What did we do wrong? Detonation? She knocks :(

https://sunwestautoinc.com/

 

No options per se, but I do think they will do a custom build if you call them. Otherwise they sell a blueprinted reman short block with forged internals and ARP head studs for $2500

 

For the standard OE+ short block it looks like a $500 core charge up front, plus $260 shipping, customer pays return shipping.

 

The forged block includes free round trip shipping though. That actually makes the forged one look pretty damn appealing. $520 in shipping means you're gonna be at about $1720+ anyway... Add ARP studs and you're at $1900. Even more if they do not give you the full core back, which depends on the condition of your core.

 

So $500-600 gets you Manley rods and pistons and a block rated for 500-550 whp (plus some cool red wrist pins lol). The OE+ block comes with a 12mo/12k warranty. Not sure about the forged one. I am going to call them tomorrow to try to get more information.

 

EDIT:No warranty on the built motor.

Edited July 22, 2019 by SageAbkatsor

it looks like you only pay to send them the core! so its only 260 one time. 1200 + 500 deposit gets u a rebuilt engine.

 

sites a little confusing i added an engine to the cart and went to checkout and it never added on this 500 dollar core charge. I was trying to see if they charge for shipping, looks like shipping is free, but you have to pay to ship the core to them.

 

I would not sell my core for 500 bucks..... heres the kicker.. they only want one that can be rebuilt! So if your engine is fubar then u get nothing back and they probably keep your engine anyway, because why would you pay to send back a busted motor. Plus its up to them to figure out if they want to give your back your money or core.... so that leaves to much room on the table for bullsh**.

 

1700 bucks isn't bad either, but you can get one new for that same price from the dealership. so your pretty much back to square one at that point.

 

I would take the shortblock completely apart, i'm talking split the block, look at the crankshaft bearings, inspect the sidewalls, .. see whats actually going on. and now that you have split the block, put all the bolts and random things in a ziplock bag, you have reduced the work for the machine shop and only have to pay to reassemble, you can pay like 500-1000 bucks to have it rebuilt with like 1k worth of quality parts and have a 500hp motor for 2k or less.

Edited July 22, 2019 by Tehnation

The ringland failure was due to detonation. You need to make sure once its back together that issue was resolved.

https://sunwestautoinc.com/

 

No options per se, but I do think they will do a custom build if you call them. Otherwise they sell a blueprinted reman short block with forged internals and ARP head studs for $2500

 

For the standard OE+ short block it looks like a $500 core charge up front, plus $260 shipping, customer pays return shipping.

 

The forged block includes free round trip shipping though. That actually makes the forged one look pretty damn appealing. $520 in shipping means you're gonna be at about $1720+ anyway... Add ARP studs and you're at $1900. Even more if they do not give you the full core back, which depends on the condition of your core.

 

So $500-600 gets you Manley rods and pistons and a block rated for 500-550 whp (plus some cool red wrist pins lol). The OE+ block comes with a 12mo/12k warranty. Not sure about the forged one. I am going to call them tomorrow to try to get more information.

 

EDIT:No warranty on the built motor.

 

Personally, I wouldn't go anywhere near an engine building company that provides no warranty on their work (at least for the forged block as mentioned).

The ringland failure was due to detonation. You need to make sure once its back together that issue was resolved.

 

Yep, but we could not determine why this happened. It ran fine with a new plug, even with the damaged ringland.

 

What could have damaged the spark plug except pieces of piston/ring? What but detonation could have cause the ringland to fail? Why is it not detonating with the new plug if something else was the issue?

 

It is like an episode of Dark... The cycle repeats itself ad nauseum

 

At this point we wont know until we put it back together. But if anyone has any ideas that we should look into I am all ears. The only thing we haven't tested is injectors and the fuel itself, but again it rans fine (minus the knock of course) once that cyl 3 plug had been replaced. The tune is also a variable, but it ran fine for the last 5k and ran fine for the previous owner before that. It was the owner before him that had it tuned.

Well the machine shop I use here in town can do the work on the block and crank but would not assemble or balance it, which is what I would be looking for.

 

They would machine and assemble the cyl heads for 500-800, depending on the condition, which seems like a fairly standard rate.

 

The lack of warranty on the built motor would make me nervous too. I have not confirmed that but that is what their warranty classification document seems to imply. I emailed them for clarification. I would call but I have learned that sometimes it is best to have a document that can prove what was said in a correspondence.

 

With that said, I am an ultra low mileage driver (9k per year split between 3 vehicles), so I don't anticipate a warranty would do me a lot of good unless something happens in the first 3k, which is obviously possible... but the 12/12 warranty on the non-forged one is next to useless for me for this reason.

warranties usually only apply when a certified mechanic does the work.... buying a motor and putting it in yourself leaves a looooooot of gray area for someone to say "are you qualified?" is it my fault or your fault?

He is a certified Subaru tech, but I am paying him and not the shop and he is doing it off the clock. So yeah I had that concern. But he is doing it at the shop so I will have a repair order written that describes all work performed. There will just be no labor charge on the invoice. I’ll ask them how that works.

 

I think I am also going to have Sunwest do the cyl head work so it takes even more variability out of the repair. Would be hard for them to say we did something wrong when a certified Subaru tech just has to slap a prebuilt block and heads back together and time it. That’s a cakewalk.

 

I talked to Nick, I believe it was, at Sunwest and he said the engine must also be stock and cannot be tuned. He said my Perrin Turbo inlet, catted downpipe and catback exhaust were fine but the tune must be returned to stock which I have no issue with. I forgot to ask about my aftermarket oil pan and pickup, intercooler, and recirc valve.

 

Even self installed engines carry a 90 day 4K warranty but like you said it leaves a lot of grey area for them to say this or that was not installed correctly. I’m pretty sure I should be able to avoid that being he is a certified Subaru tech, but I’ll ask next time I speak to them.

 

https://sunwestautoinc.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/long-block-warranty.pdf

 

Nick also said they use these HGs, and that they put a really light layer of silicone on a hole for one of the oil drain back passageway, not sure which one.

 

Six Star Headgasket:

https://sunwestautoinc.com/product/656/

 

Call me crazy but the OEM turbo MLS gaskets are not known for leaking anyway and adding silicone to block an oil passageway, even if it is just a drain back... no thanks. I’ll stick with my OE gaskets and keep the silicone off of them, even if that does invalidate the warranty (which Nick did not say anything about when I mentioned this wasn’t a weak point on the turbo engines). I am definitely interested in learning more about this if anyone else has heard of this modification.

 

I mean, an MLS gasket on the SOHC engines (which are of course known for HG failure) I have heard of but we always just use an OE turbo gasket in these cases. Anyone heard of these six star gaskets? I think I am skipping these

Edited July 23, 2019 by SageAbkatsor

I used to use Six Star to fix headgasket problems in the old 90's DOHC motors.

Last I knew they still made good stuff.

I would agree with not being comfortable with them using silicon to block an oil drain passageway, I just don't see that ending well for you.

 

Is your "catted" downpipe aftermarket or OEM? That's the one piece I would say you need a tune for. I believe you will overboost on a stock tune if you have one because of the reduced restriction in the exhaust flow.

It is an aftermarket which is why I mentioned it. A Perrin unit. I had the same thoughts. I’d be more comfortable with it being tuned properly as well

if they are doing the heads as well, why not get their longblock and call it a day? should equate to the same price i imagine, and the less work our tech of the year has to do =)

 

children shouldn't run with scissors..... so it's best to take it from them!

Partly because they want to use their aftermarket headgaskets and timing components and partly because they want to silicone an oil passage on the headgasket... I don’t trust like that.

 

But I may ask them how much to do that if I send them my gasket set and timing components and not silicone that passage. I would hope they can cut it down from their 3k price if they are not selling me a full timing kit or gaskets. But yes I had that thought.

 

Otherwise I am still looking for a machine shop around here who would machine and assemble my short block locally, kinda like your build.

forgot about the silicone/gasket stuff... yea its rare to see anyone on here complaining about hg on dohc... seems like something else will blow up before the hg in most cases lol.

 

they probably just applied this six star gasket across the board on all subaru motors because of the issues with the sohc.... six star probably gave them a good deal ... 120 dollars for hgs? whaaaaa

“We do not do turbo rebuilds here. I would not rebuild a VF40 since it is not worth the money. A VF40 is a small turbo and a very unreliable turbo. Also, rebuilding it will not be OEM so it will fail at a higher rate and not handle boost levels as well. I would suggest getting a VF52 even if it is a used OEM VF52. Most OEM turbo's last 100-150k miles. But most non OEM rebuilt turbo's we see last around 30k miles.”

 

A ‘reputable’ tuning shop in the area sent me this. While I get that maybe the VF40 is not necessarily the most reliable turbo, and it is a small turbo of course, rebuilt turbos only last 30k? And they would recommend a used turbo over a rebuilt one...? This seems like madness to me. If properly balanced and rebuilt with the right tools and the right parts, I cannot see why it cannot last as long as a new OEM one.

 

https://www.midwestturboconnection.com/product-p/20014.htm

“Our compressor wheels and turbine shaft/wheels are balanced individually by the manufacturer, however, we assemble the turbo components and balance them as a unit, which ensures years of trouble-free operation . This sets us apart from other turbo rebuilding shops, who save time on additional balancing. At Midwest Turbo Connection we feel that spending the extra time to have all the components balanced together is worthwhile, as you will get a better performing and longer lasting turbo.”

 

Seems like a solid company

Edited July 23, 2019 by SageAbkatsor

Exactly. I wonder how much they charge for their PCI timing kit. I don’t know anything about PCI but it is again another place where I don't think Subaru parts have an issues. The pistons and bearings are the primary weak points as far as I am concerned. Even the bearings I think is probably more just maintenance than anything. But, everyone seems to run ACL or king race bearings so I’ll just defer judgement on that one.

 

EDIT: $250 on sale - PCI-TS26328B

 

NEW TIMING BELT SET COMES WITH ALL IDLERS BELT AND ASIAN TENSIONER

 

You can have your “Asian” tensioner, whatever that means. I’ll stick with the OEM

Edited July 23, 2019 by SageAbkatsor

mmmm there might be some truth to what that guy said about the turbos.... ive gone through 4.. a lot of people on this forum go to a vf52 after their vf40 fails because it's just better overall. these vf40 turbos last like 70k miles i'd guess.... a lot of people have turbo issues before their first timing belt change so 100-150k is a stretch, not to say it doesn't happen but the oem vf40 is trash...

 

the problem is the market is flooded with cheap knockoffs or rebuilds, with poorly balanced and cheap cartridges sooo there is some truth to that lasting only 30k.

 

for rebuilt turbos, there aren't many options ive seen on this forum, theres bnr, who has mixed reviews, and jmp was playing with turbos as well not sure if he still provides rebuild service, people seemed happy with his stuff, but other than that not many vendors come on here to offer rebuilding service... which is strange, maybe i'll look over nasioc.. most places just sell oem off the shelf rebuilt ones or new oem ones for around 1200 bucks... core is worth ... not sure actually lol

 

but there is some truth to what they are saying

and the warranty on the rebuild service tells us everything, 1 year unlimited miles, thats basically saying 10-20k miles depending on how many miles u drive a year.... sooo your guaranteed a year which any shitty turbo could do. i don't think they are trying to pull a fast one either, it's just the nature of these turbos...

 

a vf40 with a better cartridge is the way to go if you rebuild, i think thats what jmp and bnr do

 

https://legacygt.com/forums/member.php?u=10316

 

https://legacygt.fandom.com/wiki/JMP_Turbos

 

see if he is still rebuilding!

JMP was recently advertising a rebuilt/customized VF46 in the classifieds.

 

 

https://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/mi-fresh-and-ready-go-custom-vf46-278936p2.html

 

 

I just bought a custom VF52 from him.

Looks like that sold. I talked with Midwest Turbo Connection again. I think am going to have them rebuild the VF40. Perhaps I am wrong, but I feel this company can rebuild a turbo that will last longer than the 30k the tuner advised me most rebuilds get, and with a strict maintenance schedule I hope to get much more.

 

I am at 150k running a VF40, and the turbo is not failed. While I have no idea if it has ever been replaced or rebuilt, I also have every suspicion that it has not been touched.

 

My new job may have me driving a lot more so I guess I will just keep you all posted with my anecdotes of success or failure in the next few years. At the very least I will add some more data points for the VF40.

 

EDIT: I sent JMP a message. I think I have been far too worried about warranties... No matter what the car should be tuned, which will void the warranty on the Sunwest block and many other options as well. A 1 year warranty does me next to no good anyway, so I need to stop thinking about warranty and meeting those requirements and making sure I do what is best...

 

While I do still think this Midwest Turbo Connection seems like a great service, if I am going to have the car tuned I may as well have JMP build it... If I can find a VF52 for the right price I would maybe even go that route and have JMP build that, but I am not necessarily looking to add all of the additional items something like that requires. But... its all apart right now.

Edited July 24, 2019 by SageAbkatsor

So I have been doing some learning again, dangerous I know.

 

Sunwest says this on their website for their OEM+ blocks

– NPR Teflon coated, Hyper-Eutectic (not cast) Pistons and rings

 

But what I am learning is that a Hyper-Eutectic Piston is in fact a cast piston, despite what they claim.

 

While this does not mean that the pistons are worse than stock, it does mean they are wrong, or lying... While I have read that it is possible to forge hyper-eutectic alloys, I am not seeing anywhere that states NPR is doing this. From the sounds of it, a hyper-eutectic forged piston would be quite expensive

 

A few questions I have as a result of this discovery and other information I have learned about hyper-eutectic alloys:

 

1. Does this actually improve the pistons ability to avoid ringland failure in detonation events? The added silicone matrix, while making the alloy stronger, also makes it more brittle. While they have great thermal expansion properties to keep clearances low, are they actually an improvement to Subaru pistons primary weak point, the ringland?

 

2. What are the stock pistons made of if not a cast hyper-eutectic aluminum alloy? Just a regular cast aluminum alloy with no silicone? I read some information, from 2004 I think it was, that the STI was using hyper-eutectic pistons from the factory. Maybe the primary issue is that they ARE hyper-eutectic. Maybe that is why Subaru piston's suffer this weakness in the first place.

 

3. Perhaps the teflon coating helps? This seems like a stretch. The teflon should be to provide low friction.

 

4. Are these pistons a good option as a stock replacement, and do they offer better protection against ringland failure than the OEM? NPR seems like a quality company and I have read a fair ammount of people having luck with them. I have read all about the downsides of forged and they are enough that these hyper eutectic pistons are appealing. I definitely don't want to go OEM, but are these hyper-eutectic pistons simply a one-for-one replacement over the OEM.

 

I will reach out to Sunwest for their answers, but would be curious if anyone else has any insight.

 

EDIT: Yep, stock pistons are hyper-eutectic. After the failure I saw with mine, I am hesitant to put another set in there. Would be great for the SOHC non-turbo motors if ever needed as these NPR pistons are not expensive. On a turbo motor... maybe not so much. I'll call NPR and talk to sunwest as well. I am really curious what they will say.

Edited July 25, 2019 by SageAbkatsor

Forged piston with detonation can break ringlands too, it just takes more detonation. The stock piston likely didn't break the ringland from one detonation event, it happened over a period of time.

 

It seems like you are very focused on stronger pistons to avoid the result (broken piston) but you should be focusing on avoiding the root cause (detonation)

i think he's in contact with cryo... probably just needs a good tune, that's usually the reason behind detonation. he bought someone else's problems, it's probably why they sold it... untuned mods will do it...

Forged piston with detonation can break ringlands too, it just takes more detonation. The stock piston likely didn't break the ringland from one detonation event, it happened over a period of time.

 

It seems like you are very focused on stronger pistons to avoid the result (broken piston) but you should be focusing on avoiding the root cause (detonation)

 

Fair enough. Like I said, there are enough downsides to forged that I don't think that I want to go that route.

 

I will be looking for a relatively conservative 91 tune. I also would like to install my AOS before it gets tuned as well.

 

If JMP rebuilds my turbo that will be one piece that will work against me in this regard. Small turbo + extra boost = higher IATs.

 

Maybe I need to look at intercoolers. I have the Perrin TMIC, I wonder if the Grimmspeed is better at handling heat soak. I think the difference is probably not worth it though.

the grimmspeed tmic is on the top of the food chain atm i believe. I just ordered one myself, there was a 10% off sale, usually costs $970

i think he's in contact with cryo... probably just needs a good tune, that's usually the reason behind detonation. he bought someone else's problems, it's probably why they sold it... untuned mods will do it...

 

Cryo? I am not in contact with Cryo, but I will contact them if I should be in contact with them, lol. I have not heard of this Cryo person. A tuner I presume?

 

The car is tuned, and not with an off the shelf COBB map. I have no idea who tuned it or what modifications were done before or after the tune though. No idea if it was a dyno tune or just something downloaded from somewhere. Definitely something I should have addressed sooner. But I was a very busy guy and the car ran well and was fun to drive, so it was something I neglected.

 

The guy I bought it from I don't think had any idea it was ready to let go. I don't blame him in the slightest. He was not a car guy, and I don't think he made any modifications. I blame only myself. The car has actually been relatively problem free, all things considered.

 

I think one of the big reasons he sold it is because it was leaking water through the roof rail. This is something that he did not tell me and it took me longer than it should have to put all of the pieces together. I had noticed the water stain on the A-pillar but it was relatively minor so I didn't think much of it. On more significant rains the A-Pillar would actually become wet and even drip. He had front weathertechs that he had forgotten to give me but was eventually able to meet up. With those installed, the driver's footwell no longer allowed for the water to evaporate, so it got soaked underneath the floor liner after a more significant rain. The water not only dripped off of the headliner above the A-pillar trim, but it would also run down the A-pillar trim, and into the carpeting at the front of the footwell. Now I saw why he had weathertechs but wasn't running them (or any floormat for that matter. With the weathertech out, it generally did not allow enough water in that evaporation would not take care of it. Still, with significant rains or extended rains (3 days or more), there was not enough sun to get the evaporation process going and enough water got in that it would get pretty soggy. Lots of testing sunroof drains ensued to no avail. Eventually I confirmed it was the roof rail.

 

I neglected to fix this until the engine went. Then I was just going to sell the car but I didn't have the heart for that. Once I decided I was going to have it fixed is when I finally buckled down and ripped the headliner out. Helped that I finally was leaving my job. Technically I did most of it on my last day of work, but finished it the following morning. Headliners can be stressful when crunched for time.

Edited July 25, 2019 by SageAbkatsor