Alignment Mishap

So, as many of you may know I installed Mevotech Front control arms (basically a copy of the Spec B design), and 07 Spec B Bilstein struts and springs. I just got my 05 GT sedan back from a nearby Subaru dealership who I asked to align the car. To make a long story short the place is going to set records in pissing off customers. They had my car for three weeks with every excuse in the book and many that were never published. They told me how much trouble they were having with the rear alignment, supposedly tried dozens of camber bolts and what not. They kept telling me the shocks weren't right for the car, or the car was lowered causing positive camber(this causes negative camber), or my rear end was from a 99, my wheels weren't the right fitment, my control arms didn't fit right,.... basically anything Bill would say to Ted! So they texted me Friday and told me they finally finished the alignment and I can get my car. Picked it up today and now I see the alignment readout says I have +4.0 positive camber. I crawled under the car and see they did not touch even one damn bolt on the front end. The camber adjustment bolts are where I left them and they must have hit a curb pretty hard with my front lip because it is chewed up more than a politician's integrity. I can also see they were playing around in a parking lot because my tires got so hot they started to melt at some point. So before I walk into this dealership wearing a trench coat, sunglasses, and combat boots and carrying a SuperSoaker filled with goat semen, I need to figure out how to correct 4 degrees of positive camber. I doubt I can get that much adjustment out of the strut adjustment bolts. Does anyone have any products in mind? Maybe an eccentric bolt for the control arms?

Hey covertrussian!! Any ideas on a part that will get me 4 degrees of camber in the front??

Are you totally sure it has 4 degrees of positive camber, not caster?

 

4 degrees of positive camber would have the top of the tire noticeably sticking out much farther than the bottom. I'm not even totally sure how you'd do that with the stock suspension geometry.

 

Also how the hell does a four wheel alignment end up taking more time than "drop the car off in the morning, pick it up this afternoon"? If there are seized eccentric bolts, that usually means it's not gonna be aligned today, but otherwise everything is pretty easy.

 

 

Can you post the alignment sheet? Because it sounds pretty jacked up and you should go see another shop.

It isn't stock. It has 07 Spec B struts and springs. The car is an 05 GT. And yes you can see the tops of the tires protrude from the wheel wells. The shop had it for that long because they wanted to replace crap that didn't need replacing and I wouldn't cave. Did you read all of the post?? Spec B style control arms and Spec B struts and springs. Does that add up to a stock suspension geometry in New York?

It isn't stock. It has 07 Spec B struts and springs. The car is an 05 GT. And yes you can see the tops of the tires protrude from the wheel wells. The shop had it for that long because they wanted to replace crap that didn't need replacing and I wouldn't cave. Did you read all of the post?? Spec B style control arms and Spec B struts and springs. Does that add up to a stock suspension geometry in New York?

 

I did read your post. As far as actual work goes, an alignment, even on a lowered car where every single adjustment needed to be made, shouldn't take more than an hour or so.

 

 

SpecB struts are still stock equipment. You have the springs to go along with them, and I'm assuming you are running specB tophats as well. The knuckle is exactly the same between specB and GT. Unless your Mevotech aluminum LCA's are an inch shorter than the stock GT ones (doubtful since the axle length and track width are the same), then yes, your car absolutely still has stock suspension geometry, in New York as well as Wisconsin. Even if it was lowered, you still have stock suspension geometry, unless you also installed an anti lift/roll center correction kit.

 

Other people have installed SpecB LCA's on GT's, and I would assume someone would likely have mentioned having hilarious positive camber after install.

 

What I mean by "I don't know how four degrees of positive camber is possible on the stock suspension geometry" is that unless your control arms are a wildly different length than the steel ones (and they shouldn't be unless you have the wrong parts), something else on your car is fucked, because I don't even think +4 degrees (on both sides?!?) is possible at ride height with the camber adjustments cranked all the way out.

 

I also have a 2005 GT sedan, also on specB bilsteins, except I have swift springs on mine and the stock steel control arms. Didn't have any alignment issues aside from adjustment, and the stock camber bolts are enough to maintain a decent amount of negative camber (enough for 235s on 18x7.5 +38 to sit flush). By the way, since these are macpherson struts, they don't have much "natural" camber gain in compression/lowering, which is a big part of why lots of caster is important.

 

Again: Take it to a different shop that isn't staffed and managed by morons, and don't ever bring your car back to the previous one. Post the alignment printout, it should show the before/after measurements.

 

Or here's a thought, you could also just be a condescending dick to people that are trying to help you out and might be more knowledgeable than you are, that's totally cool as well and I'm just sure you're going to have great results there. But what the hell do I know about suspensions or fixing cars for that matter?

Spec.B gear on any 05-09 LGT still IS stock suspension geometry.

Spec.B gear on any 05-09 LGT still IS stock suspension geometry.

 

Even in New York?

Even in New York?

 

In most parts...may be not upstate...

 

Up state NY may be the same as northern Wisconsin by the Artic Circle...

 

Sorry, couldn't pass that up...

 

OP, you need to find a good alignment shop, not the dealership for this type work.

OP needs to post the alignment print-out. +4 camber is impossible. the car would like a model-t on the road. it would be visually obvious.

 

I dont know what shop would keep a car for 3 weeks in order to to do a 30min job.

In most parts...may be not upstate...

 

Up state NY may be the same as northern Wisconsin by the Artic Circle...

 

I forgot about the rare UNYDM/NWIDM (Upstate NY and Northern Wisconsin Domestic Market) submodels and their production differences.

 

OP needs to post the alignment print-out. +4 camber is impossible. the car would like a model-t on the road. it would be visually obvious.

 

I dont know what shop would keep a car for 3 weeks in order to do a 30min job.

 

Right? When my accord was aligned after I dumped it, it took 40 minutes, including finding some boards to help get it onto the rack, and the tech coming out to ask me if I was concerned if it scraped (I was not).

 

If I was told that they would be unable to align the car, I'd find out what the reason was, and pick my car up later that day to either fix the problem, or bring it somewhere else.

 

I'm thinking OP needs to post the printout, as well as some pictures of what I can only imagine is a demolished front suspension. 4 degrees positive is not just something that can be adjusted for. That's well into "inspect for component and frame damage" territory.

 

I can say with a good amount of certainty that there is at least one moron involved in this story.

+4 degrees camber is like upside-down hella-flush camber. it would be spotted 100yds away with the naked eye as a problem.

+4 degrees camber is like upside-down hella-flush camber. it would be spotted 100yds away with the naked eye as a problem.

 

http://www.clublexus.com/forums/attachments/gs-2nd-gen-1998-2005/246985d1337232463-pics-of-lowered-gs300s-with-positive-camber-positive-camber.png

Now that's just, silly ^^^^

Now that's just, silly ^^^^

 

In for pics of OP's car looking like that.

Why do people insist on ruining good cars?

I can't tell if you guys realized that pic Phate posted is clearly photoshopped. But in any case, I also have no idea why people insist on breaking their suspension setting so much negative camber that the car looks like it's waddling because it crapped itself.

 

(post-whore OT post for the day, since it seems you guys scared away the OP so soon)

Why do people insist on ruining good cars?

 

Pretty sure that lex is a shoop.

 

But maybe we'll get to see an alignment printout or some LGT suspension carnage soon:

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/4f/4ff4a8bc13db7fcfa279fceab12e79ed8d7189dbba8e529e3f179c68efb10e43.jpg

 

 

(post-whore OT post for the day, since it seems you guys scared away the OP so soon)

 

This is the internet, where the weak are killed and eaten. Even on it's worst day this forum is way more friendly than some of the other corners of the interweb I frequent.

 

It shouldn't be that hard of a concept: Don't be a dipshit, and people will help you out.

An 07 Spec B is heavier than an 05 GT. That means my car compresses the springs less. A suspensions geometry is set under load, therefore a lighter car will yield different geometry. And it isn't slightly lighter. Atleast a good 200 lbs or so. I've tuned suspensions off and on for over a decade. As for being condescending - I asked for suggestions of a camber bolt or such to correct this issue. Not for someone to question whether I knew the difference between camber and caster and to clue me in on how long an alignment should take. The shop provided me a loaner and I wasn't willing to pay more than the flat alignment fee. They dicked me around until they gave up. They were idiots for sure, but that has already been dealt with. As for the printout. I will post it when I find it. It showed that they corrected the rear and didn't touch the front. Didn't spin a single bolt from what I could tell. Everything was as I left it. Now does anyone have any realistic ideas or would you prefer to poke fun at someone asking for help and not ridicule?

An 07 Spec B is heavier than an 05 GT. That means my car compresses the springs less. A suspensions geometry is set under load, therefore a lighter car will yield different geometry. And it isn't slightly lighter. Atleast a good 200 lbs or so. I've tuned suspensions off and on for over a decade. As for being condescending - I asked for suggestions of a camber bolt or such to correct this issue. Not for someone to question whether I knew the difference between camber and caster and to clue me in on how long an alignment should take. The shop provided me a loaner and I wasn't willing to pay more than the flat alignment fee. They dicked me around until they gave up. They were idiots for sure, but that has already been dealt with. As for the printout. I will post it when I find it. It showed that they corrected the rear and didn't touch the front. Didn't spin a single bolt from what I could tell. Everything was as I left it. Now does anyone have any realistic ideas or would you prefer to poke fun at someone asking for help and not ridicule?

 

With your definition of "stock" geometry, my suspension geometry changes every time I have passengers, or load my car up with my guitar stuff, tools, etc. For all intents and purposes, the spec.B gear you have leaves you on a similar enough suspension to what the car shipped with, i.e. stock. Also, like stated earlier, 4deg of positive camber would stick out like a sore thumb. Is that how you left it when you brought it to this shop? Additionally... I'm not sure I'd even trust this shop to correctly use an alignment rack or report measurements given your description of them.

 

Pretty sure that lex is a shoop.

 

But maybe we'll get to see an alignment printout or some LGT suspension carnage soon:

 

<snip>

 

This is the internet, where the weak are killed and eaten. Even on it's worst day this forum is way more friendly than some of the other corners of the interweb I frequent.

 

It shouldn't be that hard of a concept: Don't be a dipshit, and people will help you out.

 

Oh, I'm well aware. This forum is worlds nicer and more helpful than pretty much everywhere else I frequent (without being too uptight and with healthy dose of camaraderie). I'm still puzzled why the OP took so much offense to your objectively helpful and well-mannered first post

I took off the blown stock struts and H&R springs that the previous owner had. Put on some used 07 Spec B struts and springs. Set the camber bolts to the exact spot they were prior. Then I took it to the worst Subaru dealership in the midwest and was told I had +4 to +5 degrees of positive camber all the way around. I was told by their senior tech that is was because my car was lowered. Then it was my wheels were the wrong fitment. Then it was the rear end looked like it came from a third gen. Then he said my new control arm bushings were torn. None of these were true. The only printout I got was the one with the bill. The first post was well mannered, but questioning a person's integrity is generally not helpful. I will get some pictures. I don't troll this site all day so it may take a day or two. And yes, if you add 200 lbs of weight to your car the geometry is different. Ever worked in an alignment shop? I have watched a Volvo with -3 degrees of rear camber almost zero out after the tech removed a floor jack, an alternator, and a gallon of coolant from the trunk.

An 07 Spec B is heavier than an 05 GT. That means my car compresses the springs less. A suspensions geometry is set under load, therefore a lighter car will yield different geometry. And it isn't slightly lighter. Atleast a good 200 lbs or so. I've tuned suspensions off and on for over a decade. As for being condescending - I asked for suggestions of a camber bolt or such to correct this issue. Not for someone to question whether I knew the difference between camber and caster and to clue me in on how long an alignment should take. The shop provided me a loaner and I wasn't willing to pay more than the flat alignment fee. They dicked me around until they gave up. They were idiots for sure, but that has already been dealt with. As for the printout. I will post it when I find it. It showed that they corrected the rear and didn't touch the front. Didn't spin a single bolt from what I could tell. Everything was as I left it. Now does anyone have any realistic ideas or would you prefer to poke fun at someone asking for help and not ridicule?

 

Okay, I'm going to (once again) provide you with the information you need, but I'm not going to be as nice about it.

 

 

Caster wasn't asked about because I thought you don't know the difference between the two. I asked about it because that's the only measurement in your front suspension that should be anywhere near four degrees positive, the words look similar, and are printed right the hell next to each other on an alignment printout.

 

4 degrees of positive camber at ride height isn't something that you can fix with camber bolts. It's visually obvious, the top of the tire is around 1.75 inches farther out than the bottom. It's not even something you should be able to get even with the camber bolts cranked as far positive as it will go. It's FAR into the category of "shit is fucked, double check that measurement and start looking for physical suspension/frame damage, also when was the last time I slid the car into a curb sideways".

 

Unless the idiots at the shop couldn't get a good measurement for your car, which is why you need to post the printout as well as a picture of how the front suspension looks. With a picture, we could all pretty easily say "no, that measurement is probably wrong, the front camber looks pretty much fine".

 

Your car still absolutely sits at a stock ride height and has stock suspension geometry. Yes, a GT is a bit lighter than a spec B, but go sit on one of the front fenders, and you'll see that it doesn't compress much farther. Since most of the weight difference in the B is from a 6 speed, and larger/heavier wheels, that difference is either unsprung, or somewhere near the front footwells. People sitting in the front of your car now makes it heavier/sitting lower than a B. Another thing that weighs more than a 5MT LGT is a GT with an automatic, which is closer to the weight of a B. In other words, nothing has changed. You did a stock upgrade (ish, I'm not super impressed by the specB bilsteins myself, too soft), but it's still a stock vehicle.

 

You have stock struts, stock pickup points, stock knuckles, stock balljoints, stock tie rods, and stock control arms. Guess what? Even if you had lowering springs or lift springs, that's still stock geometry, because the linkage never changed. Again, unless something is severely bent (which would either move the pickup points or shorten the pivot-to-pivot length of the control arm), your car is stock.

 

 

That was the help, mainly a rehash of what you were told before and didn't listen to. Now for the ridicule:

 

The first post was well mannered, but questioning a person's integrity is generally not helpful. I will get some pictures. I don't troll this site all day so it may take a day or two. And yes, if you add 200 lbs of weight to your car the geometry is different. Ever worked in an alignment shop? I have watched a Volvo with -3 degrees of rear camber almost zero out after the tech removed a floor jack, an alternator, and a gallon of coolant from the trunk.

 

Where did I question your integrity? Was it where I said those numbers were insane, but could be easily explained by just reading a printout wrong? Or was it where I was confused that a 30-45 minute job resulted in not having your car for weeks at a time, as opposed to immediately going "these people are completely clueless, I'm gonna not let them touch my car anymore"

 

Your incorrect concept of suspension geometry, and the fact that you think 4 degrees positive is something a camber bolt will remedy makes your statement that you've "tuned suspensions on and off road for over a decade" highly suspect. Macfailson struts are not big on camber change like a double a arm, since only the lower balljoint moves in an arc. They also have pretty shit travel, but that's a topic for another discussion.

 

Did you read all of the post?? Spec B style control arms and Spec B struts and springs. Does that add up to a stock suspension geometry in New York?

 

Statements like this are ******* hilarious, especially since you are trying to be snippy when you don't understand the core concept of what you are talking about. As far as I know, my copy of Milliken's RCVD doesn't have special chapters for readers that live in upstate New York. Ditto for Puhn and Smith.

 

You generally seem to not know what the **** you're talking about, and should honestly sit the hell down and listen to what other people have to say instead of unsuccessfully trying to make others look foolish. There's nothing wrong with not knowing things, we were all there at one point in time, but the wait to improve yourself is not to talk out of your ass to the very people that know better than you.

Guess what Phate. I'm not asking you. I'm asking the forum. I don't give a crap what you believe. You have made up your mind about me and given me your every opinion. I don't care. Drop the crap. And as for listening to what "others" say, only a select few have given some actual suggestions and not tried their hardest to act like a big shot. Get the hell off of this post if all you are going to do is start crap.

Tell you what. I'll get off of this post. This is obviously going nowhere and isn't going to fix a damn thing. Thank you to those who tried to help. Thanks Max Capacity. Have fun being a douche Phallic.... err, I mean Phate. Toodles

Suspension geometry = the pivot angles and location/length of the control arms and ball joints. This dictates the motion ratio and camber curve. If you loaded an elephant into the trunk of your LGT, the suspension geometry would be the SAME. The only thing that would change would be your static alignment specs.

 

That being said, like people have suggested, +4 degrees front camber is not possible with any stock hardware in any configuration unless something is wildly wrong. I took my spec.B suspension directly off my car and watched it go onto an MT LGT (lighter than your car slightly) and the front camber was within 0.5 degrees of where we started. Even when you dump the rear end of our cars, which has a pretty aggressive camber curve at the top of it's travel, you still only see about a -1.5 degree change from the change in ride height, nothing in the neighborhood of 4 degrees.

 

If you'd like some genuine help with this issue there are people here who will help you, but right now this is all speculation, we need facts to help you. Show us an alignment printout and a picture of your car as it sits right now and we can get started.

 

Best of luck with fixing this issue.

Guess what Phate. I'm not asking you. I'm asking the forum. I don't give a crap what you believe. You have made up your mind about me and given me your every opinion. I don't care. Drop the crap. And as for listening to what "others" say, only a select few have given some actual suggestions and not tried their hardest to act like a big shot. Get the hell off of this post if all you are going to do is start crap.

 

I didn't come here to start shit with you, if you remember correctly I actually was the first one to respond and help you. And if you read through the other suggestions, they line up with exactly what I told you in the first and second posts in this thread: That you should post a picture of the car/alignment printout, and that your numbers were MASSIVELY jacked up and need to find a new shop ASAP. MaxCap echoed that suggestion. Whitetiger and Scoobyscoodle stated the same thing I did about +4 degrees of positive camber.

 

You responded by trying to make me look stupid "did you even read what I wrote?", making a snarky remark about not knowing what I'm talking about because of where I live "Does that add up to stock suspension geometry in New York?". You put your foot in your mouth because that combination of stock components absolutely does add up to stock suspension geometry. No idea where all the salt came from on your end.

 

Don't try to take the high road dude, you came at me. If you're going to be an asshole, just own it, but be ready to encounter someone who is better at it than you. Otherwise just be normal and don't, it's pretty simple. And going for the dick references? Come on dude, you know you're better than that.

 

 

And I have far from given you my every opinion.