Best supporting mods for stage 2?

I'm getting a blackstone test kit in the mail and assuming everything comes back ok I'm dreaming about throwing more money in my engine bay. Tris told me about his torque gains with a new intercooler and at first I was all naw I'm good, but now that work is slow Ive got too much time to waste thinking about how to drain my wallet.

 

So presently I'm stage 2 with Jmp vf46 at 18 psi and a BP'd IC, new clutch and lighter flywheel. The bp'd IC seems to be holding up fine as far as I can tell. Inspected it this evening and it looks the way it did when I installed it. Ive also got fresh struts and heavier swaybars.

 

In order of gains per dollar what are the best supporting mods? I've done my googleing and have not seen a value breakdown on supporting mods at stage 2. I know upgraded fueling is requires for larger turbos, I've read that Cbe doesnt do much for stage 2, ecbs is also not dramtically helpful. I dont know much about headers except some might introduce lag, and a good bpv might reduce lag. Bigger injectors and new fuel pump might allow me to push my Jmp to the bleeding edge which could be interesting. As far as a Tmic im not certain how much I would benefit over my BP'd stocker. I dont care so much about hp on the top end since I never push my engine past 5500 (more like 5000), and I dont have plans to drive over 90 except perhaps for datalogging. I do like throttle response, I do like torque. My favorite spots in the rev range right now are 2500-4000.

 

I think the next steps are some order of the following.

 

Panel filter

CBE

new TMIC

Bigger or modded Injectors

New Fuel pump

Headers

Bpv

Ebcs

 

What order would you put those in in terms of value? I dont have the funds to do them all, but if a did one or more which would you do? This is mostly just a day dream post. I'm inspired by all the dyno charts I see with the extra mods beyond stage 2. I figure people spend the extra for reasons I don't know about.

What kind of hp are you looking for? That will determine what mods will be worth it vs the mods that are just bling.

What tuner are you working with?

A lot of those mods beyond uppipe, downpipe and tune are for reliability at stage 2 or for pushing a little bit past the stage 2 numbers. It's more about removing weak points/choke points than it is about real measurable horsepower/torque gains. But a lot of them aren't really taken advantage of until you get into fully upgrading your turbo. Now that said, I would say you do have an upgraded turbo, but I would say not to the same degree as say a VF52. I don't know the flow number differences, but I would say that rebuilt VF46 puts you in between stage 2 and stage 3. A lot of those extra mods will allow you to really maximize the potential of your VF46, but you are going to be seeing diminishing bang for your buck returns on the next steps you take unless you get a bigger turbo.

 

For example, the stock catback is fine for stage 2, but a lot of people are looking for the great sound, so they end up doing catback at stage 2, but the stocker isn't really restrictive until stage 3. Same goes for an intake, but even more so as the stock intake is good to about 350 awhp.

 

Same is true for an intercooler, bpv, and ebcs. If you are not blowing apart your bp stocker, you can improve the heat soak characteristics and such with an aftermarket intercooler, but you won't see huge horsepower gains. If Tris is saying that he's seeing good torque increases, I would believe him, but keep in mind that it's going to be at least $500 and as much as $1000 for that gain.

 

You also don't really need bigger injectors for a lot of gain, though you are probably stretching the limit of what the stockers can deliver. Mostly you are probably near 90-95% injector duty cycle at wot. Some say that it's not great to run injectors near the top of their capacity as they become a little inaccurate or run a little lean occassionally. So, need? No. Can use? Yes. Can get significant gains for the upgrade? Probably not.

 

Upgraded fuel pump is always a good mod regardless of anything else. But again, it's more about making sure the system doesn't ever fall behind than it is about big increases.

 

Headers may not be a good idea as aftermarket headers have a tendency to crack and fail. You'll see some minor improvements from equal length headers, but aftermarket unequal length will not be much of an improvement. Have to decide how much you care about the Subie boxer rumble, which is an artifact of the stock UEL headers.

 

Generally, I would say that if one is staying at stage 2, than a lot of the extra mods are really pretty extraneous. Yes, they allow you to maximize your potential, but only for a pretty huge expense as compared to minimal measurable gains.

 

Now, if one is going stage 2, but plans to go stage 3 some day, then some of those extraneous mods make a little more sense, even at stage 2. Even if you don't get full bang for your buck, they'll still be taken advantage of eventually, so the cost is less of a factor, since it was always going to need to be spent eventually anyway.

 

This is the situation that I'm in. I'm still on the stock VF40, so I'm stage 2. But I do have an upgraded up, down, catback, intercooler, bpv, and ebcs. Those last 4 aren't necessary at stage 2, but I will take advantage of them a tiny bit at stage 2 and will really make them sing at stage 3. With that setup, my biggest choke point is now my turbo, so I will be going stage 3 eventually with a Blouch Dominator 1.5xtr. I do have UEL headers, tgv deletes, and fuel pump hanging out in the garage to go with it. Still need injectors and some other stuff (intake maybe) for when I go stage 3.

 

Again, I think you are right between stage 2 and 3, so some of those might be helpful and some might just be a waste of money.

 

Here's where I would go:

Intercooler (? it's expensive though)

BPV (I like the Forge - 100% recirc)

ebcs

fuel pump

injectors

 

Skip the headers and catback is still more about sound than restriction, I think. Also, I have a panel filter. I've decided that I'm going back to stock paper filters for my stage 3 tune though. Don't like what I've been reading about the panel filters.

 

In the end, Boyce is right. There isn't really a clear definitive answer on these things for you as you do not have a particularly common turbo setup. You should definitely ask your tuner what he thinks will really matter. Good luck!

IC

 

flows more and works better than stock.

 

no cons at all to getting an ic.

 

PIA said i could gain about 10hp from cat back exhaust.

For you not reving past 5500rpm why bother with most of your list.

 

I would do a larger TMIC for better cooling of the air. Beyond that...why waste your money.

 

I'm still running stock fueling.

I'm at about the same point you are at currently except I have a catback already. Personally my next choice is to get an intercooler and step up to a vf52 or a BNR 18g. Along with those I would do upgraded fueling but I think my next engine purchase will be an upgraded TMIC.

 

Just a thought, but if you are stage 2 already what suspension do you have? Recently I've turned from doing engine stuff as I have only been stage 2 for 6 months so I don't want to retune just yet to doing suspension stuff. The bang for your buck in handling is quite fun and used prices on suspension components is not bad. I've got a rear sway bar already on and a front ready to be installed and the handling gains are quite fun. I think next I will look into finding a set of brembo's that need to be rebuilt and get those.

 

Seeing how you drive you car in the lower rpms I think you would have fun with making it handle rather then go fast.

^

Ive also got fresh struts and heavier swaybars.

 

no cons at all to getting an ic.

 

The con is the cost.

Completely missed the struts and sway bars in the original post. My bad. Could look into engine mounts and bushing though.

I don't really have an HP target. As I mentioned top end HP isn't really what I care about. What interests me most is the acceleration feeling or torque and throttle response. I don't drive like a teenager but I do like feeling I've got extras down there when I am passing or on ramps.

 

I went with a JMP because I wanted reliability, fast spool, good torque and at a great price. I opted not to get a used 52 or new 16g because with my driving style I've never pushed my engines that hard past 5000 rpms and I typically shift at or before 4500. With a used 52 I was also worried about the unknown. I might buy a JMP vf52 someday if he ever has one available though.

 

As far as my tuner goes I used someone locally here in MN for a street tune. I had dave at cryotune give my data logs a second opinion and he thought the tuner I used did an good job. I am not certain I want to use that tuner again though and most likely if and when I get tuned again it will be on a Dyno and I shell out more money for the extra care and attention. I hear these stories about how tuners really dial in great tunes and though my tuner was pleasant enough, we did 5 pulls, he adjusted boost only, and then encouraged me not to give him a good review online because it would set his future clients expectations too high. So I don't know. He did help me spot a vacuum leak. So I don't really know who to reach out for to talk about this with.

 

It sounds like a larger TMIC will help with reliability also? Can I put in an IC with out a tune?

 

I think if I can find a used process west, a forge BPV, an ecbs, and a new fuel pump that should be good. Then I'll turn the turbo up to 11, I mean 20.5 psi.

Also I keep thinking about this guys experience with his magic vf46 and think mines got to have the same potential with the right supporting mods.

 

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/my-experience-brentuning-long-read-147552.html

If your not planing on doing a much larger turbo I wouldn't even bother with the intercooler unless you came across a really good deal. Bullet proofing will be all u need as the stock ic does enough for the stock turbo. I don't know what was all done with the vf46 so hard to say what supporting mods would be sufficient.

My vf46 should be considered a vf46+, flows close to a 52 but I don't know what that means specifically as I have not had it dyno tested and I don't know how to interpret the logs.

 

But upgraded intercoolers seem to show gain everytime I look at dyno charts. Right now I am thinking about racerx fmic, vs used process west, vs Grimspeed, vs used avo/perrin. I honestly don't know which is most appropriate.

Even with a vf52 you'd be okay with the stock intercooler. If your not looking to go crazy power wise I'd stick with a tmic over a fmic.

Stay with top mount for your setup. Used Process West is great if you can find one, may still be expensive though. I think the Grimmspeed is nicer than either AVO or Perrin, but those are still an upgrade over stock. I'd go with Grimmspeed if buying now (though I do have a PW that I got new a few years ago ... for a ridiculous price).

What makes grimspeed better then PW? Why tmic vs racerx fmic (racerx is the only fmic id consider because of fitment)? I have seen people rooting for one brand over others but never saying why. As far as tmic vs racerx most people complain about install but not performance. If there is more to it then that...

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/fmic-vs-tmic-dd-legacy-gti-189131.html

 

Read that. I've also seen that fmic can increase lag a bit, but I don't remember where I saw that or if it's really true. Intercoolers are all really about size. The bigger it is, the better it performs. A front mount can get a much bigger intercooler in there and it gets better airflow in that location, but there's a lot of piping and cutting of your bumper beam and other routing issues. It's just a lot of added complexity that you don't need and won't really take advantage of and therefore it's not worth the drawbacks.

 

As far as PW vs Grimmspeed, read up on some reviews to get your own feel for it, but my impression is that the PW will cool a little more, but the Grimmspeed fits better and is cheaper. Both are put together really nicely and would be a great choice, but it's hard to find and more expensive to get the PW. It's cheaper and easier to get the Grimmspeed. If you can find a nice PW for cheap money, go for it. Speaking from experience, the fitment is okay, but by no means perfect though.

 

The biggest top mount you can get that fits our cars is a Spearco piece. I think it's actually front mount that some folks have put in the stock top mount location. I don't know the full details and it's probably also overkill for what you've got. Check it out for the sake of interest though.

 

Either one of those options is better than AVO/Perrin simply because they are bigger. The Perrin is still really popular and has been around forever. Tried and true piece.

 

Further down the list are knock offs and other no name ebay intercoolers. YMMV on these, but most are not put together well, even if they mimic some of the nicer top mounts on the market.

I went with a JMP because I wanted reliability, fast spool, good torque and at a great price. I opted not to get a used 52 or new 16g because with my driving style I've never pushed my engines that hard past 5000 rpms and I typically shift at or before 4500. With a used 52 I was also worried about the unknown. I might buy a JMP vf52 someday if he ever has one available though.

 

As far as my tuner goes I used someone locally here in MN for a street tune. I had dave at cryotune give my data logs a second opinion and he thought the tuner I used did an good job. I am not certain I want to use that tuner again though and most likely if and when I get tuned again it will be on a Dyno and I shell out more money for the extra care and attention. I hear these stories about how tuners really dial in great tunes and though my tuner was pleasant enough, we did 5 pulls, he adjusted boost only, and then encouraged me not to give him a good review online because it would set his future clients expectations too high. So I don't know. He did help me spot a vacuum leak. So I don't really know who to reach out for to talk about this with.

 

It sounds like a larger TMIC will help with reliability also? Can I put in an IC with out a tune?

 

Basically the only way to get a JMP VF52 is to pick up a used VF52 and send it to JMP yourself. They are hard to find used at a good price.

I had Dave at Cryotune e-tune my car and am very happy with his customer service and tuning abilities.

You can install a tmic without tune but won't see any gain until you tune for it. At best you won't heat soak like stock tmic so won't loose timing in warmer weather.

As dujo stated a fmic is a lot more work to install then a tmic. I really like my perrin fmic but it was much more complicated to install then when I had my process west tmic. With a fmic you also have a much higher chance of having boost leaks from all the added couplings. Unless you just want the look of a fmic it really won't be cost effective for your setup.

From what i've read the stock bpv is good to 22-23 psi. I dont plan to boost past that. Is there any other reason to get an aftermarket bpv?

 

Right now my plan is to get dyno'd next week and see where I am at. My goal is 300 wtq. Depending in how close I am it may not be an expensive journey.

This is a perfect thread for me. i literally just had AZP Installs put in a JMP VF-40, Cobb Up pipe and Cobb Catted Downpipe. And I drive similarly to the OP.

 

First thing on the list is a better tune. Any e-tuners who have worked with JMP's custom VF-40?

Actually,

A TMIC is first before tune. I talked with tuner and his feeling was that these modified turbos cause higher intake temps. While my mild driving would probably not over stress the stock TMIC, I am going to upgrade as longevity and reliability is one reason I upgraded the turbo from stock in the first place.

Might just be my butt dyno...but I felt the throttle response got a little better after I installed my PW TMIC along with a Cobb catted DP. Add the protune with a EBCS / Upgrade fuel pump and the power definitely took a turn for the better.