Official Interest In COBB Flex-Fuel for the Legacy GT Platform - Please speak up

For clarification, EcuTeK DOES NOT lock your ECM. EcuTeks original platform locked the ECM. That was the 02-05 WRX.

ONLY 02-05 WRX ECM ARE LOCKED BY ECUTEK. No other Subaru ECM's are locked by EcuTeK. It is a professional tuning platform and the tunes are locked by the tuner. Just like a professional tune on an AP. EcuTek does not advertise, market or sell their tuning software to anyone other than a verified pro tuner. Many opensource software platforms are a reverse engineering of the original EcuTeK software.

My 2010 3.6R under Ecutek was 'locked' (perhaps its not the correct term, but the net effect was the same, more on that below) and so is my brother's 2015 WRX, still running Ecutek (in his case the 'lock' is further compounded by the use of RaceROM features).

When I say 'locked' for the 2010 32-bit Denso ECU/ECM, I mean the default CAN bus SSM handshake/challenge/key was changed the moment an Ecutek reflash was written to the ECU/ECM EEPROM. This in turn prevented any third-party software from reading the ECU image (fine by me) but also Subaru's own SSM III and SSM IV and Flashwrite software from overwriting the Ecutek reflash with a stock flash, if I decided I wanted to go back to stock on my own, sell the car or go in for a recall reflash (not fine by me).

Now, there is 3rd party software out there that can a. read and save an Ecutek flash image from an Ecutek'ed car (its still encrypted though as it saves down, which is OK as I don't care for or want to steal anyone's intellectual property - tuner's or Ecutek's), including the embedded license info and b. overwrite an Ecutek'ed ECU/ECM flash with a stock flash, changing the handshake/challenge/key back to 'normal' Subaru default... allowing subsequent re-flashing with stock images and/or opensource tunes based off of compatible CALIDs.

The caveat on rolling back from an Ecutek tune WITHOUT Ecutek's suite/tuner kit or a trip to a Ecutek tuner is that once RaceROM is involved, things become substantially more complicated. As far as I know, and at least for now, there is no easy way to backup or remove a RaceROM'ed image from a 32-bit Denso or Hitachi ECU/ECM. Going back to stock is only possible via the Ecutek tuning suite (where a stock flash can be re-applied to a given car). RaceROM poses a challenge because typically sections of memory that are not used in the stock ROM or written in general are used to fit the RaceROM functionality (any/all) and write a sometimes larger than normal payload to the EEPROM.

Now - as you mentioned - tuners have the ability to 'lock' tunes on their own as well. Sometimes through proprietary software (encryption/decryption before writing to the ECU/ECM) and/or by something as simple as changing the ECUID/CALID (typically CALID) to something other than what Subaru expects for a given Model-year/engine/market combo (say change one digit or reverse two fields, etc.). Depending on the tools at hand, this can be done either with opensource or Ecutek.

If you already have a fuel pump (A Walbro is acceptable if you trust it) and injectors large enough to support the fueling requirements you do not need to change them.

On the EcuTek function, let me try to explain...

EcuTeK, just like Cobb changes the handshake as soon as a map/rom file is loaded into the ECM. Both companies do this. This is not new.

Because you must buy the AccessPort to be able to use Cobbs software you already have the tool required to flash back to stock. Cobb gives you the rom for free.

EcuTeK does not "force" you to buy the hardware. You can buy just the license for $345. It sounds like this is what you did and why you are "locked" out. If you also purchase an EcuTeK cable (the software required is free to download from EcuTeks site) for $350 your total purchase price is now about the same as an AP and you also have the tools to flash back to stock yourself. EcuTeK provides the stock maps to the Master Tuners for free. Delicious does not charge to hand over the stock map/rom. If your tuner does charge, shame on them.

Your tune can be handed over (on a thumb drive) by your tuner also. It is "locked" so you can not open it, modify it or copy it and sell it. But you have it and with the cable and free software you can flash back again.

For instance, many of the companies producing and selling S/C kits for the BRZ/FRS platform provide the map/rom on a second flash drive along with the EcuTek cable and license dongle.

You can have all the "power" just like Cobb, you just have to pay the price for the full suite, which is $695. If you want the cheaper route, you have less features. If you buy the full suite you have everything.

I have more than a few customers who opt for just the license because they drive the car, they dont tune it. They trust Bill to do his job and realize/accept that they do not know how to do it themselves. He also does not charge a returning customer for a relflash that does not involve tuning. We have flashed plenty of customers back to stock for them so that they can sell/trade in/etc. We have also flashed the cars back to their modified tunes once the customer has performed whatever work they needed to (for no charge).

If you already have a fuel pump (A Walbro is acceptable if you trust it) and injectors large enough to support the fueling requirements you do not need to change them.

 

 

On the EcuTek function, let me try to explain...

 

EcuTeK, just like Cobb changes the handshake as soon as a map/rom file is loaded into the ECM. Both companies do this. This is not new.

 

Because you must buy the AccessPort to be able to use Cobbs software you already have the tool required to flash back to stock. Cobb gives you the rom for free.

 

EcuTeK does not "force" you to buy the hardware. You can buy just the license for $345. It sounds like this is what you did and why you are "locked" out. If you also purchase an EcuTeK cable (the software required is free to download from EcuTeks site) for $350 your total purchase price is now about the same as an AP and you also have the tools to flash back to stock yourself. EcuTeK provides the stock maps to the Master Tuners for free. Delicious does not charge to hand over the stock map/rom. If your tuner does charge, shame on them.

 

Your tune can be handed over (on a thumb drive) by your tuner also. It is "locked" so you can not open it, modify it or copy it and sell it. But you have it and with the cable and free software you can flash back again.

 

For instance, many of the companies producing and selling S/C kits for the BRZ/FRS platform provide the map/rom on a second flash drive along with the EcuTek cable and license dongle.

 

You can have all the "power" just like Cobb, you just have to pay the price for the full suite, which is $695. If you want the cheaper route, you have less features. If you buy the full suite you have everything.

 

I have more than a few customers who opt for just the license because they drive the car, they dont tune it. They trust Bill to do his job and realize/accept that they do not know how to do it themselves. He also does not charge a returning customer for a relflash that does not involve tuning. We have flashed plenty of customers back to stock for them so that they can sell/trade in/etc. We have also flashed the cars back to their modified tunes once the customer has performed whatever work they needed to (for no charge).

With all this being said Mike, then which platform is better? With the changes Cobb is making regarding ATR we (the customer) may not have access to previously available features without additional cost.

Since there is no Cobb option for a Flex Fuel kit... your current option is Delicious.

As for which platform is better for Flex Fuel/tuning its a toss up. I lean towards EcuTeK for tuning, but have owned AP's too.

As I do not tune my cars and do not have an issue with using a lap top to log (if necessary) EcuTek is also cheaper for me too (as I already own a cable and 1 cable works on unlimited cars).

If you prefer the portability and function/features of the AP, its the choice for you. They do work just fine.

Since there is no Cobb option for a Flex Fuel kit... your current option is Delicious.

 

As for which platform is better for Flex Fuel/tuning its a toss up. I lean towards EcuTeK for tuning, but have owned AP's too.

 

As I do not tune my cars and do not have an issue with using a lap top to log (if necessary) EcuTek is also cheaper for me too (as I already own a cable and 1 cable works on unlimited cars).

 

If you prefer the portability and function/features of the AP, its the choice for you. They do work just fine.

Thank you for your honesty Mike, I already have an AP though I had previously purchased an EcuTeK license in preparation for a tune from Delicious. I don't know how familiar you are with Cobb and their current ATR debacle. What won the argument for me previously was the availability of the ATR at no additional cost, since I consider the ability and choice to tweak your tunes a must. I guess we'll see how things play out.

ATR does not give you the option of tweaking your tune unless the tuner left it "unlocked". A pro tune is "locked". All flex fuel tunes are pro tunes as Cobb will not be offering OTS FF maps. Unless you have a very special arrangement with your tuner you will not be getting any "unlocked" FF maps that would allow you to make changes.

Who would you hire a professional tuner and then feel they know better than the paid professional and attempt to make changes to the work??? Probably the same people who would then blame the tune and the tuner for any failures, but fail to mention the custom tweaking done after the fact. Not that I have ever seen that happen before...

ATR is for self tuners which is nice But it caused an issue with fakes Coob "tuners" flooding the market and screwing up peoples cars. Removing atr actually protects cobb's customers. if your cars blown up your less likely to buy a more parts.

You pay a tuner because of their experience a pro tune is a small price to pay when you consider what happens if something is wrong in your tune.

ATR does not give you the option of tweaking your tune unless the tuner left it "unlocked". A pro tune is "locked". All flex fuel tunes are pro tunes as Cobb will not be offering OTS FF maps. Unless you have a very special arrangement with your tuner you will not be getting any "unlocked" FF maps that would allow you to make changes.

 

Who would you hire a professional tuner and then feel they know better than the paid professional and attempt to make changes to the work??? Probably the same people who would then blame the tune and the tuner for any failures, but fail to mention the custom tweaking done after the fact. Not that I have ever seen that happen before...

I wasn't refering exclusively to changing protunes. Prior to getting a Subaru I tuned all my previous vehicles myself. I personally like having the option to do so. The LGT has been a lot of first for me. First car I take to a shop for example. I am also aware of the inherent risk associated with tuning, specially if you don't know what you are doing.

Based on the few details released by Cobb the ability to tune flex fuel will be released in the new version of ATR once you meet the requirements. Apparently taking a class and passing a test for an additional cost will qualify you to get access.

Cobbs business model is changing. They are no longer privately owned and the coporate changes have been taking effect for some time now.

"Rumor" is they will no longer offer OTS maps. They will no longer offer ATR. They will no longer support anyone other than authorized Pro-Tuners with software/tuning.

There is no money in selling Cobb parts. Cobb can not exist without selling parts. So, in order to convince Cobbs authorized distribution network to advertise and sell the products they are finally realizing they need to leave some meat on the bones. They are leaving the tuning as the "meat".

Notice there are no OTS maps for 2017 as of yet. Also what is available has been scaled down. No OTS maps for the Cobb intake anymore.

Cobbs business model is changing. They are no longer privately owned and the coporate changes have been taking effect for some time now.

 

"Rumor" is they will no longer offer OTS maps. They will no longer offer ATR. They will no longer support anyone other than authorized Pro-Tuners with software/tuning.

 

There is no money in selling Cobb parts. Cobb can not exist without selling parts. So, in order to convince Cobbs authorized distribution network to advertise and sell the products they are finally realizing they need to leave some meat on the bones. They are leaving the tuning as the "meat".

 

Notice there are no OTS maps for 2017 as of yet. Also what is available has been scaled down. No OTS maps for the Cobb intake anymore.

So basically the distributors selling the parts were making little money hence the tuning meat on the bones? I wonder how this will really play out. I'm assuming the cost of tuning will increase, since demand will also increase. Furthermore they will no longer allow a customer to simply buy the protune software unless you own or are connected to a shop, which I'm guessing will also need to be in the list of approved Cobb protuners. Better get my Delicious FF tune in before prices sky rocket.....

In any case I really don't see how this would boost the sale of parts. Yes you will extend your network of distributors but not necessarily increase sales. Essentially now with no OTS maps available an intake will cost you upwards of $600 since you would need a protune in order to use it and unless you live close to your shop of preference, then you no longer will be able to do installations yourself adding even more cost on top of it.

Furthermore, don't you think it will hurt shops just like yours in the long run Mike?

It wont boost the sale of parts. It keeps parts selling. Since there is no money in parts, kill off the OTS maps and tuning support so that the dealers can make the profit back on labor and give them incentive to push the product.

Also with all the changes going on for the past 2 years with California and CARB regulation many manufacturers (Cobb included) are running scared. The state has proven in court that the manufacturers are liable for products they sell and market in California when installed/used illegally on pollution controlled vehicles. "Off road use only" holds no weight. It is not the owners responsibility alone to follow the law. The manufactures are also responsible. Once CARB has the funding they say the next step is to go after the shops that install.

My shop will not last forever. No ones will in California if the state has their way. Many manufactures are already refusing to sell or ship CARB regulated products into California.

It wont boost the sale of parts. It keeps parts selling. Since there is no money in parts, kill off the OTS maps and tuning support so that the dealers can make the profit back on labor and give them incentive to push the product.

 

Also with all the changes going on for the past 2 years with California and CARB regulation many manufacturers (Cobb included) are running scared. The state has proven in court that the manufacturers are liable for products they sell and market in California when installed/used illegally on pollution controlled vehicles. "Off road use only" holds no weight. It is not the owners responsibility alone to follow the law. The manufactures are also responsible. Once CARB has the funding they say the next step is to go after the shops that install.

 

My shop will not last forever. No ones will in California if the state has their way. Many manufactures are already refusing to sell or ship CARB regulated products into California.

Wow, I was not aware things had gotten so out of hand, regarding CARB. My hope would be you have a successful business Mike. People with your level of honesty and quality of work in this industry are very few. I have to admit it is easier said than done and my money needs to back up what I say. Sometimes I wish working on cars wouldn't be therapeutic for me, I suspect you'd make a lot more money from me. In any case thank you for engaging with me in conversation.

Cobbs business model is changing. They are no longer privately owned and the coporate changes have been taking effect for some time now.

Who owns them now? Did they go public?

(I swear, you take a couple years off and suddenly everything changes. )

Being "honest" in the auto industry does not make you any money. Trust me. If CARB and BAR come down on us much harder it wont be long. Just having the dyno red flags the business. I have had to chase BAR away more than a few times when they try to come around and take pix of cars in my lot attempting to spy a missing cat they can fine me for (state law says I am supposed to report any cars at my shop that arrive modified outside legal limits). Yes, Cali is so F'd I am supposed to narc out my customers. Yeah, thats a good business model.

Cobb was purchased July 29, 2014 by the corporation that owns Auto Meter:

Chicago, Illinois, July 29, 2014 – Promus Equity Partners, LLC (“Promus”) and Auto Meter Products (“Auto Meter”) are pleased to announce the acquisition of COBB Tuning, LLC (“COBB”) of Austin, Texas.

Here is the press release:

http://www.promusequity.com/news.php

Being "honest" in the auto industry does not make you any money. Trust me. If CARB and BAR come down on us much harder it wont be long. Just having the dyno red flags the business. I have had to chase BAR away more than a few times when they try to come around and take pix of cars in my lot attempting to spy a missing cat they can fine me for (state law says I am supposed to report any cars at my shop that arrive modified outside legal limits). Yes, Cali is so F'd I am supposed to narc out my customers. Yeah, thats a good business model.

 

 

Cobb was purchased July 29, 2014 by the corporation that owns Auto Meter:

Chicago, Illinois, July 29, 2014 – Promus Equity Partners, LLC (“Promus”) and Auto Meter Products (“Auto Meter”) are pleased to announce the acquisition of COBB Tuning, LLC (“COBB”) of Austin, Texas.

Here is the press release:

http://www.promusequity.com/news.php

The more we talk the more I learn.

Thanks Mike

Being "honest" in the auto industry does not make you any money. Trust me. If CARB and BAR come down on us much harder it wont be long. Just having the dyno red flags the business. I have had to chase BAR away more than a few times when they try to come around and take pix of cars in my lot attempting to spy a missing cat they can fine me for (state law says I am supposed to report any cars at my shop that arrive modified outside legal limits). Yes, Cali is so F'd I am supposed to narc out my customers. Yeah, thats a good business model.

That's really sad.. Maybe it's time to move..

I actually meant me . In the same boat, but in norcal. On the other hand, have software job, wife has good job, she was born and raised here.

And the weather's pretty good too..

Its been time for a long time. Lol. I am only in Cali for my wife. Due to the business opposition and other changes going on in the state currently we are highly considering relocating in the next 12 months. I do not believe this is the place I want to raise my daughter and the wife now agrees.

Where would you move Mike? Arizona?

Where would you move Mike? Arizona?

I would like petition for the south side of Chicago. Just sayin...

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Plenty of software jobs in Texas. More than a few acquaintances have relocated to Texas in the last few years. My brother and sister in law just moved there a few months back. About 30 minutes outside Austin.

If its Arizona I would prefer the high desert. But that would not leave much work for me. The wife can find work anywhere. A Masters in Education with a specialty in early childhood/special needs with 16+ years experience finds work.

South Chicago sounds rough. Anything Chicago sounds rough. But at least its a town with some culture and character. I should be able to find or make my own work in Chicago.

I am from a small town (population 700). At this juncture in my life, I really miss the small town life.

Sorry for the thread jack. Back on topic. If there are questions I can answer, I will. If I dont know the answer, I will inquire.

Delicious posted the 08-09 Flex Fuel kits on their site. I must be rubbing off on Bill some because he wants to verify the line fitment on the 05-07 one more time (different fuel lines).

https://www.delicioustuning.com/node/595

A viable option that is available now for both Cobb and EcuTeK.

Plenty of software jobs in Texas. More than a few acquaintances have relocated to Texas in the last few years. My brother and sister in law just moved there a few months back. About 30 minutes outside Austin.

 

If its Arizona I would prefer the high desert. But that would not leave much work for me. The wife can find work anywhere. A Masters in Education with a specialty in early childhood/special needs with 16+ years experience finds work.

 

South Chicago sounds rough. Anything Chicago sounds rough. But at least its a town with some culture and character. I should be able to find or make my own work in Chicago.

 

I am from a small town (population 700). At this juncture in my life, I really miss the small town life.

 

Sorry for the thread jack. Back on topic. If there are questions I can answer, I will. If I dont know the answer, I will inquire.

 

Delicious posted the 08-09 Flex Fuel kits on their site. I must be rubbing off on Bill some because he wants to verify the line fitment on the 06-07 one more time (different fuel lines).

 

https://www.delicioustuning.com/node/595

 

A viable option that is available now for both Cobb and EcuTeK.

I lived in Dallas for a year when I was in my 20's and enyoyed it quite a bit. Getting back on topic though. Please let us now when fitment for the 06-07 is confirmed. I will be running the Delicious tuning kit.

Thanks.

Plenty of software jobs up here in WA too. And OR, from what I hear.

I'm told that our emissions rules are the same as CA, but I honestly have no idea because enforcement is on the honor system for most of the state, and the counties that do every-two-years testing don't test very hard and don't test 09-and-later cars at all.

Pre-09 cars basically just get a CEL & OBD2 function check. They ask the ECU if everything is OK. For any car with a decent tune, the ECU reports that everything is OK.

They will use the sniffer if they can't connect to your ECU, which almost never happens... And when Tracer-X (former member here) got sniffer tested, his Stage 2 sedan passed. Catted downpipe though. I suspect that a catless car would not pass that test. But I haven't had a single sniffer test in the 20 years since I sold my carbureted VW bug.