New Legacy GT Wagon vs. 2 y.o. Audi S4 Avant?

I am a big fan of the 4WD sport wagon idea and the new Legacy GT Wagon has the same kind of numbers ( Turbo,250hp, 4WD) etc. as the previous model Audi S4 wagon. A 2-3 y.o. used S4 is roughly the same price as a new Legacy GT/Limited wagon ( and someone else has taken the big first years depreciation on the S4 already). Has anyone had personal experience with driving the two back-to-back. In particular I was wondering how the auto versions compare as I will have to get an auto ( non stick-shift driving partner..)

I can't give you a direct comparison, but I was in the market for a b5 s4 before the legacy GT came out in NA. Those prices are not the real prices. The S4 is a gigantic money pit, while the legacy GT is a nice reliable car that is new and has a factory warranty. I have spent a few years lurking on audiworld :) i.e. Replace turbos on S4, $7000 labor, plus two turbos, and about one week. Replace turbo on GT, probably a few hours and a turbo. Most people that know how to use a wrench can do it themselves. Yes the torque curve is very nice (about 1850-3000 rpm range), but other than that, forget it. Or at least budget in ~30-50% of the S4's price for repairs.

[quote name='Deer Killer']Replace turbo on GT, probably a few hours and a turbo. Most people that know how to use a wrench can do it themselves.[/quote] And if it does become common place to upgrade turbos's (like the WRX) then you'll be able to pick up a stock one for less than $500

I was hoping to avoid the "Audis suck, Subarus rock" type of discussion and just get a hands-on opinion here. If you buy an Audi-used-certifed S4 ( which is the only one I would consider) you are covered by a limited warranty ( which would include the turbos, I assume) for 6 years/100k miles from the original date of (new car) purchase.

[quote name='loopless']I was hoping to avoid the "Audis suck, Subarus rock" type of discussion and just get a hands-on opinion here. If you buy an Audi-used-certifed S4 ( which is the only one I would consider) you are covered by a limited warranty ( which would include the turbos, I assume) for 6 years/100k miles from the original date of (new car) purchase.[/quote] Hey I like Audis, I like a lot of different makes and models, if you have an extended warranty then go for it but if not I agree with what Deer Killer said.

The S4 is a really nice car. The two drive differently. The S4 is a bit more ponderous than the Legacy, wagon to wagon. The Legacy feels more agile. Subjectively, the S4 feels faster but in fact, the Legacy is a bit faster. The S4 has greater ease to its speed, however. Both will get you to prison velocities at the drop of a right foot. The GT's speed is very subtle. I preferred the steering on the Legacy, as well as the overall handling and turn-in characteristics. The S4's gearbox feels niiiice and solid without feeling as mechanical as some boxes can feel, though I never got to 6th gear. The GT's doesn't feel much worse, but there is a feel difference. Obviously inside the cockpit, the S4 is yards ahead of the Legacy, which has been improved, but the S4 is just nice as hell. I would trust both AWD systems to hell and back. For my money, I chose the Legacy. Some of that was because I am leery of used turbo cars, even with warranties. Also, the snowy Midwest seems to place a higher premium on AWD cars. I just couldn't find an S4 for anything approaching the sub-$28K out the door price that I got my GT wagon (cloth) for. So my decision was an easy one. Had I been shopping in the Limited/automatic price range, above $30K, it would have been more difficult, particularly as a very nice Audi dealer is right down the street from my house. Hope that helps, Kevin

2002 Audi A4 V6 6MT with sport pack. It's very nice looking, lovely interior and handles reasonably well. But it is without a doubt the single most unreliable car I've ever owned. It's been in the shop more than twenty times. Towed three times. Replaced the coils (twice). Replaced the battery. Etc. Etc. It you want to spend time having it repaired all of the time, get the Audi. Otherwise get the Subie. I'm looking at a '05 GT Sedan with 5EAT. FYI, I have never owned a Subie before. Regards, Dan.

Audis suck, Subarus rock! There. Happy now? :) With the extra factory warranty, I'd get the S6 Avant. Assuming I can swing the cash. Otherwise, Legacy GT all the way. I've spoken with alot of Audi owners in regards to used Audis and they all unamously said that used Audis are dangerous. All of them are leasing their cars and will dump it back to the dealer once the warranty and lease are up.

I owned an 04 S4 Avant (6MT) last fall, and sold it this spring. Not the same as your 2yr old, as it had 4.2l V8, NA. What was great: acceleration, aesthetics, many amenities, suspension, brakes. What wasn't great: quirky drive by wire, HORRIBLE gas mileage (worse than an H2 Hummer, no excuse for that). After driving my GTwagon for the past month, I'd say it's 85% of the car the S4 was, for 55% of the price (at least here in Canada). The Legacy has great steering, much more nimble than the S4 (500 lbs lighter), and ultimately, more fun to drive. I hope that it will also end up being more reliable than Audi; trust me, it ain't cheap fixing a 6yr old.

As a friend who owns a 2002 S4 (had it since it was new) says, "love driving the car but hate the amount of warranty work". I believe he went through 2 stereos, 4 wheelspeed sensors and a few other things.. He is currently in litigation with Audi under the lemon law. Court date is in December. He hasn't had any turbo problems yet, but I believe he's only got about 46,000 miles on it. As a side note, both he and I went to look at the Legacy together. When we got done test driving it his quote was "This is the Japanese equivalent of my S4". He's looking to buy a Legacy if Audi takes the S4 back in December.

[quote name='eamiller']I believe he went through 2 stereos, 4 wheelspeed sensors and a few other things.. He is currently in litigation with Audi under the lemon law. Court date is in December. [/quote] BTDT..when I said I sold my S4 this spring...guess who the buyer was? You guessed it...Audi Canada. They were a bit slow in reaching a decision, but were extremely fair with me...100% of my purchase price refunded. :D Thus ended my 27yr VW/Audi streak, and now my first Sube.

I spent countless hours on the Audi boards researching and discussing the A4 and A4 variants, (e.g., S4, Avants and Cabrios) and the one thing that I picked up rather quickly was the fun factor of the S4 - most talked about plastered grins on their faces from the driving experience. But, in the same post, each would echo the difficulties they had with maintaining the vehicle - turbos, intercoolers, coilpacks, wheel bearings, fuel pumps, electronics... and how much time their cars were spending at the dealership. Also, when I compared the insurance costs side-by-side between the Audis and the Subarus, there was a huge cost avoidance factor where the Subaru was concerned - like to the tune of almost a $1000 less per year. Talking to my colleagues at work who have Audis, they register these same comments and they are talking to me about getting rid of their Audis and getting the new LGT. Bottom line for me was the logic factor of the Subaru over the Audi - the really sweet Audi interior notwitstanding - I get it! SBT

[quote name='Gumby'][quote name='loopless']I was hoping to avoid the "Audis suck, Subarus rock" type of discussion and just get a hands-on opinion here. If you buy an Audi-used-certifed S4 ( which is the only one I would consider) you are covered by a limited warranty ( which would include the turbos, I assume) for 6 years/100k miles from the original date of (new car) purchase.[/quote] Hey I like Audis, I like a lot of different makes and models, if you have an extended warranty then go for it but if not I agree with what Deer Killer said.[/quote] I really like Audi's too, but if I was going pre-owned, I wouldn't touch an Audi with a 30 foot pole if it didn't have a warrenty. I'm also a member of Audiworld and have been on AudiWorld for a few years now, and let me tell you, from what I researched Audi's are scary expensive to own if you don't have a warrenty. I was about to go for an Audi TT before coming here, but I just don't have the funds for one :( . There is no Audi or any car hating on these boards, we're just giving you the truth. - Mike

[quote name='Subietonic'] Also, when I compared the insurance costs side-by-side between the Audis and the Subarus, there was a huge cost avoidance factor where the Subaru was concerned - like to the tune of almost a $1000 less per year. [/quote] It was either Edmunds or MSN that ran an article not too long ago listing the 10 most expensive cars to insure and they had the Audi S4 near the top of that list. On the other side of the coin, I've got insurance quotes on many cars ranging from $27K to $43K, and the Legacy GT Limited is always the cheapest insurance quote I get. Most and least Expensive quotes I received: Least Expensive: Maximum insurance coverage on the Legacy GT Limited - $1380/ 6 months Minimum insurance coverage on the Legacy GT Limited - $1210 / 6 months Most Expensive: Minimum insurance coverage on an Audi TT - $2080 / 6 months Minimum insurance coverage on an WRX STi - $2060 / 6 months - Mike

Just imagine Audi's used to be worse. I remember my father's Audi a long time ago...the odometer broke 4 times in like 3 years...the last time was on the way to the dealer to be turned in....shhhh.... but that was like 15+ years ago...the best kicker was getting things fixed...well sir, the only thing wrong was this little sensor, its only $35....unfortunetly...its going to take us 4 hours to get to that piece....killed you on the labor

I had an 85 Audi 4000 and a second hand 82 GT once. It was such a "great " experience I found Subaru and have had 4 since! Nothing I have heard or seen with friends/colleagues with more recent Audis suggest to me they are any better than they were then! Thank you Audi for making me find Subaru! Even if you have an ext warranty, and I did for the 4000, I was never partial to their coffeee or magazines in the dealers waiting room.

I just moved from a 2000 s4 avant to a 2005 gt ltd wagon. Audis suck, Subies rock. I loved the audi, it was comfy, beautiful inside, handled and performed well, worked very well in the snow, and was just a little off beat. But the damn thing broke down a LOT. For the amount I paid, I was very, very displeased with that. I had a 2000 leg GT that I traded for the audi back in 2000. The subie was great, but slow. On balance, I wish I would have just kept the subie. I hated seeing the audi on the truck (or in the shop) so much it hurt me. Truthfully, my new GT is about 90% the car the S4 was. The only real shortcoming is the interior, and of course the snob appeal. There is no such thing as a good deal on a used s4.

The RS4 Avant was the car I always wanted to have, but the S4 was all we got here in the States, and the reliablity to me just wasn't worth it.

I don't own a GT Wagon and I don't own an S4 Avant...but I do own an A4 sedan and an 05 Outback. The A4 I too bought w/ a certified warranty - I had a ton of work done a week before the warranty expired (it was only a 3 yr at the time). A month ago the ABS control module went out (evidently very common on all Audis) - $1200 part + labor. Last week, I go out to turn it on and drive to work...won't even start. Needless to say, its parked in the driveway waiting to go into the shop next week. I love the car - I love Audis (convinced my mother to buy a A4 Avant 8 months ago), but am starting to think its not quite worth the hassle cause of the shop issues. The next comment is coming from a brand new subaru owner...but, with all the facts lined up, the Subaru still doesn't have that unquantifiable "sex appeal" that an S4 Avant does. That's just me, but that damn thing usually gets me every time - I'm such a sucker...at least for now.

My 97 A4 2.8 Quattro was traded in for my 05 Leg GT Wagon; two reasons really, more perfomance and room on top of it and the sense of impending doom with regards to shop time that was going to be necessary real soon. I bought my A4 with no warranty right after 9/11 with 14,800 miles on it, drove the piss out of it with no maintenance worries, then dumped it with 56k on the ticker. Really loved that car but I felt that the extra $100/month payment on the Leg spread out over time would be easier to do than the $1500+ right now bill I felt looming with the A4. The timing just felt right going to the Sube, and I know they're bombproof since I've owned a few already.

My dad has a 2002 s4 avant. It is a very nice car, i have heard tons of bad stuff about audi/vw reliability, but i guess his is the exception to the rule. He has 70,000 trouble free miles on it. I have driven a legacy gt and his s4 back to back, they feel very similar performance wise. My cousin has an s4 with the K04(rs4) turbo setup :lol: ! But that is $$$ Another option would be a vw r32 vs legacy gt comparison. I have heard of r32's going for under 27000. Have fun.

The Audi will cost a fortune. The same exact part can cost triple at the Audi dealer, compared to the VW parts counter. Plan on buying a Vag-Com interface and doing your own diagnostics, otherwise every time the CEL comes on it's $100 min. at the dealer.

This is starting to sound like a broken record: I just turned in my leased 01 S4 for an Outback XT. I WOULD NOT own this car out of warranty. Even in warranty, the inconvenience of servicing the car is a pain. The interior is gorgeous, the engine is great (chipped its even better), and the car is just SOLID. However, my car was in the shop for 3 weeks with transmission issues (manual), and a half dozen other times for warranty work. I got the outback because I no longer need the power of the S4 (I have another car for the track) and I have 2 kids. Plus I wanted something reliable WITHOUT snob appeal for a daily driver. To mirror what everyone else is saying. The Subaru is 85% of the car the S4 is at a much, much lower price. One other thing, if you live in NJ there are two types of S4 owners: Those that have had their car stolen and those that will have their car stolen. :eek:

I don't have long term experience with Subaru, but I do with VW/Audi products, and I'd never buy another. The minor annoyances were bad enough, but the smoke from behind the dash was the last straw. Electrics are a nightmare! I'm from South Jersey, and I haven't noticed that Audis are prone to theft. Maybe the thieves were counting on something that would go a little farther!

[quote name='bluesuby']Maybe the thieves were counting on something that would go a little farther![/QUOTE] Or at least to the closest chop shop. Sad, but probably true SBT