New year, new build...v.3.0...R?

forget pinning the block. have it sleeved and decked.

forget pinning the block. have it sleeved and decked.

 

These are my thoughts on this.

 

I just don't think it's necessary.

 

I've found the stock EJ25 case to be really reliable at around 500 whp. It wasn't until I started pushing it towards 600 whp that a liner cracked (full disclosure: that was after I leaned it out trying a new meth injection/gas ratio looking for more power. It might still be alive today.)

 

So, let's say 20% drivetrain loss comes to 625 crank horsepower (625 * 0.8 = 500.) That's 156 horsepower per cylinder from the EJ. This is the number I feel comfortable with from an EJ.

 

600 whp would be 750 crank. For the EJ that's 188 hp/cyl.

 

The EZ at 750 crank horsepower would be 125 hp/cyl. At 900 it would be 150. Spreading that power out takes a lot of strain off of individual components.

 

I'm thinking that supporting the cylinders with some pins is going to be fine for what I'm doing without the cost and and possible issues of sleeves. I like to keep things simple and effective. The pins combined with how short the cylinders are should be plenty to keep them from flexing under power. We'll see though.

I probably missed it. So you gonna get upgraded pistons, crank, etc..?

Not involved with engine building for cars but I have built some engines and I have a machining background.

 

While I'm sure the pining is something that is generally done, it does seem a bit weird to me. Thankfully you are using aluminum pins in an aluminum block. My main concern is the lack of them doing much of anything due to expanding less or at a different rate then the cylinder/block. Due to that I would expect these to need to have a inference/press fit. With the pins needing to be chilled to be installed.

 

I'm more just curious how this is actually supposed to work. It looks to be an easy good way to add some strength and no real harm if it doesn't do what it's supposed to. And the slight differences in the alloy between to block and the pins isn't likely enough to cause an issue but it's just something I was wondering if it had been thought about.

 

Of course if they are being welded in, there isn't anything to worry about.

Edited February 7, 2019 by nevets27

To be honest I have been toying with this idea. Just not the boost part.

I have been thinking of staying NA, and have some head work done so it can breath and rev that bich to moon.

Right now I am in the planning phase so I have no $ in engine parts so depending on how this goes, I might follow suit. I'll be watching this build closely.

Def keep us posted.

I probably missed it. So you gonna get upgraded pistons, crank, etc..?

 

Stock crank. Pistons are from Outfront Motorsports. 9.7:1 compression down from stock 10.7:1. Rods are also from Outfront. H-beam, fit for EJ bearings. One of the EZ's weaknesses is the small rod bearing surface. Outfront's rods use the wider EJ bearing.

 

Not involved with engine building for cars but I have built some engines and I have a machining background.

 

While I'm sure the pining is something that is generally done, it does seem a bit weird to me. Thankfully you are using aluminum pins in an aluminum block. My main concern is the lack of them doing much of anything due to expanding less or at a different rate then the cylinder/block. Due to that I would expect these to need to have a inference/press fit. With the pins needing to be chilled to be installed.

 

I'm more just curious how this is actually supposed to work. It looks to be an easy good way to add some strength and no real harm if it doesn't do what it's supposed to. And the slight differences in the alloy between to block and the pins isn't likely enough to cause an issue but it's just something I was wondering if it had been thought about.

 

Of course if they are being welded in, there isn't anything to worry about.

 

They are press fit. It's similar to what companies do when closing the deck entirely except this requires far less machine work. The closed deck blocks have a step machined out around the cylinder and the block and then press in an insert that completely encircles the cylinder. Pinning you machine out a circular step and press in an aluminum dowel. Once it's pressed in, it can't go anywhere, just like the closed deck inserts. It's simple and effective. Not as strong as a completely closed deck, but not as expensive or invasive either.

 

I'm not sure how much of an issue thermal expansion from different alloys will cause. The information I can find about the closed deck inserts says they're machined from billet 6061. The block is definitely not 6061. So, who knows. Probably not too big of an issue with a light press fit.

 

Here's a video of how much they machine to press in an insert: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpBi2DHvrgI

Edited February 8, 2019 by BrandonspecB

Here's some more info about the EZ block. I measured the thickness of the cylinder walls as well as the depth of the cylinders of an EJ and EZ.

 

EJ wall thickness: 0.32

EZ wall thickness: 0.30

 

The depth of the EZ cylinders is pretty consistent except at 90 degrees on the rear cylinders. The coolant flows differently with the EZ. The only coolant holes in the head gasket are at 90 degrees on the rear cylinders. Coolant flows front to back through the block, then flows into the cylinder head at the rear cylinder, and then flows back to front in the cylinder head and back to the radiator. With that said, at 90 degrees on the rear cylinders there are ramps cast in that help the coolant change directions into the cylinder head. Other than that one spot, the EZ cylinders are around 2.35" deep. Short cylinders are stiffer.

 

The EJ has taller cylinders except in a few spots where the casting bridges between the cylinder and block. The EJ varies between 2-3".

 

Here's a link from Jeff Sponaugle. He is a former Cobb calibrator and I have read everything I can find about his car since it's one of the few EZs around making decent power. He made over 500 whp and wtq with the stock block. In post 21 of the link he says he made 580 wtq. Stock, open deck block. https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1645176

 

I really think this block will handle quite a bit of power by semi-closing the deck with some pins that support the top 3/4" of the cylinder where pressure is the highest.

Totally following along. I love seeing different stuff. Good luck and carry on!

 

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

Finally got off my butt and finished stripping the engine. Hopefully I can get the shortblock disassembled tomorrow.

 

This really is a sweet engine. Lots of cool, complex stuff. I was pretty excited to find I can loosen the head bolts with out removing the cams, but that only lasted until I couldn't get the bolts out and had to remove the cams anyways.

 

The intake lifters are pretty complex. It's where the magic happens for the variable lift. The exhaust lifters are the same type as the EJ. The intake lifters use a little shim to set the valve lash.

 

The oil pan is a structural part of the engine and houses the water pump as well as the oil filter housing. Lots and lots of hardware to strip this engine.

Got the engine torn down, cleaned, and ready for the mill.

 

There sure isn't much to the crankshaft. Perrin made 600 whp with the stock crank, so I know it will hold that much.

 

One thing I noticed with this engine is that there are no reliefs cut in the cylinders to make room for the case bolts. Those reliefs in the EJ measure 0.26 and are a tremendous weak point. Pretty much every cracked cylinder I've seen happens there.

 

Speaking of case bolts, these bastards were tight. 1/2" impact wouldn't touch them. 3/4" gun had to come out.

Very interested in this build. Keep it up.

Things are slowly moving forward. Started getting the pins made up and installed. Lots of work. I have to hand finish each one to get the fit I want. I'm installing them a little proud so I can make 100% certain they're completely seated. The machine shop will get everything flush when they resurface the block.

 

I decided to go with Pauter X-beam rods instead of the Outfront H-beams. I initially wanted the Outfront rods because they say they are fit for the wider EJ bearing. Well, after inspecting and measuring the crank and bearings, the wider bearing will fit, but it won't do any good. The rods journals on the crank are chamfered on the edges. This means that any wider bearing will be off the flat surface of the journal. So, no point in using them. Ordered the Pauter X-beams. They're beefy.

Been working on some cool stuff at work. Rebuilding a 2-stroke 8v71 Detroit Diesel out of a loader that the operator overheated. He didn't check the fluids before he ran it for the day and overheated it so bad it seized.

 

Finished pinning half the case. Other half should be done Friday. Pauter rods are ordered, but they are 4 weeks out. They have to be made. No one has them in stock.

 

Talked to Element Tuning about a Hydra EMS. Going to order tomorrow. Should be able to get pistons ordered in the next few days.

Edited February 15, 2019 by BrandonspecB

Case halves are done and ready to be bored, honed, and decked. Pistons are here. Ordering EMS tomorrow or the day after. Started pricing out parts to build headers and exhaust for the turbo.

Great detail. Thanks for all your time posting here and best of luck with the build.

I'm sort of in a holding pattern waiting for rods to show up. They won't be here until the end of March.

 

Injectors and FPR showed up. Sort of weird buying six injectors.

 

Modified the fuel rails with -6 fittings. Just need to weld them on.

 

Here's a cool vid of Jeff Sponaugle racing his EZ30 WRX. The sound is amazing.

Cannot wait for results, thanks for sharing.

This is so refreshing from the typical ej builds I see everywhere.

Haven't made a whole lot of progress. Still waiting on rods and valve springs. My advice to anyone having parts made for a build is to go through the manufacturer. I tried saving money by purchasing through vendors and I am having a very hard time getting updates.

 

Had a nice EZ30 torque plate show up. I guess I can get the block machined now. Painted the intake manifold and valve covers with a wrinkle paint. Turned out pretty good. Also welded some AN fittings to the valve covers for the breather hoses to the catch can.

Build is finally going to be moving forward.

 

Block is at Metric Motors getting machined. Valve springs and Hydra EMS have shipped and will arrive next week. Rods are shipping out on Monday. Main and rod bearings are ordered. I'm excited!

More parts means more progress! And pics!

 

The rods are works of art. My buddy told me I should have bought a spare just to hang on the wall.

 

Started getting the heads ported. I'm just doing a very light bowl blend. The valve seats stick out into the port quite a bit, so I'm just grinding them down and blending it all together.

 

The EZ head casting is much better than the EJ. Far less casting flash in the ports. The intake ports are massive.

 

Dual intake valve springs from the factory and extremely wimpy exhaust valve springs. I laughed when I pulled them out.

 

Company 23 EJ valve spring compressor works just fine on intake and exhaust valves.

Raising the bar on MCM super gramps.

Raising the bar on MCM super gramps.

 

I definitely checked that build out when planning mine. I think I'm going to copy their exhaust routing except use a real 3-1 collector for each header.

 

Anyways, got one head done. I'm just going to use the stock valves for this build. Everything is in such good shape and there aren't any oversized valve options available. Some stock sized aftermarket stainless valves really won't give me much performance benefit, but they will give me a lot of additional cost.

 

Blasted the valves with glass bead and lapped them in with some lapping compound. I'll have Metric vacuum test them to make sure they seal properly before they resurface the heads.

Given this will be boosted 3>1 opposed to log pipe will not net much either. Just as larger valves or porting would not add much performance benefit either.

Stellar build. Looking forward to your progress.

Given this will be boosted 3>1 opposed to log pipe will not net much either. Just as larger valves or porting would not add much performance benefit either.

Stellar build. Looking forward to your progress.

 

I appreciate your interest in my build and compliments, but I have to disagree. Boosted engines benefit quite a bit from valve and port work. Anything that makes power on an NA engine will make power on a boosted engine and let you make that power at lower pressure.

 

https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=42414744&postcount=3

 

As far as log vs tubular, what I've seen is that logs usually spool faster due to less internal volume and tubular make top end power due to better flow.