OB in shop loaner is a 18 Impreza

My 15 OB is in the shop for them to diagnose my list of issues and I have an 18 Impreza with about 3,000 miles on it. My 15 OB has more miles but only in the 30's which in my book is low miles. What do I think of the Impreza.

 

1. It idles without any burps - my OB is in shop for bumpy idle
    
   
2. The trans has no juttering, no jumpiness,etc. but my OB does
    
   
3. On my driveway which has a grade to it, the Impreza sits in place while in gear. I had a thread about my OB drifting on my driveway while in gear.
   

 

I think that the 15 OB that I just bought should should do the same as the 18 Impreza or are my expectations to high? Considering my past experience, that of my past four cars they all had over 100,000 miles on them, idled smooth, etc. and I think an OB with only 38,000 on it should do the same? Or not???

 

My lumpy idle is when the temp is in the nineties and the current weather temps are a lot lower. I'm wondering if the car will exhibit the same symptoms for the tech?

My car is in the shop now as well and they also gave me an '18 Impreza as a loaner car.

 

The idle roughness is from the A/C - which is why it happens more in the hot weather as you mentioned. I've played around with this and when the idle becomes rough and you turn off the A/C, it immediately becomes perfectly smooth; turn it back on and it will be "rough" again. Rough is obviously subjective and I don't personally consider it defective in any way, but yours could obviously be different than my Legacy.

 

I did notice the Impreza was much smoother from a stop (I noticed this in an '18 forester as well). That just comes down to how they programed the accelerator. It is something they probably could fix for the OB, but they won't since it isn't broken.

 

As far as your last point. I would suggest using the brake to stop your car from drifting lol.

 

The biggest upgrade I noticed from my '17 Legacy to the '18 Impreza was how much more quiet the ride was. I was very impressed! I'm guessing once the legacy is on the new platform it will take a big reduction in road noise as well - although I wouldn't consider it loud by any means how it is now anyways.

 

As far as the smoothness at idle, I am guessing they can update the ECU to idle at a slightly higher RMP as that would get ride of any roughness you may feel.

You'll need to be more specific. Based on how you wrote the OP, it sounds like you only have one actual symptom that needs to be investigated: CVT jutter/jumpiness. I've got the following question, numbered with respect to your OP:

 

1. When does this happen, specifically. Does your engine stumble or do you simply feel a vibration and/or slight variation in the idle speed from time to time? The latter is normal; my Subarus have always had some MINOR lumpiness at idle.

 

1.1. crudzinskas could be explaining your problem away very simply - hurray!

 

1.2. With that said, it could be a difference in engine mount material, balance, or anything else Subaru might have focused more on recently. Subaru's main focus seems to obviously be safety and safety features; however, each new iteration of a model also comes with other improvements, based on what Subaru thinks (or hears/reads) that we want. Maybe they updated something on the component or software level to have the engine idle more smoothly.

 

2. Again, we need way more information. Do you mean that, from a stop, it jumps upon first accelerating? Or do you mean that the CVT can't seem to figure out which ratio it wants to be in, causing some judder or jumpiness during some instances (e.g., only at some RPM, load, decel, etc.)

 

2.1 My '14 FXT and '15 Legacy 2.5i both are a little touchy with stop-and-go. I've had to get used to this, because it seemed to be Subaru's MO since at least the '12 Impreza, which I test drove and found to be slow AND jumpy.

 

3. Are you describing behavior in which the in-gear idle power is sufficient to keep the '18 Impreza stationary on your inclined driveway, but the Outback rolls backwards in the same condition?

 

3.1. First, the obvious guess: Gravity...your Outback is several HUNDREDS of pounds heavier. Even though they each have differently-sized engines, I'd wager to guess that the available at-idle power-to-weight-ratio, in-gear, favors the Impreza.

 

3.2. Next, Subaru might have designed the newer Impreza with a better low-ratio state at idle, just for this reason. More likely, a design change was to give better shifting and launch capabilities. Who knows.

 

3.3. If you truly are having CVT issues, as inquired about above, then this could be related...maybe.

 

//

 

 

 

Even if the service writer puts everything down on paper perfectly for the tech, just how you posted your concerns here, I would expect to get your car back with one of the following:

 

1. We were not able to replicate. Let us know if it comes back.

 

2. We were not able to replicate, but we found a software update. We went ahead of applied that for you. Maybe it will take care of any issues you were experiencing.

 

3. We [didn't even test drive the vehicle sufficiently but we went ahead and] updated the computer (ECM/TCM/etc) for you - you should be good to go now.

 

Give us some more info and let us know what the dealer says.

My '18 Legacy is significantly quieter than the '16 Legacy loaner I got a while back. I am sure the new platform will be even better when the time comes. Also, they re-tuned the throttle on the '18s to be like that of the Impreza. Much sharper tip-in.

The OB is about 600 lbs heavier than the impreza to start with. And I think the 2.5 on an OB is pretty under powered for the size of the car.

 

While we were shopping for our OB, we test drove the forester and didn't like the throttle response.

That new acoustic insulated glass is awesome. Easily one of the best features I love on my '18 its damn effective. No wonder Mercedes S Class drivers have looked so calm to me driving their cars lol

Yep I know the AC is the cause but the Impreza doesn't skip a beat with the AC turned on. In fact it doesn't even skip a beat when you turn it on.

 

Subarus that have lumpy idles? I had a 95 legacy outback and I had it working and there was no lumpy idling. I had a 97 Outback Limited (transplanted a 2.2 into it) and it didn't have a lumpy idle.

 

I'm getting the feeling that I'm going to have to get used to some things that I didn't expect, to have to get used to.

 

 

My car is in the shop now as well and they also gave me an '18 Impreza as a loaner car.

 

The idle roughness is from the A/C - which is why it happens more in the hot weather as you mentioned. I've played around with this and when the idle becomes rough and you turn off the A/C, it immediately becomes perfectly smooth; turn it back on and it will be "rough" again. Rough is obviously subjective and I don't personally consider it defective in any way, but yours could obviously be different than my Legacy.

 

I did notice the Impreza was much smoother from a stop (I noticed this in an '18 forester as well). That just comes down to how they programed the accelerator. It is something they probably could fix for the OB, but they won't since it isn't broken.

 

As far as your last point. I would suggest using the brake to stop your car from drifting lol.

 

The biggest upgrade I noticed from my '17 Legacy to the '18 Impreza was how much more quiet the ride was. I was very impressed! I'm guessing once the legacy is on the new platform it will take a big reduction in road noise as well - although I wouldn't consider it loud by any means how it is now anyways.

 

As far as the smoothness at idle, I am guessing they can update the ECU to idle at a slightly higher RMP as that would get ride of any roughness you may feel.

It would be helpful if you were more descriptive. We can’t help you if we’re not speaking the same language.

Yes to number 3. In the 55 years I've lived in this location, every car with a healthy trans that I've owned could sit on the driveway in gear. I didn't do it long but the drift in the OB almost backed into my wife as she got out for the mail.

 

I'm guessing it is the modern way of doing things, probably saves an ounce of gas and I'll have to get accustomed to it. To have to put a "hill-hold" switch in the car must mean the engineers knew this would happen.

 

When I am sitting at a stop light and switch on the AC, I better have a good foot on the brake because it lunges ahead. Either the idle wants to be too high after that or too low...but it gets lumpy.

 

As for the CVT in the OB compared to the Impreza -- they are different and I like the CVT. I have not encountered any odd behavior and the thing doesn't roll backwards one bit on my driveway. I don't think I saw a hill hold switch?

 

 

You'll need to be more specific. Based on how you wrote the OP, it sounds like you only have one actual symptom that needs to be investigated: CVT jutter/jumpiness. I've got the following question, numbered with respect to your OP:

 

1. When does this happen, specifically. Does your engine stumble or do you simply feel a vibration and/or slight variation in the idle speed from time to time? The latter is normal; my Subarus have always had some MINOR lumpiness at idle.

 

1.1. crudzinskas could be explaining your problem away very simply - hurray!

 

1.2. With that said, it could be a difference in engine mount material, balance, or anything else Subaru might have focused more on recently. Subaru's main focus seems to obviously be safety and safety features; however, each new iteration of a model also comes with other improvements, based on what Subaru thinks (or hears/reads) that we want. Maybe they updated something on the component or software level to have the engine idle more smoothly.

 

2. Again, we need way more information. Do you mean that, from a stop, it jumps upon first accelerating? Or do you mean that the CVT can't seem to figure out which ratio it wants to be in, causing some judder or jumpiness during some instances (e.g., only at some RPM, load, decel, etc.)

 

2.1 My '14 FXT and '15 Legacy 2.5i both are a little touchy with stop-and-go. I've had to get used to this, because it seemed to be Subaru's MO since at least the '12 Impreza, which I test drove and found to be slow AND jumpy.

 

3. Are you describing behavior in which the in-gear idle power is sufficient to keep the '18 Impreza stationary on your inclined driveway, but the Outback rolls backwards in the same condition?

 

3.1. First, the obvious guess: Gravity...your Outback is several HUNDREDS of pounds heavier. Even though they each have differently-sized engines, I'd wager to guess that the available at-idle power-to-weight-ratio, in-gear, favors the Impreza.

 

3.2. Next, Subaru might have designed the newer Impreza with a better low-ratio state at idle, just for this reason. More likely, a design change was to give better shifting and launch capabilities. Who knows.

 

3.3. If you truly are having CVT issues, as inquired about above, then this could be related...maybe.

 

//

 

 

 

Even if the service writer puts everything down on paper perfectly for the tech, just how you posted your concerns here, I would expect to get your car back with one of the following:

 

1. We were not able to replicate. Let us know if it comes back.

 

2. We were not able to replicate, but we found a software update. We went ahead of applied that for you. Maybe it will take care of any issues you were experiencing.

 

3. We [didn't even test drive the vehicle sufficiently but we went ahead and] updated the computer (ECM/TCM/etc) for you - you should be good to go now.

 

Give us some more info and let us know what the dealer says.

No such thing as a hill-hold switch. It's a feature on every modern Subaru. When an incline is sensed, the brakes will remain held at whatever pressure you were holding them at after you let off the brakes and a timer has expires (usually a very short period of time.)

 

I wasn't used to this in my '08 manual Subaru and it caused me to stall a few times. Actually, if I'm being honest, it caused me to stalled a few times, even after I got used to the system! With CVT's, it's similar, but still only holds the vehicle for a very short period of time.

 

I'll give you a practical example for me, when I stop and wait for my garage door to open on my driveway, which is a slight incline:

 

1. Legacy: At idle, it will inch forward for a foot or two after I let off the gas. Afterward, it might inch back literally an inch or two, but usually holds, since it's such a low incline. Then, I give it some gas to slowly pull in to the garage.

 

2. Forester XT: At idle, it seems to stopdead when I let off the gas at the same spot as above, and stays where it is, until the garage door opens and I give it some gas to pull in.

No such thing as a hill-hold switch.

The 2015 Legacy/Outback Owners Manual (and my 2015 Legacy Premium) disagrees with you. See page 7-45.

The 2015 Legacy/Outback Owners Manual (and my 2015 Legacy Premium) disagrees with you. See page 7-45.

 

Context..

The 2015 Legacy/Outback Owners Manual (and my 2015 Legacy Premium) disagrees with you. See page 7-45.

 

Context..

 

I'm guessing it is the modern way of doing things, probably saves an ounce of gas and I'll have to get accustomed to it. To have to put a "hill-hold" switch in the car must mean the engineers knew this would happen.

 

This is the context /\, has nothing to do with the modern way of it and the Hill Holder feature isn't new. It's been around a long time

Yes the hill-holder switch does exist.

 

In the PDF it will be on page 16 of 580

 

9) Hill Holder switch (page 7-45)

 

 

 

https://cdn.subarunet.com/stis/doc/ownerManual/MSA5M1504ASTISvD.pdf

 

No such thing as a hill-hold switch. It's a feature on every modern Subaru. When an incline is sensed, the brakes will remain held at whatever pressure you were holding them at after you let off the brakes and a timer has expires (usually a very short period of time.)

 

I wasn't used to this in my '08 manual Subaru and it caused me to stall a few times. Actually, if I'm being honest, it caused me to stalled a few times, even after I got used to the system! With CVT's, it's similar, but still only holds the vehicle for a very short period of time.

 

I'll give you a practical example for me, when I stop and wait for my garage door to open on my driveway, which is a slight incline:

 

1. Legacy: At idle, it will inch forward for a foot or two after I let off the gas. Afterward, it might inch back literally an inch or two, but usually holds, since it's such a low incline. Then, I give it some gas to slowly pull in to the garage.

 

2. Forester XT: At idle, it seems to stopdead when I let off the gas at the same spot as above, and stays where it is, until the garage door opens and I give it some gas to pull in.

It would be helpful if you were more descriptive. We can’t help you if we’re not speaking the same language.

 

Here is what I gave to the dealer, where noted I removed dealer name.

 

Notes for tech

 

Of these complaints most are intermittent and intermittent is the worst to diagnose. Not sure if it will do it on the day you look at the car. I am afraid intermittent will turn into permanent.

 

1. After (name removed) installed the new radio I could no longer access my Sirius trial period. The new radio code disabled my trial period.

 

So on September 5th I purchased a Sirius unlimited subscription. The radio has never held the Sirius subscription. Every time I stop and start the car, I have to contact Sirius for a refresh code.

 

 

2. (Name removed) put coolant in the car in July, the coolant level in the reservoir has dropped since then. Can we find out why? Action was seen from beginning of ownership.

 

 

3. Intermittent

On the two occasions that the car sat for two days without being started this happened:

I got in, put my foot on the brake pedal and could barely press it down. It was as if someone had pumped the brake pedal while the car was off. I haven’t let the car sit for two days straight to see if it does it again.

 

 

4. Intermittent

On 90 degree days, sitting at a stop light, with AC is on high, the car does not idle smoothly. Action was seen from beginning of ownership.

 

 

5, The transmission will sometimes jitter when taking off from a stop. Then all of the sudden it catches and takes off. Sometimes when taking off from a stop it feels like it is slipping, jittering and then catches. Action was seen from beginning of ownership.

 

 

6. Intermittent

Using the button on the lift gate.

The lift gate will not open, it opens a bit, sits there, beeps three tis and then closes itself. After that it will open. It only does it once in a while but did it on Sept 16th and Sept 17th (recorded with phone). Action was seen from beginning of ownership. I notice that the lift gate seal, right where the latch is, the seal looks as if it was fixed (glued) by someone. There is actually wear on the lift gate itself where it mates with the fixed seal. Sticking point?

 

 

7. Intermittent

The ambient temperature shows an incorrect reading. It was over 90 degrees outside and the temperature indicator on the dash showed 76 degrees. It did this on several occasions when it was hot outside. I first noticed it the day (name removed) replaced the radio (August 2018).

The 2015 Legacy/Outback Owners Manual (and my 2015 Legacy Premium) disagrees with you. See page 7-45.

 

I re-read my previous post. I'm not sure what I was going for there, but what's written doesn't read how I intended it.

 

I was wrong - sorry for the confusion.

Not sure if every Legacy has a 'Hill Hold' switch, mine does.

 

And it has Adaptive Cruise.

 

Since it has both of those, if I am on an incline and I want to prevent the car from rolling, and to keep stress off the transmission, I either hold my foot on the brake, or use the hill hold switch (in conjunction with ACC).

 

I have zero expectation that I would keep my car in drive, keep my foot off the brake, and use the transmission to hold the car in place. Sounds like a good way to damage your transmission for exactly no good reason.

It isn't as though you are going to sit there and rely on the trans to hold you for a long time.

 

Imagine there is someone walking behind you and you have your foot on the brake. You want to go forward, you take your foot off the brake and the car rolls a foot backward. The person behind you may be in trouble and have a meeting with your car.

 

I get it, there are ways to not roll backward. Pretend it is a manual and use the left foot on the brake, use hill-hold, etc. but the point is that since my first day of driving in the 1960's automatic transmissions were designed to hold for a few moments. I guess it may be the lack of hydraulics and now all of the sudden these transmissions don't hold for a few seconds and IMHO it is a dangerous design. But why does the Impreza?

 

When I lived in SF there were plenty of hills and my cars never would have rolled backward like this one, on normal hills that is.

 

I'm guessing that to save weight the transmissions are not as robust as the old days and therefore it saves gas. Which less robust transmissions lead to this, a thread with 349 posts. --

 

https://www.subaruoutback.org/forums/66-problems-maintenance/429481-cvt-warranty-extension-2010-15-a-16.html

 

Not sure if every Legacy has a 'Hill Hold' switch, mine does.

 

And it has Adaptive Cruise.

 

Since it has both of those, if I am on an incline and I want to prevent the car from rolling, and to keep stress off the transmission, I either hold my foot on the brake, or use the hill hold switch (in conjunction with ACC).

 

I have zero expectation that I would keep my car in drive, keep my foot off the brake, and use the transmission to hold the car in place. Sounds like a good way to damage your transmission for exactly no good reason.

The hill-hold feature uses the brakes, if I'm not mistaken. I remember stalling out in my new-to-me '08 STI on the first dozen or so slight inclines, when I went to clutch out and give it some gas, but the brakes were still holding! lol I could NOT turn this feature off in my '08.

 

Maybe it's just me, but I've been in plenty of AT's that have trouble remaining stationary on steep inclines. There's a huge difference between rolling backward on a slight incline and doing so on one of the hills you see in SanFran!

It isn't as though you are going to sit there and rely on the trans to hold you for a long time.

 

Imagine there is someone walking behind you and you have your foot on the brake. You want to go forward, you take your foot off the brake and the car rolls a foot backward. The person behind you may be in trouble and have a meeting with your car.

 

I get it, there are ways to not roll backward. Pretend it is a manual and use the left foot on the brake, use hill-hold, etc. but the point is that since my first day of driving in the 1960's automatic transmissions were designed to hold for a few moments. I guess it may be the lack of hydraulics and now all of the sudden these transmissions don't hold for a few seconds and IMHO it is a dangerous design. But why does the Impreza?

 

When I lived in SF there were plenty of hills and my cars never would have rolled backward like this one, on normal hills that is.

 

I'm guessing that to save weight the transmissions are not as robust as the old days and therefore it saves gas. Which less robust transmissions lead to this, a thread with 349 posts. --

 

https://www.subaruoutback.org/forums/66-problems-maintenance/429481-cvt-warranty-extension-2010-15-a-16.html

 

Do you actually have a clue as to what you're talking about? No they weren't designed to hold on a hill. Some do some don't. Sometimes the same vehicle does or doesn't.

So many variables.... curb weight of the impreza is about 600lbs less than the ob, could play a part, who knows. Out of bored curiosity I just did some random google searches about AT cars rolling backwards in drive, and there were a ton of results.. It's not fair to criticize Subaru and the OB when this seems to happen in a lot of cars, maybe it's more of an issue with CVT's than traditional AT's, who knows... Some people were also talking about the amount of torque created at idle playing a part, among other things..

Why yes after owning 14 cars over the past 50 years, I think I can say that there is a wee bit of experience in what I said.

 

The 2015 OB is my newest car, I normally buy cars of an older vintage. And yes, it was normally considered a normal function on older cars for them not to roll backward. Now I'm not talking about some 35 degree incline but the OB can't / won't hold on a minimal incline. If they did start to roll backward, the trans/idle set-up was starting to age.

 

From what I am reading it is all part of the fuel efficiency model. I guess it is what we are accustomed to driving? I have to agree with the quotation...I still don't like it.

 

"The same behavior drove me crazy (still does, I guess) when I bought a 2001 Honda Odyssey as a replacement for an older Town and Country. I was surprised to find a note of explanation in the manual: The torque converter is designed with additional slippage as a way to reduce fuel consumption at idle. Okay, but I still don't like it."

 

https://community.cartalk.com/t/subaru-outback-automatic-transmission/33327

 

 

 

 

Do you actually have a clue as to what you're talking about? No they weren't designed to hold on a hill. Some do some don't. Sometimes the same vehicle does or doesn't.

If the CVT did hold the car while on an incline, it would come with the cost of either more fuel consumption or more transmission wear (if the Legacy had a manual transmission, you could certainly use the clutch instead of the brakes to hold the car on a hill, it would just wear out your clutch faster), or both more fuel consumed and more wear, both of which would be another source of complaint.

 

Use the hill hold function, if you keep that button turned on it will activate whenever it is needed and the only price you pay is a light on your dash, or just keep your foot on the brakes.

 

Complaining about this is high on the list of first world problems right now, imho.

Well let me clarify.

 

If I were heading from Montgomery street up California street, sitting in the middle of that hill, there is no AT in this world that wouldn't roll back. I drove some manuals while living/ driving in SF and that brake stick in between the seats was my friend.

 

I only meant that in general SF has a lot of hills and no they are not all as steep as the streets often shown on tv.

 

No I shouldn't pick on the OB because apparently this is the new way of seeking out a bit of fuel efficiency. But it doesn't mean I have to like the new experience.

 

The hill-hold feature uses the brakes, if I'm not mistaken. I remember stalling out in my new-to-me '08 STI on the first dozen or so slight inclines, when I went to clutch out and give it some gas, but the brakes were still holding! lol I could NOT turn this feature off in my '08.

 

Maybe it's just me, but I've been in plenty of AT's that have trouble remaining stationary on steep inclines. There's a huge difference between rolling backward on a slight incline and doing so on one of the hills you see in SanFran!

Haha, I gotcha