Engine replacement upgrade suggestions?

So after getting a used VF52 turbo, catless up pipe off an '08, Invidia Q300 downpipe and catback exhaust installed, a protune by Boost Controlled Performance (all discussed in this thread) I got to drive my car for a week before the turbo failed throwing shrapnel into my engine ruining it. After having recently put a lot of money (also upgraded the brakes to these , tinted the windows, headlights and tail lights, getting new summer and winter tires, upgrading to LED headlights and various other maintenance) and work into my car we can't really afford to just get a new car. The money I would pay for replacing my engine would not buy a new (used) car of better value.

 

So... its time for a new short block. I'm looking for some suggestions about what kind of upgrades I should get while my engine is being rebuilt. I found a mechanic that is ready, willing and able to rebuild the engine from a new OEM short block. His wife works at a body shop and he can get the parts close to wholesale. We are keeping the heads and accessories from my car and sending the heads off to a machine shop.

 

I will need to buy a new turbo. I don't want this one to fail like the last one (and the stock one before it) did so I will definitely be looking at upgrades to prevent that. I have heard that the VF52 is supposed to be a reliable upgrade but am open to other suggestions as this is what just failed.

 

Here are the things I'm considering to upgrade during this rebuild:

1. Forged internals - I'm not sure if the cost is worth the upgrade here. I'm not looking to go crazy with power upgrades that will push the engine enough to require forged internals. However, I do recognize that this would be a longevity and peace of mind upgrade. Anyone know what the difference in cost would be here?

 

2. Per a suggestion from Max Capacity in another thread I will likely be getting a new oil cooler, pump and pick up tube. Outside of an air oil separator I'm not sure what else can be done to help protect the turbo. I really DON'T want that to fail again.

 

3. The car is going to need another tune again when this is completed. BCP told me they wont tune again without a Cobb AP. Other tuners nearby prefer it as well. I'm probably going to have to bite the bullet and purchase one. Then I'm going to need to find a place to do the tune. I'm hesitant to return to BCP after my recent issues. I may go to a guy my mechanic is suggesting out of Indiana. Suggestions welcome.

 

4. Bigger injectors. Suggestions on this are welcome as well. With the setup I just had I was already maxing the stock injectors. Again, not looking to crazy with power but that is definitely a bottleneck I want to take care of while this is being done.

 

5. Fuel pump. I might hold off on this but that will be my next bottleneck. If I do upgrade it suggestions are welcome. Do you think I should tackle this now or is it safe to wait on this? My wallet is already feeling a lot of pain. I'm thinking that I'll probably be holding off on this until I get a new intercooler. It would give me some time to financially recover as well.

 

Anything else I should do while it is getting rebuilt? I'm mostly looking for suggestions that don't have a large cost, make sense to do during a rebuild, give quality of life, efficiency, longevity upgrades and not just performance. Please send any suggestions my way now before I start making purchases. I really appreciate it!

I believe you should set your power goals first.

Is your LGT AT or MT?

 

Summary:

Heuberger EJ257.

Rebuilt heads.

VF52 (do not see a reason to go bigger as fueling will limit you before turbo. Also, these are reliable new - sorry for the issue with yours, don't let it soil your opinion!)

Leave fuel stock (unless you want to do a bigger pump for corn fuel).

Accessport for tune if you run stock fueling. If you upgrade injectors, might be worth trying to trailer it for a day trip to someone.

End summary: Time for random babbling...

 

As per 1,4 and 5; I would advise staying with stock injectors, and if anything an upgraded fuel pump (Max's power would be the ideal 'goal'). I really like where my VF52 has netted me on a 5EAT. It put me at the "I didn't go all out, but my wallet isn't empty." Yet, still faster than ~75% of the vehicles on the road next to you.

 

In my opinion, don't bother with forged internals under 380+/- 20WHP. I don't want to give a # on cost as I only researched it myself when I first had my LGT, but it was too much to warrant on a daily driver.

Bigger injectors have different spray patterns and aren't the perfect fit for it application, plus you're still side feed like me. So it'd also have new rails for top feed (was that like $200?).

 

Tune wise the Accessport is "convenient," but it isn't cheap as you know.

If you're on stock fuel and a VF52, I ran the factory tune (unknowingly) for months and didn't blow. Just stay out of boost and find a tuner; if no one is within a day trip you trust then I'd advise the accessport and e-tune. I bought the accessport and regret it, but not much of a choice as I have no local in NY tuner that I trust/know w/ a dyno.

Wasted Potential: I was already producing close to 300hp. I don't plan on getting much over 350.

 

My car is AT and has a transmission that is still very strong. ...though knowing my luck it is likely the next thing to go.

 

Everyone keeps suggesting the Heuberger EJ257. My mechanic wanted to go with an OEM 255. Not sure I can get as good of a price on a Heuberger EJ257 as he can on the OEM 255 and if it is worth the difference. I'll look into it more though.

 

I have considered e85. BCP tried to convince me on it. I wasn't prepared to spend the money for it yet but also am not ready to rule it out completely either. The biggest reason I was looking to upgrade injectors is due to them already being maxed out. At high revs you can hear/feel them not pushing enough. It seems a lot like a rev limiter.

 

Just talked to BCP again today. They said the same thing about injectors. They did say they could send me a base map to get it there, though. Trust is an issue. I have become bitter and paranoid due to getting burned by bad work in the past. Not even certain I fully trust BCP. Of course they say the turbo failure wasn't their fault. The person I bought the turbo from says he doesn't see how it could have failed. I will probably never know if the turbo was the cause or just the point of failure but it doesn't help my trust issues at all with who works on my car. I have to trust someone though when it comes to tuning.

I should also mention that when I talked to BCP today that they recommended that if I am looking at forged internals to just do forged pistons. They don't see value in replacing anything else with my goals.

300hp or whp?

 

350 fly wheel with 15 percent drivetrain loss is under 300whp. And if you can void 1.5-2k cost (injectors, rails, AFR sensor, etc) for 10 to 20 whp, i would.

 

Ej257 is only 1700 before shipping. Think it has stronger crank than ej255?

285whp. My dyno sheet is in the other thread. I'm saying I'm already at around 300whp. I could see going as high as 350whp but no higher. I'm just talking end goals here.

 

I'll ask about the EJ257 again. I'm also planning on asking about forged pistons.

Stock fueling at 285whp through a 5eat?

Havent seen that before actually! Good numbers

 

Im sure someone with more experience on these motors will chime in, my experience is just back to recalling web surfing so take my input with a grain of salt lol

It will be more after the rebuild. But this is my dyno sheet:

I will second Wasted Potential's suggestion, it's the path of least resistance and good returns.

 

My suggestion is set your power goals based on a budget. Stick to the budget and add in 25% extra unknown costs.

 

I have built a block from scratch with forged internals, go fast bits, and shiny things - costs rise quickly and dramatically. The time it takes to complete is much longer than expected. Going the OEM route is faster, easier, and cheaper.

 

The adages "you have to pay to play" and "whatever can happen, will happen" apply here.

Anyone have any experience with upgrading fuel injectors without going the top mount route? I was looking at these which do not require heavy modification to the fuel system and are just drop in injectors with better performance than stock. It looks like they go up to 1000cc which is honestly probably more than I need. No idea how they perform or on their dependability.

Ok, I'm getting really deeply confused trying to find the differences between a EJ255 and EJ257. I've done several searches and read through several forums and have come up pretty empty handed. Does anyone know definitively what the difference between them are with a short block?

 

I have heard that the heads differ but match up so that shouldn't matter, right? I can still use the heads off my car after getting them machined? I have heard differing opinions on which heads are better between 255 and 257 so... its probably all a wash as that is a big cost I would rather avoid if I can reuse my heads.

 

Also, I'm now a bit confused about injectors. I thought my car had side feed injectors. I have never actually looked as it is hidden beneath the plastic shroud on top of the engine. I also don't have my car with me now to look.

 

So then it is down to... what? Pistons, rods and cam? I have heard 257 could have forged pistons? If so that is something I was looking into anyway.

 

I just wanna make sure I get the right/best parts and right now my head is kinda spinning and I can't find what the differences actually ARE.

Shortblock in reference to EJ255 and 257 do not have heads installed but use same mounting and jackets from block to head.

Stick with your heads, i think theyre B25s? Cannot recall. But when you change heads you will have to change some oil channels or OCV or something. Stay with your stock heads.

 

I will look for the definitive difference later today and post for you. But i think i posted on here my findings before when i went through this debate.

No debate on my part. I admit my ignorance on this topic. I also admit my failing in googlefu. Everything I can find on this is a debate and I cannot find any definitive answer.

 

So, they just have different pistons, rods and cam? Or?

Which short block is desirable and why?

ENGINE COMPONENTS

Information from Unclemat's posts here (Legacygt), and here (nasioc).

05-06 LGT = 04-07 STi except intercooler, turbo, and pistons.

 

Except... Pistons different - explained here

Seems crankshaft, rods, etc. are same. Seems some current productions they change the crankshaft they use though.

When you ask about camshafts that comes back to the heads used not block I believe.

 

FUELING

05-06 LGT are side feed stock. Can buy 07+ LGT rails, injectors and TGV (think FPR is needed too) to replace.

I thought someone said the side feed helps (not noticeable that I would assume) at idle or something interesting like that.

Also better flow top feed.

I also think we talked about the difference in my "click here" link in my sig.

 

You want a EJ257, they are cheaper then a EJ255, last time we checked Heuberger. There is no real difference that matters. Follow my thread. Use my Tuner. Safe reliable DD. Many have followed my lead. My heads have some mild porting, but I think I talk about in the link.

 

When I bought my 257, in 2012 they still came with the better crank, the pistons are a little different shape for compression, but that doesn't effect anything, let the Tuner know you have the current EJ257 Subaru is producing. That's what you will get when you order the EJ257. Make sure you get the gasket set for your year car.

Turbo H6...do it, no regrets to be had.

Just out of immediate curious-ness... whats that cost?? Im sure no one has created an off the shelf kit lol

I would guess 30k to get started https://www.perrin.com/blog/post/perrin-h6-build-up

Pesos?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I wish.

So got my car over to the mechanic today. Drove it onto the trailer and off the trailer. Aside from the white smoke and angry turbo noises it didn't really sound bad. When the mechanic got home he gave it a look over and started it and listened to it. He calls me and says, "I'm not really sure why we are replacing the engine on this. It doesn't sound like there is anything mechanically wrong with it. The turbo is definitely dead but if it was me?... I'd just throw a new turbo on it flush the oil a couple of times and see how she runs."

 

I discussed with him that BCP refused to even cut the filter and told me that they thought the engine was just dead. I was a bit confused when they told me that as it was running when I left it. I mean, I know metal in the engine isn't good but in my past experiences with this if it didn't throw a rod, get a valve stuck open or at least experiencing tappet knock then the engine seems like it could be fine. His (our) theory is that the shop is trying to get rid of me by whatever means necessary. And... maybe that is true. He thinks it is due to the car being an '06 and BCP is being kinda snobby about working on an older car. Also, with the turbo detonating like it did they may want out from under it as even if they fixed it they don't want the bad reputation for having engine problems right after their work. Well, I feel like they already crossed that line but can understand wanting to save face.

 

Whichever the case the mechanic doesn't really want to provide me any direction. He can do whatever work I want done but doesn't want to give any suggestions. I'm not certain what to do but it seems like if I just get a new turbo, do the oil flush, maybe a bore scope or something? Lets say it looks fine with the scope, no terrible amount of particulates in the oil, throw a new turbo on it and it seems to run fine. Worst case scenario some piece of metal sneaks it's way into a cylinder and manages to throw a piston and I blow the engine. Well, at that point I'm in no worse position than I am currently, right? It isn't like the engine going is going to damage any of the other parts I have replaced.

 

Can anyone here offer me some suggestions of anything I should have checked out? Or maybe this is just a bad plan and I should go for the replacement? If I do just put a new turbo on is there anything else I can/should do to ... clean the engine? Or ensure that it is going to run well after this issue?

I also need to get a new turbo. I'd like to go with a new VF52 turbo again so I can keep the same tune. Perhaps I should have some other things replaced while in there though like oil cooler, pump and pickup tube? Maybe an air/oil separator?

 

Can anyone recommend a good setup for this? I've heard mixed reviews on the GrimmSpeed air/oil separator and don't know a lot about the rest. As far as the turbo goes I could get one OEM but is there a better option? At the mechanic's suggestion I'll be calling Turbo Concepts later today regarding the turbo.

If your engine does decide to blow up after you replace the turbo, you may need to buy yet another new turbo along with a new engine...

 

Food for thought.

Would I possibly? I was under the impression that turbos can ruin engines but almost never the other way around. Educate me. Was I perhaps mistaken on that?

Metal particles in the oil system is not good for the journal bearings in the turbo.

 

If the old turbo blew and put metal into the oil system and "oil cooler", these particles will be release over time from the oil cooler, taking out the next turbo and/or engine bearings.

 

We need to know the build date of your car, inside drivers door jam. cars built in mid 2005 to mid 2006 had a oil pick tube that was prone to cracking.

 

To ensure a good engine, you need to replace the oil pump, oil cooler, oil pick up tube, have the heads rebuilt by a good machine shop, have machine shop clean valve covers and oil pan, get a ej257 short block and gasket kit for your year car, Aisin timing belt kit.

 

I seem to say this a lot, but read my click here link in my sig. Granted I did my rebuild not because of engine problems. I chose to do it on my terms, after reading stores here for many years. I know I was luck and have a buddy that owns a well respected machine shop. I would think in your area some of the farmers may know a great machine shop. Ask around. My buddies shop goes to all the local fairs and antique engine shows.

 

Good Luck, keep asking us for help. We're here for you.

Gotcha on the turbo oil.

 

Talked to Turbo Concepts just now. They want to get the turbo that is on the car to inspect it to find the point of failure. Their kit comes with new lines, etc so I'm not sure how relevant the information from my door jam would be as that is going to be replaced anyway.

 

Regarding replacing the oil pump, cooler and tubes I'm totally on board with that. About having the heads rebuilt, clean valve covers and oil pan, new gaskets and timing belt ... how much do you figure that would cost? Would I be further ahead just dropping a new short block in at that point?