JayRex - 5EAT Rebuild

Did you adjust the calculated torque tables in the ECU? If not, and running big injectors for e85, you're in for a bad time.

Yes I did, but I'm not certain it is correct. (Requested Torque?)

I'm a little foggy in this area of tuning. Also not currently on E85, its a little wonky in the winter here.

 

Feel free to school me or shoot me a good link to read.

 

It looks like Requested Torque only applies to Target Throttle Angle

But I have read the 5EAT some how uses that value to adjust clutch pressure? And some say 410 is the max that changes anything?

 

throttlehappy has a bunch to say about it in this thread:

 

http://www.romraider.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=7539&sid=95a8b76083c25fe25908e1f551f849c2&start=30

 

Here are my tables as they sit now. I just kinda took a stab at it and raised them.

Edited January 26, 2018 by jayrex

There is another table in the ECU that compares engine load to engine speed to generate a estimated engine torque value.

 

On the '05-'06, the fact it references base pulse width as load and thus a huge problem when changing injectors. You need to to at the very least change the pulse width scaling to match your new injectors so it's not telling the TCU that your you're making half the torque you were otherwise. Additionally you'll be off the scale to the right due to the power mods, so should scale out the range of the table as well. Essentially, on your car the ECU is telling the TCU the motor is making about 1/3 the torque it actually is. The TCU is just doing what it's told.

 

Unfortunately this table isnt supported on Racetune. You need to convert to EcuTEC or open source.

more information over on RomRider.com

Edited January 26, 2018 by utc_pyro

I've done quite a bit of reading on Subaru tuning, and this is news to me!

 

Thank you for taking the time, and I will look into migrating over to a different tuning platform. I like some of the opensource MAF tools anyway. I always just stuck with Racetune because I had the AP and figured it would show all editable tables. I never imagined things would be 'missing'.

Ok it looks like they figured out how the scaling works over on the Romriader forums. dschultz and NSFW descuss it here: http://www.romraider.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=8950&start=0

 

The upper row is base injector pulse width, and is calculated by multiplying the raw load and and the raw injector scaling. There are also a bunch of compensation tables that COULD be used but appear off in our roms. At least on dschultz outback the code actually went through them still so you could actually use them. Not sure if the comp tables are applied pre or post sending the torque value out the CAN bus though without IDA knoladge.

 

Also I seem to be seeing the shift retard tables, but I can't figure out which does what without knowing IDA. They look like the ones defined here:

http://www.romraider.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1158&start=60

 

I found where you were talking about it. Thanks again.

I dove head first into romraider, but I'm a little stuck trying to get that table to show up, maybe I'm making too many assumptions. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

 

After connecting, my ECUID is:

A2WC500C

 

First assumption is that A2WC500C uses the same addresses as A2WC521C. I looked into ScoobyRom to confirm myself, but that was a struggle outside of my comfort zone.

 

So based on your post to the RomRaider Forums:

Columns: C15DC

Rows: C1610

Data: C164C

In case someone is searching later the above also applies to A2WC521R and A2WC521C.

 

You also mentioned:

"15 rows by 13 columns, rpm and base pulsewidth as axes. Thanks utc_pyro for pointing that out."

 

I've had no luck trying to figure out the exact syntax to edit the 'ecu_defs.xml' file to bring up the Calculated Torque table when I load A2WC500C.hex or A2WC521C.hex files (I guess they are interchangeable?)

 

It looks like I just need to add the table to 32BITBASE definitions. Not sure if I need to add something extra to the specific A2WC500C 'romid' section that calls on the 32BITBASE definition.

 

Here is what I tried adding to the 32BITBASE:

 

<table name="Calc Engine Torque" category="UTC_Pyro Beta" address="C164C" type="3D" level="1" scaling="RequestedTorque(rawecuvalue)">

<description>Calculated Crank Engine Torque by Pulsewidth.</description>

<table name="PulseWidth" address="C15DC" type="Y Axis" elements="13" scaling="PulseWidth"/>

<table name="Engine Speed" address="C1610" type="X Axis" elements="15" scaling="RPM"/>

</table>

 

Am I even close? I feel like there are many errors in my attempt here, lol.

 

Also, once I get this working, I see you tried multiplying the entire table by 1.2, is that still working out for you?

Am I even close? I feel like there are many errors in my attempt here, lol.

 

You were close, the address are slightly diffrent on 500c. I think this should work:

 

<table name="Calc Engine Torque" category="UTC_Pyro Beta" address="C1640" type="3D" level="1" scaling="RequestedTorque(rawecuvalue)">
<description>Calculated Crank Engine Torque by Pulsewidth.</description>
<table name="PulseWidth" address="C15D0" type="Y Axis" elements="13" scaling="PulseWidth"/>
<table name="Engine Speed" address="C1610" type="X Axis" elements="15" scaling="RPM"/>
</table>

 

You need to go add that to the ecuflash file xml for your particular ECU. Another option is to flash a later rom, they fixed a lot of thing in the alter revisions. A2WC521C will flash straight on.

 

Also, once I get this working, I see you tried multiplying the entire table by 1.2, is that still working out for you?

 

No, that wasn't the best idea actually. It was just a quick hack to test it if it was working. Currently running a table a pro tuner set up for me, that I then blended with the stock table when off boost to fix some harshness issues.

 

I'm not very good designing tables beyond 2D ones actually. I can see what it's doing and spit out theory all day but hit a brick wall when it comes to making a 3d table.

 

Good luck, and you got pretty close with no help at all!

Edited January 30, 2018 by utc_pyro
clarity

I tried various tweaks to get 521C or 500C to work, but I just can't get the table to populate into RomRaider ECU Editor.

 

I'm going to start digging in here over the next week or so:

http://www.romraider.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=6303

Ohhhh, I see the issue. These tables are defined for ECUflash, not Romraider proper. The definition format for Romradier is kind of a pain in the ass, so most people just use it for logging now.

Ohhhh, I see the issue. These tables are defined for ECUflash, not Romraider proper. The definition format for Romradier is kind of a pain in the ass, so most people just use it for logging now.

 

Oh I see, I though you might have just misspoke with the 'ecu flash xml', figured you meant ecu_def.xml

 

Seemed like all the pieces were there to make the definitions work for Romraider. I'll take a stab at it with ECU Flash in the next couple days.

 

Thanks for all the help on this. I don't want to give up on my 5EAT just yet!

 

I'm hoping this fix plus the modified vb(installed), brass bushings(installed), and a fresh set of frictions should set it up to hold some decent power.

A2WC500C was not loading correctly. So I just moved onto A2WC521C as you suggested.

 

I found a greyed out 'Calculated Torque A' table, Edit, Edit Definitions.

 

http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=261504&stc=1&d=1517457442

 

There is some weird box stuck over some of the text fields, but you can still make out what is in there.

 

Used these values:

Columns: C15DC

Rows: C1610

Data: C164C

 

 

This is the resulting table:

http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=261503&stc=1&d=1517457442

 

Could not change some of the labels, maybe if I tinker with the 32BITBASE tab, more options for the table were in there.

 

Do these numbers look right and should I try playing with these values? The trans likes to let go around 3500+ so start increasing above that range?

 

I'm on 1000cc injectors and my injector scale is 2700 in RaceTuner, not sure if that translates to 270 here. I see 520 as the stock value in EcuFlash, Where I think Race uses 5200 stock scale value.

Hum, odd color gradient you have going on there.

 

Anyway, first thing to do is fix the scaling to compensate for injector differences.

 

2700/5200 = .52 => 0.5

 

So take the engine load scaling row at the top and half all the values. That will get things ballpark and make them at least behave like stock injectors would have.

 

Then when you start refining it you'll widen the scaling back out, but also scale up the calculated torque. Max value is in the low 400 before it freaks out. You're trying to make this table roughly match the engine crank output given engine loads and RPM's.

Trans exploded. Not sure exactly what broke yet, its too cold to take it out. I'm thinking center diff. Definitely not rear diff. Bought the exact serial number $450 + $150 shipping.

 

Ref trans serial number: TG5C7CWABA (05 Legacy GT Wagon) Not sure what other numbers would have worked. I'm assuming any 05 or 06 LGT 5EAT, not sure if wagon specific is important. 07-09 have different valve bodies, so I'd assume they would not work as a swap.

 

I will likely start another thread for the carnage pics and rebuild of the new trans. (will post a link if I do).

I might just switch the valve bodies and pop the trans in there, instead of changing the clutch packs. Haven't decided yet.

This is a very informative thread , can't wait to see what you do with the replacement box.

What the latest with this?

 

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TLDR: The new trans is in and working!

I did not open up the old trans yet, but I found bits of center diff gear teeth in the pan. I even had the special brass bushings in there to prevent this.

 

So the longer version with pics...

 

Removed the engine and trans in one shot! I saw this on an instagram post and decided to give it a go because aligning the trans to the engine or engine to trans in the car is a PITA either way. They popped right out with very little issue. Just make sure you have some good tilt possible and enough headroom. Separation and reconnecting works soo much better on the bench. Not to mention the dangers of trying to lift a transmission up into the car from the bottom. It can be sketchy solo or with help. I did this all solo.

 

 

Here is 4 pics of it on the way out:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Stealing the modified VB out of the busted trans:

 

 

VB out of the new (used) trans:

 

 

 

This is my ghetto DIY drain table. Shimmed the bench top at an angle and drilled a hole for a drain hose. Taped down some rope to guide the perpetual waves of trans fluid. This worked good, last time was a mess.

 

 

Clutch packs all taken out, and a pic of the new frictions:

 

 

 

 

 

This used trans was spotless inside. I didn't even need to change the frictions but I didn't know until getting it all apart. I changed everything out anyway because I had already bought everything. (~$200) I saved the old frictions and steels to use later if I burn these up. I seem to be good at that.

 

 

Here is everything buttoned up and rejoined together:

 

 

 

Back in the car and doing a little TRANS-fusion refill:

 

 

 

Everything is working great. Had an issue with one of the intercooler pipes popping off, making me thing the trans popped within 200 yards of my driveway. Then the car wouldn't start cuz the battery was dead. It was kind of confusing because I didn't find the intercooler pipe issue till 2 days later. I was sure I had killed the new trans. Was super bummed after all that work. Its all good now and every is working great! Even have her back on E85.

 

 

Bonus pics of valve cover resealing and turbo rebuild!

 

Awesome! Nice job! Where did you buy the new friction and steel plates? I have a donor transmission I want to rebuild as a spare and you have given me inspiration.

https://cobratransmission.com/

Some of the gaskets you may want to get from a subie parts dealer. Like the gasket for the pump. Both times mine came off pretty mangled and corroded. That is prob the only one you'll need. Definitely plan on a valve body shift kit if you're adding power. I have a spare stock VB to sell if anyone wants. Just pm me.

so with the new trans....Did you do anything about the center diff bushings? Or did you just leave it stock?

so with the new trans....Did you do anything about the center diff bushings? Or did you just leave it stock?

 

No they are still sitting in the old trans. I haven't even seen them yet.

If I decide to later, I can pop them in pretty easily without removing the trans.

I will post a pic if/when I get in there. I think they have about 20k miles on them now. They might be tore up from the failure. I'm thinking that was the area that probably exploded. I highly doubt they were the cause thou.

I think the brass bushings were meant to protect the spindle thing they replaced, right? Not necessarily the gear teeth?

Apparently there were reports of many people breaking the needle/roller bearings which then caused the planetary gears, output/intermediate shaft and pins in the centre diff to break

 

Yes its true the needle bearings are weaker because of their inherent design but for stock applications they serve a good purpose and much better then other bearing solutions because of better oil distribution and load distribution.

 

People have not broken the actual brass bushings from what I know but they have still broken the centre diff components even after the brass bushing install. What I don't understand is because the brass bushing clearance is so tight or practically 0, what will happen when due to temperature fluctuations it seizes in the planetary/pinion gear, or it seizes on the pin that goes inside it?

 

I have a set of the brass bushes that I have not installed yet and a spare planatery/pinion gear and the bushes will definitely not fit in the planetary/pinion freely by hand, Its just too tight. I recall reading that you must freeze the bushings and then heat the gears or something and then can get them to fit, or you can hammer them in, but stock ones slide right in and out by hand.

 

Anyway my subi transmission builder refuses to install them if I want him to build my 5EAT lol.

 

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Edited August 18, 2019 by Libacy GT

I really need to open that up to take a peek, and a pic, of the failure for you guys.

I was just anxious to get the car up and running after almost of year of down time so I didn't bother with the bushings. I didn't want to add more unknowns to the repair either.

 

Yeah, I'm up in the air about the necessity. Either way, I will not be launching my 5EAT. I didn't do it often, and I bet they help, but I certainly wouldn't call the brass bushings launch proof.

 

 

Theoretically the brass bushings should keep the gear mesh aligned correctly.

I definitely had that failure prior to the install. 3 teeth broken off the intermediate shaft. All the planetary gears were fine. (pictures earlier in this thread). I say failure, but the trans functioned like normal. I only saw the issue because I got eyes on it.

 

My bushings went in tight, but I didn't need to freeze them or anything. The bearing portion of the setup is the inside diameter. So everything spins freely, no reason to worry about them being tight. You really want them as tight as possible, while still being able to assemble. Just tap them in there. My tolerances were good, not too tight, not sloppy.

 

Also that isnt a high rpm area.

My opinion- the alignment under load is more important than the friction reduction of the needle bearings. I don't think they could bind or even get tight from 150-180 degree oil bath. Maybe bake the assembly in the oven at 300 deg and see if the tolerance changes.

Not to thread jack.... but I figured out what broke on my transmission and thought I would share. The center diff. I have the transgo jr shift kit installed since buidling the engine and making more power. after 15k of hard acceleration (it was just so much fun) 1st to 2nd shift with moderate acceleration and she finally had enough. My car makes 290 whp and 330ft lbs of tq (tuned by EFI logics).

 

Already swapped in a used transmission from the junk yard, but should I be trying to figure out how the hell I can get my hands on a set of the diff bushings?

 

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Thanks for posting those pictures. They look pretty knarly. ;D

 

If ClimberD at Hexmods is not making them anymore, I'm not sure where to get the custom bushings. I'm going to keep mine for now. If you can get the specs on the sizing, I bet you could get a local place to fab some up at a fair price. They are basically just brass cylinders, properly toleranced. When I get around to digging mine out, I could give you a rough idea about the size, but I don't have the proper tools to measure precisely. Not sure when that will be.