Timing belt advice needed - cam lock fail

In the middle of a timing belt change on my 2006 Outback XT. I used the Company23 cam lock tool for the driver side cams. As I was putting the new belt on, I noticed the alignment marks were slightly off. I had a photo of the marks lined up perfectly when I installed the cam lock tool and took off the old belt, so I know they rotated a bit - the tool allowed a small amount of cam rotation. No big deal I thought, I rotated it back into position and made sure the tool was locked down.

 

The problem is that no matter what I do, no matter how many times I adjust the marks back to being perfect, when I get the new belt on, the driver side cams look like they're one tooth off (the double lines no longer line up top cam to bottom cam). I spent a ton of time putting the belt on (4 times), somehow in the process of tightening everything down, there's rotation. Very frustrated now but don't want to destroy my motor. Anyone have advice how to get the belt on without any rotation?

 

By the way, the car only has 62k on it, I changed the belt due to age. The old belt looked brand new...wishing now I'd left it alone.

I think I figured out the cam issue - I had to remove the belt, reposition the cams, then rotate the driver side intake/exhaust cams just a tiny bit relative to each other so the belt would fit on tighter with one less tooth between cams. The lines aren't perfect but they're much closer than they were before. I had an extra tooth length of belt between cams before that very small rotation with everything lined up exactly.

 

Now the problem is I can't get the final roller on - not enough belt length to stretch it far enough to line up the bolt. I don't see obvious extra belt length in one of the other segments now. This is a Gates belt - didn't check it was the exact same length as the original Subaru belt. I've done timing belts on SOHC Volvos before and never had anywhere near this much trouble.

 

Is there anything to check or does it just take a huge amount of force up on the belt to get that roller on (this is the lower roller that's supposed to go on last after the belt)?

When the belt is in place and everything seems OK also check the mechanical marks on the sprockets against the expected marks on the block/head to ensure that it's completely correct. Markings on the belt may be wrong if you use the wrong marker as start marker.

 

And putting a new belt on a Subie with twin cam heads is a bit tricky considering that there are five sprockets that have to be perfectly aligned. It's a lot easier to do that with the engine out of the bay.

stupid question but did you recompress the belt tentioner after you took the belt off?

 

The single lines on the cam gear should line up with what is on the belt. In the fsm you can check the lines against the number of teeth there should be between the lines. The last time i did my timing belt i used these heavy spring clamps to hold the belt to the cam gears http://www.harborfreight.com/1-inch-heavy-duty-spring-clamp-66055.html to prevent the belt from slipping off bits that were already done. The idlers and doing it in the fsm order was the easiest for me.

 

Also assuming that you had to take off the litte cover for the avcs.... when you put the screws back dont go crazy becase you will strip threads.

 

Hang in therre and good luck

Do not worry about the lines on the belt, they mean nothing, they change position every time the belt goes around, odd number of teeth so the belt doesn't wear in the same spot.

 

Only worry about the marks on the gears.

 

OP I gather you have pulled the pin on the tensioner. Is that why you can't lift the belt over that lower idler ?

Thanks for the replies

 

I'm using a new tensioner, still has the pin inserted. I didn't bother trying to use the lines on the belt - I was only looking at the lines on the cam gears and crank gear.

 

The one time I got everything on, I noticed the tensioner was rotated all the way up (as it should be) and the belt was very tight in that area. Now there's a bit of slack there to allow the tensioner to move a bit. I need that slack to be on the bottom but with all the pulleys lined up. That's how things ended up misaligned the first time - got the needed slack from accidental rotation of the driver side lower cam.

With the pin style installed, I'd remove the belt, make sure the gears are lined up exactly and then put the belt back on, lifting it over the lower pulley last.

 

Its been a while since I did it, but you need to rotate the crank a few times and make sure the marks line back up. I can't recall if thats before or after you pull the pin.

here's my Dayco belt, at this shot the pin is still installed.

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x40/92Si/Picture075.jpg

 

here's my cam alignment tool.

http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x40/92Si/Picture074.jpg

what is that long metal thing on the top cam gear?

Ok so I took the belt back off, removed the tensioner (pin still in it) and started over with some very helpful tips from a youtube video

 

Got everything lined up perfectly and back together, car started and seems to run fine. Here's what I learned:

 

- Using the alignment marks on the belt was crucial. I wasn't using them previously and as a result ended up with incorrect belt distribution between sections.

- First step (after double checking all cams lined up exactly right) was to put the belt on the crank pulley and then critical next step install the belt guide there to prevent the belt from hopping a tooth

- I had the lower toothed pulley and the passenger side upper roller installed, routed belt around roller and then positioned it on the passenger side upper cam, tighten belt guide.

- Install belt on passenger side lower cam sliding under belt guide (I never loosened that guide).

- Route belt over toothed pulley, line up belt mark on driver side lower cam, tighten down belt guide.

- Install tensioner (pin still in place)

- Slide belt under tensioner roller

- Position belt on driver side upper cam. I had positioned it prior to installing the tensioner to get a feel for how tight it would be and to be sure the driver side cams were lined up exactly as needed - required tiny (really tiny) adjustment with cam lock tool in place. Tiny but critical and keeping alignment marks lined up. It was very tight to pull into place on that last cam.

- Install lower roller - much easier than when I was trying before

- Install small upper roller on driver side

 

Had some other issues (rusty AC tensioner was not sliding), heard a faint high pitched whine/squeal noise after I started the engine which I'm hoping goes away, and had the Gates Chinese tensioner knock for the first minute which luckily I knew about. Kicking myself for not buying a better tensioner or trying to return the one I got.

 

I just could not get the belt installed following the Gates and Company23 instructions. The youtube process worked much better.

One other question occurred to me - everything I've read says to only rotate the driver side cams clockwise (engine rotation direction) to realign if they get out of position. I also read that you should never rotate both driver side cams at the same time if they're not aligned since there could be valve-to-valve contact. That part makes sense. But if you're only rotating one cam at a time, what would happen if you rotated one counterclockwise? I don't know of an issue rotating a cam lobe on a roller/bucket/etc (not sure what this motor uses for valve actuation) in the 'wrong' direction, but I also don't know how the variable timing mechanism works. I rotated the driver side exhaust cam counterclockwise (with the intake cam locked in place) maybe 30 degrees at one point during the job. Car is running with no CEL, but wondering why all the warnings about this - is it just to avoid bent valves, or am I missing something?

It's been a longtime since I did mine, but I do remember I had to rotate the drivers side cams. I know we talked about this years ago, but remember your only moving them a small amount. The pistons on that side are also in mid cylinder.

 

I seem to recall it was easy to figure out which way to turn the cams to get the marks to line up. remember you want to put pressure on the cam when you turn it, if it gets easier, your going the wrong way, to bring it back to where it was.

 

I did not rotate the cam all the way around.

Yup. The white lines on the belt are VERY important as they tell you, to the tooth that you are on the marks-hence the reason why they put them on. You can fight all day with it but those lines make the job MUCH easier.

see them. Know them. Use them.

..By the way, the car only has 62k on it, I changed the belt due to age. The old belt looked brand new...wishing now I'd left it alone.

 

What was the condition of the old tensioner and pulleys?

When I did mine, the passenger side cams kept moving a bit when I tightened everything down, causing the alignment marks to move.

 

I put a big bar clamp on the passenger side cams, tightened everything down, and those alignment marks didn't move a mm.

What was the condition of the old tensioner and pulleys?

 

The original Subaru tensioner and pulleys all looked visually good. Spinning them I noticed less resistance than the new rollers and tensioner roller. I did hear a slight intermittent squeaking from the front of the motor the last two days before I did the job and that noise is now gone, but I couldn't definitively say where it was coming from.

 

I would guess the age interval for the timing belt is related to possible rubber degrading, not anything to do with the pulleys or tensioner. My car has lived in a northern climate, the rubber timing belt still looked brand new. One of the accessory belts was showing cracks on the toothed side, the other one looked fine.

I've now driven the car around 20 miles. Runs smooth, makes boost, no codes, I monitored the AVCS with my Accessport, everything is good - BUT - what I thought was knock on the initial start is happening every cold start. It's bad for the first minute, hollow knocking noise from the driver side front of the engine, then gets quieter as it warms up but still slightly audible 2000-2500RPM. Did some looking on line - it sounds exactly like tensioner knock. Noticed a slight oil film around the piston prior to install. I should've stopped there. This is the Gates Chinese tensioner which they no longer sell in their kits. I'll be replacing with an NTN Japanese tensioner and will hopefully report back that the knock is gone (fingers crossed).

Here's a video of the knocking noise

 

Have you read this:

 

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/gates-timing-belt-kits-no-longer-oem-like-251587.html

Thanks - Yeah I did read the initial part of that thread a while back, can't access the Amazon link, but that thread along with two youtube videos showing the exact same noise convinced me the tensioner is to blame. Will know for certain on Friday. I bought the Gates kit in March but waited until November to install - I thought the tensioner would likely be ok. Sometimes a small percentage of failures can get blown out of proportion online - but in this case, I got burned.

Don't forget to put Loctitie Blue on the tensioner bolt.

Had a local shop install an NTN tensioner - noise is gone, car sounds (and runs) great. Confirms the Gates tensioner was defective out of the box. The shop noted the piston compressed too easily. They do over 100 Subaru timing belt installs every year...not sure if they used Loctite on the tensioner bolt - I did when I installed the Gates tensioner.