Boost hitting way too late

2005 GT 5EAT

 

All stock

 

 

Step on the gas from a stop and wait ~8 seconds to hit 60mph. The power is completely flat until about 4k rpm but feels pretty good once underway. (This is quite a bit different than the 2005 GT wagon I owned a few years ago and I recall that car keeping pace with the newer GTO's of the time and feeling the power kick in closer to 3k rpm.)

 

I don't have a whole lot of experience with automatic turbo cars but I hear absolutely no turbo noises and no wastegate "whoosh" when lifting the throttle. My questions for this car are, do I have some vacuum line hooked up backwards? What would prevent these noises from happening?

 

 

I'm reinstalling AP on this car this evening so if there are logs or certain data I should be looking at or posting, let me know what it is.

 

Thank you.

Stock the peak boost should be around 13.5. Sounds like possibly the wastegate is stuck open or problem with the boost control system keeping the wastegate open.

How's your LV look? I wonder if you've got a ton of pulled timing below 4k-ish RPM.

I'm drawing a blank on what LV is.

Learned Values.

 

In BTSSM it looks like this.

Wow, I wish mine looked like that.

Figuring this is termed "Fine Knock Learn" in AP. It was zero across 20 miles of varied driving conditions and with a pull each from 1st to 2nd and from 2nd to 3rd.

 

I'm a bit confused about AP labeling for Boost Target and Boost but those values were 15 and 6.5 respectively.

 

I tend to agree with MilesA, and will look into the wastegate mechanicals.

 

Could there be something plumbed backward in the vacuum system that would cause this?

2005 GT 5EAT

 

All stock

 

 

Step on the gas from a stop and wait ~8 seconds to hit 60mph. The power is completely flat until about 4k rpm but feels pretty good once underway. (This is quite a bit different than the 2005 GT wagon I owned a few years ago and I recall that car keeping pace with the newer GTO's of the time and feeling the power kick in closer to 3k rpm.)

 

This sounds like the closed loop to open loop delay in stock tune. These cars will be very lean (not enough fuel) until about 4-5k rpm. After that delay turns off and the ECU finally gives it more fuel.

 

 

I don't have a whole lot of experience with automatic turbo cars but I hear absolutely no turbo noises and no wastegate "whoosh" when lifting the throttle. My questions for this car are, do I have some vacuum line hooked up backwards? What would prevent these noises from happening?

 

There is no turbo noises at all on the cars stock. Only cars with downpipes and intakes will start making those noises.

 

Hard to say about vacuum lines, there are a ton of them on these cars. But you might have a blown off vacuum line (happened to me recently).

 

I'm reinstalling AP on this car this evening so if there are logs or certain data I should be looking at or posting, let me know what it is.

 

Thank you.

 

I hate that AP doesn't let you log without running their tune. Try running a stage 0 tune, if they have one, which might disable the closed loop delay without increasing boost like stage 1 tune does.

This sounds like the closed loop to open loop delay in stock tune. These cars will be very lean (not enough fuel) until about 4-5k rpm. After that delay turns off and the ECU finally gives it more fuel.

Could be but doesn't the Cobb Stage 1 reflash take care of all that?

 

There is no turbo noises at all on the cars stock. Only cars with downpipes and intakes will start making those noises.

There should be something that's audible. Every turbo engine I've heard all had some type of noise that a turbocharger is present....even the low pressure turbos in Volvos can be heard, spool and wastegate.

 

Hard to say about vacuum lines, there are a ton of them on these cars. But you might have a blown off vacuum line (happened to me recently).

I'm more curious if something might have been installed backwards, namely the Purge Valve since it has a direction of flow printed on the valve body. The entire intake manifold/ TGV's were off to replace the rubber fuel lines and I could have made a small mistake along the way such as installing the valve backwards.

 

In your link you called it an "EVAP valve".

 

I hate that AP doesn't let you log without running their tune. Try running a stage 0 tune, if they have one, which might disable the closed loop delay without increasing boost like stage 1 tune does.

I'll look into what's on the AP for maps.

There should be something that's audible. Every turbo engine I've heard all had some type of noise that a turbocharger is present....even the low pressure turbos in Volvos can be heard, spool and wastegate.

 

You should be able to hear when the turbo has spooled through the stock intake, but it's very quiet. You won't hear much on throttle lift through the BPV, though. You won't hear the stock internal wastegate at all.

 

There should be something that's audible. Every turbo engine I've heard all had some type of noise that a turbocharger is present....even the low pressure turbos in Volvos can be heard, spool and wastegate.

 

 

I had a 2.0T v40 auto with just a K&N filter and MBC and it was awesome how loud the spool and wastegate were... spooled up so fast

 

my stock LGT is quiet as hell.. took me a while, but i'm okay with it now.

 

shes stock for now because im trying to seal her up properly before a tune.

 

do you have a boost leak?

 

correct me if im wrong but the low pressure volvo turbos were tiny, thus spooling up much quicker (especially with little "upgrades" like K&N, MBC )

Could be but doesn't the Cobb Stage 1 reflash take care of all that?

 

There should be something that's audible. Every turbo engine I've heard all had some type of noise that a turbocharger is present....even the low pressure turbos in Volvos can be heard, spool and wastegate.

 

I'm more curious if something might have been installed backwards, namely the Purge Valve since it has a direction of flow printed on the valve body. The entire intake manifold/ TGV's were off to replace the rubber fuel lines and I could have made a small mistake along the way such as installing the valve backwards.

 

In your link you called it an "EVAP valve".

 

 

I'll look into what's on the AP for maps.

 

 

Cobb Stage 1 should disable CL to OL delay, but I can't look at maps for friend's AP's because Access Tuner is behind a training-paywall now .

 

Stock these cars are super quiet, you really have to listen to hear anything. I think they did this on purpose since it's a luxury car (compared to WRX's).

 

Re: Something installed backwards, now that's very likely

I'm a bit confused about AP labeling for Boost Target and Boost but those values were 15 and 6.5 respectively.

 

I tend to agree with MilesA, and will look into the wastegate mechanicals.

 

Could there be something plumbed backward in the vacuum system that would cause this?

 

Wait it's only hitting 6.5psi? At least on the V3 Accessport, the gauges screen shows the min/max as well as the current value for anything you're monitoring. So if you're only showing a peak boost of 6.5psi that's why the car feels so slow, lol. That'd probably put things at "slightly more power than a 2.5 NA subaru", so 8-ish seconds to 60 sounds about right.

Seized (or significantly binding) wastegate actuator. Seems I need to find Fig. 73 for the factory turbo however more online searching tells me the factory actuator isn't available on its own.

 

What to do?

 

 

Phate - V2 displays min/max values.

Seized (or significantly binding) wastegate actuator. Seems I need to find Fig. 73 for the factory turbo however more online searching tells me the factory actuator isn't available on its own.

 

What to do?

Find someone with a trashed compatible turbo and swap actuators. Or maybe one of the turbo rebuilders could help you.

 

There are also aftermarket actuators from companies like TurboSmart. May have some tuning implications, though.

I'm half considering seeing what the one on my (shelved) VF52 looks like.

I also have a 2008 GT that is using, if I read the numbers correctly, a VF45.

 

Not overly worried about tuning an actuator if it ends up going that route...

Seized (or significantly binding) wastegate actuator. Seems I need to find Fig. 73 for the factory turbo however more online searching tells me the factory actuator isn't available on its own.

 

What to do?

 

 

Phate - V2 displays min/max values.

 

 

How much force does the wastegate actuator pull have? I have a turbo blanket that rests on the rod

It's binding. I grabbed the wastegate arm with a pair of slip joints and it took plenty of effort to get it to move.

 

Sounds to me like the actuator spring got past the plunger/ diaphragm and is contacting the actuator body internally.

Sounds about right. The stock wastegate spring pressure is around 7psi, which sounds close to your 6.5psi max boost pressure. At least it's stuck open, and not stuck closed

Agreed. Glass half full...

 

 

 

VF52 actuator not compatible. Will check the turbo on my 2008 after work.

 

I put some feelers out on here and on NABISCO. Hopefully someone has something.

 

There's a seller on eBay that has actuators. I'll try calling them sometime today. GY Turbo, if anyone's curious.

 

I find it perplexing that this item is not available on its own even though it bolts to the housing.

FWIW, I had this problem when I first got my wagon, and it turned out that the wastegate flapper had actually "walked out" of position, and not only wasn't sealing properly but was binding as well. The only solution for me was a new hot side. It happens every once in a while with these turbos.

Agreed. Glass half full...

 

 

 

VF52 actuator not compatible. Will check the turbo on my 2008 after work.

 

I put some feelers out on here and on NABISCO. Hopefully someone has something.

 

There's a seller on eBay that has actuators. I'll try calling them sometime today. GY Turbo, if anyone's curious.

 

I find it perplexing that this item is not available on its own even though it bolts to the housing.

 

Give JMP a call as well, he may have something laying around. IIRC, if all else fails, Kinugawa may make one.

It's binding. I grabbed the wastegate arm with a pair of slip joints and it took plenty of effort to get it to move.

 

Sounds to me like the actuator spring got past the plunger/ diaphragm and is contacting the actuator body internally.

 

FWIW, I had this problem when I first got my wagon, and it turned out that the wastegate flapper had actually "walked out" of position, and not only wasn't sealing properly but was binding as well. The only solution for me was a new hot side. It happens every once in a while with these turbos.

 

Coming here to say this, I've seen the "bearing" that the wastegate opens on cause the wastegate not to open or close properly (I think I hit 18psi on a 5psi gate) .

 

Fix was a new exhaust housing.

Give JMP a call as well, he may have something laying around...

 

Unfortunately he posted a "Hiatus" thread earlier today. I did still send a PM about an actuator.

 

 

 

Right now I have to disconnect the rod from the WG arm to see exactly what's binding. The noises I heard however were from the actuator and were very similar to a spring binding. Regardless, I have some work to do.

 

 

FWIW; I stumbled across a company in Ohio that has these actuators, albeit used, but they do have them. XSBoost Turbochargers

 

They also mentioned the WG bearing issue that can cause binding in the actuator function.

An easy way to find out is simply to disconnect the actuator rod from the flapper arm. If it moves freely you're probably okay. I would still pull the downpipe off for a visual inspection though... Ya never know.

 

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