Gullible customer with a possibly still salvageable car (car won't start)

Good afternoon all. Bear with me through this long winded post which may have gaps due to length of time between diagnosis and discovery.

 

A little over a year ago my 2010 LGT started having sporadic engine issues. It's hotten a lot of use and has around 170k miles. I bought the car used at 93k miles which will play a role in all this. It had been my daily driver until that fateful day. I way on my way home (40ish mile commute) and the first stop sign I came to the car ended ip stalling out. It had done this kind of thing a few times before and I don't think it threw any codes so I didn't reqlly thing anything of it. However, while driving on the highway it started making some unpleasant sounds. By the time I got to my exit off the highway I think I was 45mph top speed. I approached a red light and as soin as I stopped the car died. I had a jumper pack with me and tried that until it wouldn't provide power anymore. It would turn over, just not fire. I got it towed by a local shop who also specialize in subarus. When we arrived one of the mechanics came out with a jumper pack and hooked it up while I described what happened. After turning it over he made an in the spot determination that the timing belt went but wouldn't be able to confirm it until they opened it up. About a week later they said they were able to look in the timing belt area through a hole in the housing and could see that the timing belt had broken while I was driving which meant probable piston impact and would need a while new engine ($6k job for them to do it). I did some research and realized that a new timing belt is something that shoulf happen around the time I purchased the vehicle but never bother to ask if it had been done and I sure hadn't fone it so for all I know this belt had gone 170k miles and finally decided to go. I did not have the money to spend on a new engine with replacement so I declined. I was charged 1.5 hours labor and the tow cost to a storage unit I rented specifically to store the vehicle as I was still making payments on it.

 

Fast forward a year.

 

I puchased a house with a garage and spent some time cleaning it up and getting it good to go as a shop. Yesterday I moved the Subaru in for the first time and prepared to take the engine out. I got the battery out and since the driver's side of the timing belt housing was unobstructed decided to take a peek just for the heck of it. Imagine my surprise when I laid eyes on an intact timing belt with timing marks lined up (at least on that side). So now here I am furious at the shop that swindled me and at the same time trying to figure out what else might have caused the issue in the first place so that I may be able to diagnose and fix (and maybe recover) a decent vehicle. The car has sat over a year without running including 2 New England winters (though it was in dry storage). I can pull any codes still in memory tomorrow and post those. Based on all this A. What should I do first before getting too involved? I'm thinking fluid changes will be necessary as well as maybe some filters? I really don't know. Hoping the wealth of combined knowledge here will aid in this quest. I'm also attaching a picture of the timing belt as I currently see it.

All new fluids would be a good start. Also definitely change the timing belt, I'm not sure if you saw the circled area in red before you posted.

I would change that timing belt. I check for air leaks in the intake, my GT wouldn't drive with a hole in the charge pipe (the tube between the turbo and intercooler)

Good eye! I didn't notice but was going to do a new timing belt and accessories anyway since I don't know when the last belt change was and it's been 80k since I owned it. Thanks for the reccomendation for possible air leaks. I'll check that as well!

Compression test is easy enough as well. That should tell you if you have bent valves

So, I did compression testing on 3 of the 4 cylinders. I didn't bother with cylinder 4 because it was a pain to try and get to and after the first 3 results didn't think it would matter. I've included pictures of the valves as they currently sit. Cylinder 1 currently looks open and compression on that one was ~120. Cylinder 2 looks closed, has a little bit of fluid, and half an acorn (it fell in after I took the TGV off) and compression was ~60. Cylinder 3 looks closed has a good amount of fluid in it and compression was 0. Cylinder 4 looks closed and has a little fluid in it too. None of the valves seem bent and after all this I'm drawing a blank still. I'm not quite sure what the fluid is. It almost seems like gas, but off color, like maybe mixed with coolant? The smell is not definitive but it's also been sitting for over a year. I still want to break it down A. to learn about how the motor is put together and B. maybe salvage it.

 

On a separate note, I've considered maybe getting a second engine to put in instead and came across a few reasonably priced but have me utterly confused and here's why. I've included a picture of my motor and I circled what I believe is the power steering pump. The second motor is one I saw for sale listed as an EJ255. It has a front mount turbo just like mine and looks the same in every way except it's either missing the power steering pump or the pump is on the other side where my A/C pump is. I can't seem to find my exact engine anywhere and it's blowing my mind. I either find engines with the same A/C and steering pump locations as mine but the turbo is rear passenger mounted like a WRX, or it's front mounted turbo with same config as the picture I included. I feel like I'm going crazy! Is mine some super rare engine?

JDM engines use electric power steering which would account for the missing pump. If everything checks out I would do the timing on the "new" engine and the waterpump and call it a day. If you are so inclined you could also try to sell your engine to another member for whatever you decide it is worth.

 

Fwiw given the age and mileage the shop may have assumed the broken tooth on the timing belt meant this engine was going to be a dud. I wouldn't blame them for that assumption given the nature of some owners of these cars and their (ej25s) common issues with timing belts and headgaskets.

So the highlighted timing belt tooth in the picture is in fact intact, it was just a shadow from a extra piece of rubber. That shop was shady AF. I don't think they even popped the hood when they made their determination.

Do a leak down test of each cylinder. Then you'll know if and where the compression is going. If you are losing it through the exhaust or intake valves you'll have to pop the heads off and see what's going on. if you losing it to the crankcase you are likely looking for a motor.

 

It could be a simple as a carboned valve seat, a dropped guide or a burnt valve. Still an involved repair, but not one that can't be done with some patience and a good machine shop.

Can I do that with the engine in its current state (on a stand with all topside pieces off)?

yes. it'll actually be easier. As long as the heads are still on the block.

 

Youll have turn each cylinder to TDC by hand, put the leakdown tester in and see what the loss is.

 

If you have never seen what i'm talking about, here you go.

 

So the highlighted timing belt tooth in the picture is in fact intact, it was just a shadow from a extra piece of rubber. That shop was shady AF. I don't think they even popped the hood when they made their determination.

 

Curious to know the name of the shop if you're willing to share, so I know not to go there

Pat's Towning in Seabrook, NH

Welp! I think I found the issue! No indication of valve/pistol impact anywhere though I'm not sure if this valve is a result of that or just pressure and time. I will be taking it out to try and locate the broken piece(s) and start weighing my options as far as replacing internals while I have it all apart or going with a JDM engine. Can anyone recommend any good threads for replacing internals? Thanks!

I'd say watch YouTube on how to rebuild the head.

While you're in there maybe you can fit some of the sodium filled exhaust valves (probably can order on partsouq).

Very common thing to happen to this engine in particular

 

Welp! I think I found the issue! No indication of valve/pistol impact anywhere though I'm not sure if this valve is a result of that or just pressure and time. I will be taking it out to try and locate the broken piece(s) and start weighing my options as far as replacing internals while I have it all apart or going with a JDM engine. Can anyone recommend any good threads for replacing internals? Thanks!

 

This is common problem, the exhaust valve clearance went to zero, the valve wasn't fully seating and exhaust gases burnt the valve. You won't find 'the piece'.

 

I would just rebuild the head, adjust valve clearances and put it back together.

 

Here is my burnt valve...

 

Edited March 2, 2021 by dgoodhue

You might also retract any negative connotations about the service center, they may have simply performed a compression test and came out with the same result as a broken or skipped timing belt. In any case they were correct the heads need rebuilding and the engine needs resealing, for the cost a replacement is usually a better alternative.

You might also retract any negative connotations about the service center, they may have simply performed a compression test and came out with the same result as a broken or skipped timing belt. In any case they were correct the heads need rebuilding and the engine needs resealing, for the cost a replacement is usually a better alternative.

 

I would consider it if they had phrased it n that manner but what I was told was "The technician could see inside the timing belt cover through a hole and saw your belt was broken." They also said they were going to borescope it to check the valves which they never did. When I went to get stuff out of the car after the "diagnosis" it was still in the same spot covered in snow. When I retook possesion of it I looked under the hood and there was no sign of any bolts having been undone to get to the plugs (unless it can be done from underneath). When I changed the plugs myself I had to take the tmic off. Regardless it seemed very much like lip service and them wanting to take the easiest and most profitablenpath to a solution and as a customer I felt like they were trying to take advantage of me.

Nothing but a coil pack and spark plug needs to be removed for a leakdown or compression check. Or they may have even eliminated fuel as a possibility and spoken from experience with these motors. There is very little that tends to go wrong with them. So timing belt jumping/compression issues due to valves or headgaskets is a pretty sure bet when they randomly shut off and wont restart.

 

Why would you need to take off the top mount to do plugs??? Maybe the charge pipe on the passenger side, but that is just a clamp and maybe a bolt...

 

Lip-service or not, they were correct. Just my observation.

Edited March 3, 2021 by FLlegacy

Nothing but a coil pack and spark plug needs to be removed for a leakdown or compression check. Or they may have even eliminated fuel as a possibility and spoken from experience with these motors. There is very little that tends to go wrong with them. So timing belt jumping/compression issues due to valves or headgaskets is a pretty sure bet when they randomly shut off and wont restart.

 

Why would you need to take off the top mount to do plugs??? Maybe the charge pipe on the passenger side, but that is just a clamp and maybe a bolt...

 

Lip-service or not, they were correct. Just my observation.

 

If you think they were correct to charge $4k for a replacement engine and $2k for labor then I guess I'm in the wrong. Especially since I researched replacment engines and found a few for ~$2k a year ago. Additionally, you're focusing on how you suspect they may have gone about on doing a compression test while completely ignoring the fact that they told me "the timing belt is broke". They said this! They didn't say "could be a timing belt issue and we did a compression check to get some data and make an informed decision as to the best course of action". No, they said, verbatim, "The timing belt broke".

 

So when I took the cover off and the timing belt was completely intact they lost ALL credibility. If you want to continue playing devil's advocate to a sleazy towing/repair shop 1500 miles away from your location when you were not in any way, shape, or form involved in the discussions, diagnosis, and outcome of my situation then have at it. All I am doing is passing on MY experience in this particular situation so that others can be better informed.

I now own this Legacy GT. Matt and his father helped deliver it to my house last evening.

What are you going to do with it?

I now own this Legacy GT. Matt and his father helped deliver it to my house last evening.

 

You better watch out or all the sudden one day your going to be living in a 5th gen GT salvage yard.

 

I imagine you have to have the record for having the most 5th gen GT's so far...? I know you sold #2 already, but still nice work on keeping the Gen alive.

 

I'll be pulling the passenger side head out of mine tomorrow... not looking forward to all the fun.

What are you going to do with it?

 

I am going to fix the valve and clean it up. It needs a few other things, like carpet (can of paint was spilled in the interior), drivers mirror housing, and one of the tires has a bubble in it. A little bit of work, polished and I will think I have the car looking/running like a respectable 5th Gen GT again. I will eventually start a new thread for this car.