6th Gen Tuning Thread

 

That's what I used to think too. And with stock tunes, maybe. But having three very usable but completely different modes has been unexpectedly useful. It's much easier to chauffeur passengers around smoothly in I Mode. While S# solves many of my complaints about launching the CVT from traffic lights.

Surmiser - how would you describe your launch from stoplights? How's the car behave if you WOT it from a stop?

I just added a cat back exhaust and air filter, plus committed to using 92 octane fuel. Between that and XRT tuning I'm seeing some real good improvements.

One rom back I got a .4 second increase in 0-60. I'm now on later rom, v6a, and without a doubt it is faster than the v6... so... I'm expecting an even faster 0-60 from the latest logs.

XRT also has a lot of my CVT complaints dialed in. It's, upon my command, much more controllable vs. before optimization it was as is named - constant variable - always keeping the engine in efficiency mode. I can still keep the engine/cvt working efficiently without issue, but with the slight adjustment of the pedal the cvt becomes very predictable and controllable. Very easy to keep the car in power with little pedal work. Increments are about 500 rpms with little pedal down adjustments and it holds the rpms/power nicely vs. instantly dropping down gears taking the car out of power.

Huge drive ability improvement. Huge!

Some of the below info is the same as above, but this is what I posted in my thread over on XRT. There's charts with times over there too. http://www.xtremeracingtuning.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=101&t=691&p=2129#p2129

Happy to see these times, Ed. Good job! My butt dyno agrees. The v6a times have got to be better. If not, forget the times and just go with my butt dyno. LOL.

The rom v6a feels much stronger in the 3rd gear pulls, and the there is a good improvement from a stopped WOT run (drag pull). The car is really flying in the top end in v6a vs. v6. Again, 3rd gear pulls are a huge improvement over just the last rom, v6!

Pedal position is controlling where the CVT gearing is almost precisely now, where as before the CVT just had a mind of its own and would shift up to keep the engine in efficiency mode. Now I can still adjust pedal position for engine efficiency, but also adjust pedal position to hold the down shift for a good amount of time. It's the best of both worlds in regards to the CVT. It takes some of the VARIABLE out of constant variable, and gives some control to the driver. This is a huge drive ability improvement in my opinion.

Every version is getting better. As I was typing this I just got a v7. :shock: :shock: :twisted:

Will keep reporting back here as I have good updates.

... So Matt remapped my S# Mode. This means my 2.5 now has 3 SI Drive modes: I, S and S#. There's no icon to tell me when I'm in S#, and my car defaults to S whenever I kill the ignition (just like in all Subaru models with S#). ...

Great stuff, that’s a big win. The Aust spec models (our Foz SJ XT & ’16 Liberty 3.6R anyway) reverts to the last mode used prior to S# being selected (I or S) whenever the ign is switched off, which I like.

I agree about all 3 modes being useful – I wouldn’t like to be without any of them. And S# turns the '16 Aust spec 3.6 into a totally different car.

It would be good if the USDM owners could get this working.

Surmiser - how would you describe your launch from stoplights? How's the car behave if you WOT it from a stop?

What we could really use is a fundamentally different way to launch our cars, such as the launch control feature that's built into EcuTek.

In the absence of that, all we can do is max out throttle inputs, then wait for the revs to rise asap. That's what S# gives me. It's still a conventional approach. And still not ideal, but worlds better than what I had.

WOT from stop in S (stock tune) used to slowly roll me forwards while gradually building the revs. There was no way to speed up the process, and getting past 4k rpm was painful, though it was better after that point.

WOT from stop in S# (TH tune) now jerks me forward immediately. Then bogs down a bit as the transmission hooks up. And then picks up again with increasing urgency. Getting past 4k rpm is now a relatively brisk affair. Throttle response is so abrupt that I can't drive constantly in S#, which is why I find SI Mode so useful. It allows me to have an uncivilised mode just for fast launches and quick getaways, and two modes for regular driving. I couldn't imagine having to pick just one throttle map to use 24/7 because there really is no single best one that works for every situation.

One thing that's really helped with WOT launches is the Raceseng lightweight crank and water pump pulleys I installed a week ago. Revs rise faster so the car gets to the sweet spot sooner. I'll post separately about that mod.

What's WOT from stop like for you? Sorry I don't have any 0-60 times to compare yet. Haven't hit the dyno yet either.

It's really great that we're finally sharing experiences from different tuners here. It's a win for everyone.

The Aust spec models (our Foz SJ XT & ’16 Liberty 3.6R anyway) reverts to the last mode used prior to S# being selected (I or S) whenever the ign is switched off, which I like.

Sorry, that's what I meant but you explained it far better. When the ignition is off, my car does revert to whatever mode it was in before S# was selected.

What we could really use is a fundamentally different way to launch our cars, such as the launch control feature that's built into EcuTek.

 

In the absence of that, all we can do is max out throttle inputs, then wait for the revs to rise asap. That's what S# gives me. It's still a conventional approach. And still not ideal, but worlds better than what I had.

 

WOT from stop in S (stock tune) used to slowly roll me forwards while gradually building the revs. There was no way to speed up the process, and getting past 4k rpm was painful, though it was better after that point.

 

WOT from stop in S# (TH tune) now jerks me forward immediately. Then bogs down a bit as the transmission hooks up. And then picks up again with increasing urgency. Getting past 4k rpm is now a relatively brisk affair. Throttle response is so abrupt that I can't drive constantly in S#, which is why I find SI Mode so useful. It allows me to have an uncivilised mode just for fast launches and quick getaways, and two modes for regular driving. I couldn't imagine having to pick just one throttle map to use 24/7 because there really is no single best one that works for every situation.

 

One thing that's really helped with WOT launches is the Raceseng lightweight crank and water pump pulleys I installed a week ago. Revs rise faster so the car gets to the sweet spot sooner. I'll post separately about that mod.

 

What's WOT from stop like for you? Sorry I don't have any 0-60 times to compare yet. Haven't hit the dyno yet either.

 

It's really great that we're finally sharing experiences from different tuners here. It's a win for everyone.

 

 

 

Sorry, that's what I meant but you explained it far better. When the ignition is off, my car does revert to whatever mode it was in before S# was selected.

From what you're describing your take off in s# is how mine used to be in the earlier tunes. Jumpy.

I've really been focusing a lot of my attention and feedback to Ed (XRT) on CVT drive ability and take offs/low speed WOT hits as opposed to overall power, which has been increasing also but to me as the customer doesn't seem like the challenge for tuning my car.

Or in other words, for me and my habits, the tuning needs to be done in the areas we're discussing here (CVT optimization) more so than top end balls out power..... though it does all tie together in the end.

My take off and low speed WOT hits have changed 110% and the best rom I've gotten has only a couple tiny hiccups on a WOT take off from stop.

Here's how I can best describe it using an analogy (and the behavior is normal to other cars).

When I go WOT from a stop or slow speed in auto the car will now act like a human blowing up a large balloon. Think of how you would blow up a balloon and that's exactly how my car is now behaving.

Blowing up a large balloon I would take a deep breath, then release the air with fierce pressure until I had no air left.

That's exactly what is happening now when I push WOT from stop or very slow speed. The car hesitates (in a good way) as if it's take a deep breath, the RPM needle shoots up and power is applied, for the most part, very smoothly. Again, a couple hiccups but they are very minor.

The key here is that the car is taking WOT input and jamming that RPM needle into the power zone to be applied at take off.

If that doesn't make sense I can try to clarify a bit more.

Actually, Matt/TH discovered that my 2.5 not only had S# Mode in my stock tune, but that my S Mode button was already toggling between S and S#, just like on the 3.6 (makes sense since that allows Subaru to more easily reuse ECU code). But both maps were identical in my stock tune so toggling them was pointless.

 

So Matt remapped my S# Mode. This means my 2.5 now has 3 SI Drive modes: I, S and S#. There's no icon to tell me when I'm in S#, and my car defaults to S whenever I kill the ignition (just like in all Subaru models with S#).

 

I Mode was useless in my stock tune. So Matt made it like my original S Mode, but with all the benefits of I Mode such as lower cruising rpms. He then made my S Mode like an S# Mode, and my S# is strictly for crazy moments because it's not just touchy, it holds gears and revs when braking into turns, etc. So I actually find myself in I Mode most of the time now. Never thought I'd see the day.

 

My car was the first time Matt discovered the S# code in a tune that wasn't supposed to have it, so I think that's what got him started on seeing if he could activate the mode in other cars. But I think you'd really need some sort of hardware to toggle the modes.

 

And before all you USDM 2.5 folks go bugging Matt for S#, bear in mind that my car's made in Japan, doesn't have Eyesight, and has an ECU that Matt hadn't seen since he last tuned a Euro-spec Subaru. So it might be an unusual case. I hope not, for everyone's sakes, but best to moderate your expectations.

 

 

 

 

That's what I used to think too. And with stock tunes, maybe. But having three very usable but completely different modes has been unexpectedly useful. It's much easier to chauffeur passengers around smoothly in I Mode. While S# solves many of my complaints about launching the CVT from traffic lights.

For that kind of crazy driving wouldn't it be easier to flip over to manual mode and use the paddles?

I'm trying to picture what you're saying but it seems counter-productive for an automatic. If the CVT is efficient for that type of driving it should drop gears/revs while on the brake and then come back to your desired power (gear) with working of the throttle. No ?

Personally, I'm not about to watch 30 minutes of shitty video. Someone give me a TL;DW.

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Those longer videos were made for XRT to evaluate. They were long and not very clear because they weren't made to show perfection. They were made to try and highlight some positive points and one area that still needs tweaked. They were made for the tuner.

Power delivery from stop to WOT and slow roll to WOT is perfected. It's performing like I never thought it could. Video below to for viewing.

A lot of the tuning work, as I mention above, has been getting the CVT to behave in different ways. Some may like a little more control of the trans via the pedal, while others may like a little less.

I believe, for the ones that want a little less control, the tune for the 6th gen CVT is perfected and will only need to be tweaked per car/location etc. XRT can chime in on that.

I like to have more control over my throttle. This doesn't equate to a 'jumpy' car. Please don't confuse it for that.

Because I've kept mentioning this to Ed he came up with some test tunes and one of them really caught my attention. The behavior is perfect, total control of the CVT with the throttle. But there is still one tiny item that needs ironed out. Ed will get it figured out in no time and it's effect does not impact overall tweaking of the CVT control.

Ed / XRT has been up twice all night on the phone with me perfecting my tune. He is very passionate about tuning and perfecting and this shows in his customer service.

Here's some video that's shorter and really highlights what's been perfected in this venture. Notice how much faster v8a is vs. v7.

WOT take offs -

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phuMBWiwWoM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phuMBWiwWoM[/ame]

Mid To Top Optomized - This tune is good to go It has the WOT takeoff optimization in it. It only lacks a some better CVT control via the throttle. This is what I mentioned some may prefer. Less control vs. more control.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=To3-Iq-zE74]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=To3-Iq-zE74[/ame]

Example of CVT control via throttle - This is several tunes after WOT takeoffs were perfected -

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_jkyo-de6c]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_jkyo-de6c[/ame]

Well, I have officially begun tuning with XRT last night due to the lack of communication from Throttle happy.

What I can say is, in the short amount of time (weeks) he's been tuning the 6th gens opposed to throttle happy (years) he's already surpassing his tunes.

My previous tune with throttle happy was extremely, well, throttle happy.. The car was jumpy, hyper sensitive, there wasn't much drive ability at all.

My first night with XRT, he loaded a rom into my car, I drove around while he monitored the vehicle, had me pull off into a parking lot, made adjustments, and loaded an updated rom into the car.

Last night there were more roms loaded into my vehicle than throttle happy has loaded in six months.

As PDREALTOR has stated, there is a glorious rom that has some kinks to be worked out, but as far as acceleration it's a really really huge increase than anything I've loaded into this car before.. I'm very excited to continue working with XRT, and encourage you all to do the same.

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Well, I have officially begun tuning with XRT last night due to the lack of communication from Throttle happy.

 

What I can say is, in the short amount of time (weeks) he's been tuning the 6th gens opposed to throttle happy (years) he's already surpassing his tunes.

 

My previous tune with throttle happy was extremely, well, throttle happy.. The car was jumpy, hyper sensitive, there wasn't much drive ability at all.

 

My first night with XRT, he loaded a rom into my car, I drove around while he monitored the vehicle, had me pull off into a parking lot, made adjustments, and loaded an updated rom into the car.

 

Last night there were more roms loaded into my vehicle than throttle happy has loaded in six months.

 

As PDREALTOR has stated, there is a glorious rom that has some kinks to be worked out, but as far as acceleration it's a really really huge increase than anything I've loaded into this car before.. I'm very excited to continue working with XRT, and encourage you all to do the same.

 

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I am completely new to tuning and mods and haven't done anything yet (broke and scared but thats for another time) and was wondering do these tunes take place online or do i have to physically go and meet up with a tuner? If i must meet up can somebody suggest a god tuner in CT, Mass is cool too but will require me to wait an extra month or so.

Thanks to RobbieGT and PDREALTOR for the updates. I'm glad to see tuning getting more attention.

XRT, keep doing what you're doing and we'll probably be in touch after winter.

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As I am reading the posts here, it's really getting me interested in switching and seeing the difference in the tunes.

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As I am reading the posts here, it's really getting me interested in switching and seeing the difference in the tunes.

 

 

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He hasn't completely developed the 2.5 yet but I'm currently running a test map with some pretty good results thus far. He sent me a second one to test which I will be flashing in tomorrow.

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Keep us updated XRT! Fellow 2.5 owner here and I may be interested

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I believe I need the 2.5i now. I have one and he has limited time.

 

I would like to say thanks to those who participate in the 3.6 CVT program, especially PDRealtor. Thank you. Its been a fantastic ride and thank to those of you who have offered support publicly and privately. Those persons can tell you that I took things slowly in tuning and they was 100% communication - efficiently, effectively and productively.

 

I have started development for the 2.5i. I believe the 2.5i was created by another branch in Subie. Tuners now out of school. Its way more complex than the WRX, XV, 3.6 and others.

 

If any of you are willing to give of your time and videos like PDRealtor, I would appreciate it. I have limited time I can do such work, but the 2.5i I am being asked to give a little love too. I cannot do it with out you.

 

I am going to take a break today and just rest and chat with my XRT group. There are a bunch of good folks. Ahhh and we have one lady in the group. Its just fascinating to get up to international people talking 24hrs a day.

 

Again, Happy New years to everyone. Be safe.

Thanks Ed. You've been great. Cars running real nice and smooth. And, did I mention it's just a huge blast to drive??

Maybe I should remove my ski box and see how fast the car really is.

Headers and high - flow cats on the way.

Oh yes.... and some 5-40. :lol:

Thanks Ed. You've been great. Cars running real nice and smooth. And, did I mention it's just a huge blast to drive??

 

Maybe I should remove my ski box and see how fast the car really is.

 

Headers and high - flow cats on the way.

 

Oh yes.... and some 5-40. :lol:

Sounds like you've got bit by a few mod bugs

We here at XRT will keep you enabled :-)

we expect the same in return

We here at XRT will keep you enabled :-)

 

we expect the same in return

Deal....

All that is needed for PDReator is the ProCharger Supercharger or Raptor's SC kit.

 

Possibly for 2017,we will have 2x Gen 5 SC.

 

It is only fitting that for 2017, we have a Gen 6 2017 SC :) XRT-SC

I want this ....

LATEST UPDATE****

At this point I am no longer tuning with West_Minist. The latest revision of the 2.5i tune I received seemed okay at first but after almost 2 weeks of driving I was forced to go back to my stock rom. It was as if the car required 1/2 throttle just to move. Was very sluggish and almost a potential danger during interstate merging. Unfortunately for Ed, I feel the lack of "in person" tuning options with the 6th Gen prohibits him from being able to maximize his own potential. Everyone else he deals with that has 5th gen and below, love what he is able to do but from what he has said the CVT in the 6th Gen is very frustrating and difficult to approach. I no longer wish to use my financial investment as a test subject due to recent events after my most recent tune. So in short my assesment is as follows:

West_Minist (Ed)

Quick email/Message response times

Provides networking with other customers for troubleshooting/informative purposes

Uses Team Viewer to help if you dont understand what needs to be done

Willing to talk on the phone to work through issues

Strong desire to make customers happy

Lack of 6th Gen in person availability/tuning

"expirement" tunes (for 2.5i 6th gen)

not so stable tune

Throttle Happy (Matt)

Slow message response time

No networking

In person tuning on 6th gen 2.5i and 3.6R

No issues with tunes

proven/customer confirmed improvements

more stable tune

I AM NOT saying one is better than the other, this is simply my assessment of my personal experience of dealing with them both. My personal preference at this point is to deal with Matt because every tune I had received from him felt good, seemed stable and it makes me more comfortable knowing he has had the chance to tune the 6th gen in person on many occasions. Any questions feel free to let me know. Hope this will be helpful to someone!

**EDIT**

This is from my experiences with the 2.5i only. For any info in regards to comparing the 2 with the 3.6R, contact RobbieGT.

I been messaging you since then for your input and to even notifying you I had miss 2 maps that deals with the DBW or throttle response. I was continuing developing the definition to support your model, but I never got a response back from you, until again I emailed you, concerned about the lack of communication.

I will only reply once as I don't want to flood this thread with meaningless back and forth conversations. As I said to you in my most recent email, I responded to all of your messages in a timely manner. By the time I had received your email in regards to missing 2 maps that were affecting my car and the driveability, I had already removed your rom from my vehicle. Just like I said in my email to you, this is not an attack. I think you are a great person and you are good at what you do and people like you and support you. I'm doing what I had said I would do from the beginning and that is a comparison.

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I don't see it as an attached but not a fair response to my customer service and high communication. It was never meant to be driven on so long, once an issue was detected. This is what I want any tester to be away off. I believe a day after told you about ignition. Then last Monday I told you about the missing 2 dbw maps. I never see any replies, except it's OK etc. Nothing in detail and then disappear.

 

Reviewing bbm, you have retract all msg in our conversation after the first release of the rom v0.

 

Thank you very much. It was nice working with you.and robbiegt.

6 days ago I told you about the problem 1st occuring (attached), 3 days later you realized you "missed" 2 maps (attached) with no offered solution until yesterday when you said "I have a new Rom for you". At that point I had already removed the ROM and decided it may not be in my vehicles best interest to proceed. I said you had great customer service and excellent response times so I'm not sure what you're saying isnt fair? I am unfamiliar with BBM so when you deleted me from the groups, I deleted the chat you left between me and you as it is not useful to me anymore. Not sure what a retract is?

Not sure why you're only mentioning one version of the tune because I received V0 and V1 from you. attached are emails with logs from both and feedback on both. I recorded and sent 2 logs, then you asked for feedback which I gave you immediately and then waited 3 days for a solution so there is no issue on my end with communication.

Do you not have any logs at all? Some to show something?............................?

I don't have up-to-date logs worth sharing, but I do have a dyno run. Blue is the TH tune. Red is stock, done a few months ago. Weather was hotter for the newer run, but I used the same fuel for both. Takeda intake, stock exhaust:

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170108/624e20ff5e4adf113601fbe7720ac8d2.jpg

Unspectacular dyno results. Peak HP gain of only 5 or so, but the gains are quite consistent throughout the rev range. Dyno does show a slight dip below 3,760 rpm even though my butt doesn't feel it. Then again, the dyno numbers don't reflect the sheer drivability of the tune, with linear power delivery and sharper CVT behaviour. No bragging rights but the tune works where I need it - on the road.

Next year I have to really consider doing this type of tuning ... I just dont feel comfortable of a one pill for everyone. Some may gain, some may lose.

Actually, Matt custom-tuned my car in person, physically sitting next to me while I drove on the road, laptop plugged in. Log, stop, engine off, flash a new tune, engine on, move, log, rinse and repeat. Real-time logging reinforced by the actual feel of the car accelerating, and the sound of my engine. He didn't just tweak performance parameters. He adjusted brake pressure, cooling system kick-in point, etc.

It's true that Matt doesn't travel to the US, and therefore relies purely on remote tunes for US cars, which begin with a template base tune that is then tweaked as necessary.

However, Matt does fly to Asia (I'm a lot nearer to him), so folks here can either wait for him to come and then head straight for a road tune, or do what I did, which is start with a remote tune (Tactrix), and then refine it on the road when he's in town. The in-person road tune was a key reason I chose Matt over Ed, even though I was extremely impressed with Ed's communication and attitude.

For that kind of crazy driving wouldn't it be easier to flip over to manual mode and use the paddles?

 

I'm trying to picture what you're saying but it seems counter-productive for an automatic. If the CVT is efficient for that type of driving it should drop gears/revs while on the brake and then come back to your desired power (gear) with working of the throttle. No ?

For spirited driving, I prefer a gearbox that drops gears (downshifts) when I brake hard into a turn, so that I'm already in the power band whenever I get back on the throttle. BMW autos did this in sports mode as far back as the early 90s and I loved it. In normal driving, of course, it's more efficient to upshift (I assume this is what you meant by "drop gears/revs") into the turn, and only downshift upon throttle input.

As for flipping to manual, I find shifts crisper in auto mode and therefore prefer to use the paddles in auto mode. Even better that S# lets me dispense with paddles most of the time.