are located...all so that they can then tell you that lots of folks are stuck tonight and it will be at least three hours until they can get to you... and maybe four?

 

Cheers!

 

Ran

 

Thanks for the detailed reply Ran.

 

Unfortunately, my Legacy is the 2009 version and it seems that it is rare for people to be selling used parts for such a new vehicle. The only way that I am able to see right now is to get the OEM version from the dealership. I am not very keen about the aftermarket LED fog lights.

 

Other than looks, I am also getting fog lights for safety reasons. Because during winter in Washington, the snowstorm can be quite terrible. However, I have read a few stories by the fellow forum members that the OEM fog light sucks. So I am kinda at a dilemma now.

 

I am hovering more towards saving the money and spend more on modding my legacy. Maybe you can convince me otherwise?

The used lights were not a deal by any means....check out PIAA or others for their writeups, etc?

 

And if my little story (which actually happened) doesn't convince you, then perhaps you have never been married...?

 

Whatever the mods, none of them will give you traction when your wheels are off the ground... (which incidently, is the third rule of safe driving) that being...

....sure, drive the Subaru until the doors fall off...but for heaven's sake do keep at least one wheel on the pavement at all times?

 

Cheers!

 

PS if you look very carefully you can just make out my Bosch units, and unlike the Legacy are well positioned and free of obscuring body panels or thick front bumper...and throw good light to the side, thus alerting me to oncoming polar bears and such, stepping out onto the road... albeit, just before impact?

 

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh93/JRanmann/SixBuried-1.jpg

 

To get you started, check out this writeup on different lights as to color, lens concentrators and the ability to aim them to do the most good, etc?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_lighting

 

Good luck!

But is it useful to even get fog lights?

 

Other than looks, are there any more convincing reason to get one?

 

if u snap in a set of yellow HID, it is very useful, trust me on this

 

(you won't recognize much different if you only use the stock bulbs)

Badly installed and misalligned lighting on YOUR vehicle can be a real problem for on-coming traffic (Have you ever seen ill-adjusted blue Xenon elements bouncing toward you...straight-on at night?) This doesn't even factor in the bad karma that eventually will come your way (see below?) for causing others to tolerate (at best) being blinded as they innocently approach you from the opposite direction. I have seen drivers turn around and chase the idiots that do this..? i.e. Not causing an unsafe condition for others is the second rule of safe driving...but there's more,

 

It's not just a problem with HIDs, but also standard incandescents - proper aim is critical.

 

Indeed, the biggest counterpoint for those who say that they're "safer" because they can "see better" is just that: they haven't considered what's happening from the other side - blinding oncoming traffic, to me, is never safe, for there's no telling what might happen.

 

Being chased and then chewed-out? That's the best-case scenario.

 

The worst-case would be causing the oncoming driver so much discomfort in such an unexpected manner as to cause them to cross-over into your lane-of-travel or otherwise induce an unsafe/less-safe situation.

 

 

If you resist the cool factor a bit and research available fixtures and bulbs on the web and thus find a proper set of driving lights ($200) with bulb elements that fit your openings and actually do penetrate dense fog or snow (as the yellow lights do very well)...what's not to like?

"Driving lights" mounted so low would not be operating at their best - that's not to say that the factory position isn't too low for true "fogs," anyway (and yes, unfortunately, it is, according to more recent academic papers).

 

And as for yellow/amber light?

 

More recent research has shown that the "penetration" it brings is not quantitative - rather:

 

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/yellow-fog-lights-77619.html

[ more specifically: http://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/handle/2027.42/49453 ]

 

outahere summarizes the referenced study:

 

From that report:

 

"Comparisons of fog lamps used alone ... to low-beam lamps used alone

... indicated that the fog lamps provided greater visibility than the low-beam

lamps at very short range (10 m), but that at longer distances (20 and 40 m) the low-beam lamps provided greater visibility.....................the low beam alone provided better target contrast for all conditions beyond 10 m. "

 

" The comparisons of low beams used alone to low beams used with

fog lamps... yielded a pattern that was very similar, with the

added fog lamps increasing the visibility provided by the low beams at short range, but reducing visibility at longer distances."

 

" Front fog lamps are designed primarily to increase driver comfort and security rather than to promote collision avoidance visibility. The peripheral illumination production of front fog lamps enhances driver visibility of positional cues needed for vehicle control."

 

Bottom line: front fog lamps are primarily for perceived comfort, and lane awareness, and cosmetics.

 

Yes, jranmann, I agree that lane-awareness is good (please don't misunderstand - as I use yellow/amber fogs for precisely this reason), and it is a quantitative aspect of performance that was improved (which, as you cited later, is important for staying on the road and out of the ditch or away from the curb) - but it's not "penetration" in terms of forward visibility, which is classically what's believed of amber/yellow light, in the fog/weather application. And this awareness, brought upon by foreground/peripheral illumination, exacts a not unexpected toll on distance vision.

 

Foglights that actually do something to light the way ahead...and at the same time don't bother the oncoming traffic?

hmmm....I'm 'convinced!'

So, remember, slow-to-reasonable, and don't let what you think you're seeing deceive you.

 

And add a rear fog, and use it properly.

 

But this all wraps back into our recommendation for Kodax - what to do, for his specific situation?

 

I still think that it would be best to simply skip over the OEM application - to get a set of either OEM or aftermarket bumper covers for that area (with or without the fog-light opening), and fit in a good set of aftermarket fog lamps, instead. The positioning of the lamps may be compromised (a factor that may or may not be able to be overcome, via alternative aiming), but at least the optics will be much, much better. Ideally, you'd mount the aftermarket lighting to optimize its performance, but that typically requires some level of aesthetic compromise...and by your initial question, Kodax, I'm led to believe that keeping the vehicle somewhat OEM-looking would be your preference?

 

The factory optics just aren't great, and unless you want to literally over-power that area, such as with boymk123's suggestions of using a plug-and-play HID or stepping up to overwattage bulbs (including the "hi-lo" modified 9011/HIR1), there's really not much payoff....

Being chased and then chewed-out? That's the best-case scenario.

uh huh!

 

On the amber, it's very true that the penetration is best (visual trickery) at short distance but because one never actually collides with anything unless it comes in close proximity anyway...this can make all the difference? (moving slowy helps too, as Tsi states!)

 

Likely as well the reflective light rays and the subsequent patterns find their way back into one's eyes yet the yellow is hardest to do so, making it appear that the area ahead is better perceved due to loss of interference... Very unlike white light, that is a combination of the entire spectrum of visible wavelengths, there is likely something in there which is bound to 'catch' one's eye... reflected on the way back t to the eye...i.e as reflected white light from say water droplets in the air?...as when one turns on the high-beams in thick fog only to gasp and suddently lose completely one's spatial awarenss?....Airplane pilots train for this scenario often as it's even more readily apparent at certain altitudes and when staring at a decreasinig horizon at dusk for long periods of time.

 

Very nice descriptive most certainly Tsi+Wrx...!

Thanks for the response guys.

 

After reading your well-written replies. I am guessing that only a well positioned fog light will be good. And the only way to achieve that is to go aftermarket right? And you guys are right, i wish to keep my car as stock as possible. I think i will save the money.

I am guessing that only a well positioned fog light will be good. And the only way to achieve that is to go aftermarket right?

 

And that's where it gets tricky.

 

What's "good?"

 

If you live in a truly dense-fog area or an area that sees routine true white-out conditions, your definition of "good" will be different from someone who lives in another area, who doesn't see those concerns or sees them truly infrequently - and as such, your lighting choices, be it to be optimized for dense-fog use or for white-outs, will again differ.

 

For me, I don't see dense fog at all - it's more the slush and crud that accumulates on the side of the road that makes my winter driving more difficult, and at the same time, the harsh wintertime road treatments and repeated surface clearing can cause lane lines to become quickly obscured during the other seasons, which makes for driving in the rain, with surrounding traffic, a bit of a fun experience.

 

So, my lighting modifications specifically address such issues - I've re-aimed my factory fogs and use yellow/amber to achieve better lane delineation and depth perception. I use an overwattage incandescent not only to get more light (and thus somewhat compensate for the fact that I've chosen to use yellow/filtered light) to setup, but also so that my low-positioned factory fogs will have enough heat to somewhat "self-clear" (this, along with my usage of the fogs, made HIDs impractical for this specific application, and yes, I did actually try it , I can photograph my taken-off H3-4300K HIDs, as proof!). I have fitted - and use - a rear fog, when the situation merits.

 

Will this setup work well for someone else?

 

Maybe yes, maybe no.

 

For example, my wife?

 

All those considerations and extra switch-gear would only confuse her. She'd do much better just focusing on the task at-hand (i.e. driving), and letting the factory low-beams do their job. Instead, given her usual commute, she's more concerned with immediate foreground/foreground-periphery lighting, so my upgrades to her SH-Forester's factory fogs are targeted with that in-mind.

 

Would that suit my foul-weather needs? Definitely, no.

 

But then again, when the weather's bad, I'm most often in my car, or with Anna safely tucked away in the back.

 

Different needs, different solutions.

 

And you guys are right, i wish to keep my car as stock as possible.

And I honestly think that's where it gets most tricky - or, at the very least, where your compromises will mainly come from.

 

It's not that you can't get acceptable performance from the fogs - even the factory fogs - when they're in that position, it's just that you do have to expect at least some level of compromise, which may or may not be able to be overcome with your own specific modifications/setup.

^Thanks for the detailed response TSi+WRX

 

I have experienced driving during a winter storm in Washington and I manage to survive through it; even though I was driving at a painstaking 20-30miles/hr for like 1.5hours. However, I am hoping that the fog lights will helped me be better equipped for this up coming winter.

 

Are you saying that the factory fog lights are able to do their job? But just not as well as an aftermarket version? Or I have to tweak it to my liking? I always assumed that the fog lights just help people see better in the fog and thats about it. There isn't a need to re-aim the lights or even change the bulbs.

^Thanks for the detailed response TSi+WRX

 

No problem, glad to be of-assistance.

 

I have experienced driving during a winter storm in Washington and I manage to survive through it; even though I was driving at a painstaking 20-30miles/hr for like 1.5hours. However, I am hoping that the fog lights will helped me be better equipped for this up coming winter.

 

Truthfully, in a blinding storm, you're going to be at-a-crawl, no matter what. It's not going to be just about what you can see, but also surrounding traffic.

 

With good winter tires, if the opportunity presents itself, you can get a jump on the rest of your surrounding traffic, and then stay between the main traffic pockets, but when you're stuck in traffic, there's really not much you can do, except to pray that someone else doesn't hit you (and that's where the rear fog kicks in).

 

For me, in terms of the winter, my "reconfigured" front fogs are more for those times when the roads are messily plowed (i.e. plowed, but there's still snow coming down), so that I can "survive" better - since they don't throw very far (and they're not really supposed to, by-design), their role is at reduced speeds.

 

Are you saying that the factory fog lights are able to do their job? But just not as well as an aftermarket version? Or I have to tweak it to my liking?

 

Yes, yes, and yes.

 

The factory fogs are placed low and wide, and that, to an extent, already helps their mission. However, truthfully, they're also a bit too low, and that means less-than-optimal performance for their intended "fog" role. Their lack of "brightness" (due to optics, bulb output, as well as wiring) is yet another shortcoming, but that's hard to balance, if you're in an area that sees either very dense fog or heavy snowfall. The factory setup is a basic performance compromise coupled with a styling/value-marketing statement.

 

With an aftermarket setup, at least the optics will be better - yes, their physical location will still be a compromise (as you're interested in keeping them where they're "supposed" to go, per the OEM solution), but you've at least addressed one of the main concerns. If you're willing to mount the unit(s) differently? All the better for performance, but I think that for those of us who do not use a specific-for-purpose (i.e. night rallys) external light-bar or other such mounting points, aesthetics do figure into the equation, at least somewhat, which may make certain placements less than desirable.

 

And to tweak it to your liking?

 

Certainly.

 

As with anything else, the factory lighting carries with it many compromises.

 

Does the force-fed BL/BP provide good power? Even compared against today's "performance sedans," it's not too shabby, particularly when pricing is factored into the equation. But how many of us decide to up the power output just a bit?

 

Are the RE92s decent tires? Some here don't think so, but at the same time, there are those, like myself and my wife, who've used RE92s for more than one winter season, and didn't find anything really wanting. Did I upgrade the tires, though, when the time came? You bet!

 

You can play with lighting the same way.

When I purchased my '09 3.0R I ordered the foglights w/ the sale - paid $240 for the set (ostensibly dealer cost), including a free simple install. Don't forget that you'll need the surrounding 'cans' -- believe this is how they're sold -- which are painted on the outside in your body color.