Rusted Rear Brake Lines - Subaru won't honor their recall?

My soon to be 20 year old Infiniti doesn't have this issue.

 

I wouldn't complain if there was no recall, recall determined that Subaru used inferior materials or designs, which prematurely rusts the brake lines, ie manufacturing defect. If there was no safety recall, I would agree with you, but Government and Subaru should fix it.

 

Maybe GM is too far in bed with the government and is able to keep the safety recalls underwraps?

They ruled it's the owners responsibility to maintain cleanliness of their vehicles and that proper cleaning would not rust the lines. They put a plastic coating on them these days but they can be a pita when you need to brake the fitting loose to replace a hose. I found heating the fitting to melt the plastic and then wiping it off helps prevent twisting the line.

Exactly what I was trying to say but everyone was too busy with the "RA RA RA SUBARU SHOULD FIX IT!!". I get that you're all pissed, it would be really nice if dealers just warrantied brakes forever as a safety thing (or just designed them better) but it is not the case. These cars are 10+ years old, the one in the photo is an '05. That's a twelve year old car, yeah man brake lines rust.

Even if it is a known issue, those lines don't look unusual at all to me. Definitely something you'd want to fix, but after 12 years that's what happens quite commonly with all makes of automobiles.

 

The only way to truly prevent it is to keep the underside of your car it super clean at all times, and even then sometimes you're just screwed in those hard to reach places.

 

You've seriously all never experienced rusty brake lines on any other car before? Have you always owned brand new cars or something? Idk about you guys, but I've owned cars with wayyyyyy more rust than that in my younger years (hell, not even that long ago) and have popped a brake line on more than a couple occasions. It's a common thing to have to repair (hopefully it's caught before it gets that bad, but shit happens). I've noticed plenty of poorly designed parts on cars that would have lasted longer if made better, but never once have I thought "this must be the manufacturer's fault, I'll make them pay!" Just fix your car when it needs repair. Not like this is a brand new vehicle...

In this instance the manufacturer has acknowledged a problem and as a result has issued several recalls.

Update: Subaru of America is still unwilling to negotiate beyond giving me a discount on a new car. Even then, the maximum they will offer is only $750. Looks like a claim with the NHTSA is my only remaining option besides fixing this thing myself. I wasn't about to pay $3000+ for the dealer to replace everything, so I had to give the loaner back and have my car towed home.

 

In other news, I had trouble getting my car out of the service lot because it didn't want to move at all. As it so happens, the tow truck used for the trip to the dealership 3 weeks ago was not a flatbed... guess whose center diff and transmission are now probably wrecked? For anyone who might be wondering, when the tow driver tells you not to worry because he "disabled the AWD just like he's done on every Subaru for over 6 years," he is lying.

I would certainly contact the NHTSA. I'm guessing they would be interested to see that the SOA corrective action was ineffective and that there are cars that could cause accidents on the road with a known safety issue that was reportedly corrected.

When I used to work in the auto industry as a tier 2 supplier of parts, the JDM & (US)JDM was EXTREMELY picky about part quality to the point they put several of their suppliers out of business by forcing 200-300% inspection costs to the supplier if one part had damage on it. Some of the requirements were ridiculous. They learned their lesson in the mid 2000's and stopped doing this. I'm guessing the pendulum swung too far the wrong way. Part quality started to slip as they scrambled to keep suppliers in business and tried to find other suppliers to make parts for them to keep the assembly lines running. Unfortunately, there were failures in the field which triggered recalls. Materials have changed and lessons were learned from these defects.

With regards to recalls, I know people that have worked in dealership service centers. Recalls are a PITA and mechanics try to get through them as quickly as possible. The more recalls they get done, the more money in the mechanic's and dealer's pocket. Many times the recall gets pencil whipped after a quick inspection. If they did spray on the corrosion inhibitor per the recall, did they prep the surface properly for proper adherence? Did they shake the can to what the instructions stated? Was the inspection performed properly and corrective action implemented properly? The burden of proof is on the dealership for this. My wife worked in dealer audit and she had findings at every single dealership that showed that documentation is poor, work was not actually performed, and repeat issues were common. However, the dealership ALWAYS charged back the OEM properly for the work they did! Amazing!!! In one instance, a dealership charged the OEM for a warranty repair to replace a headlight bulb. Cost of the bulb was about $15, but the labor added another $485. When asked how long it should take, the dealership was pretty embarrassed and agreed to a $450 charge back.

With regards to those saying that these are 10-12 year old vehicles and these parts wear out, I would argue that point. Brake lines are not a wear item and should not fail. There is no service interval called out in the Subaru manual for these for inspection. If the line rusted from the inside out, I could see your point. Inspection and change of brake fluid is a service interval and failure to do so is neglect. This is plain and simple a manufacturers defect that was called out by several organizations but not corrected properly.

Good luck on the transmission and center diff. That really adds insult to injury.

CapnJack brings up a good point. I was also wondering how well the corrosion inhibitor was applied if the leak still occurred. It could have been applied perfectly, who knows.

I do a lot of driving in the winter time, and I have probably racked up around 100k in the 4 years since I had the treatment applied. My brake lines and joint connector still look virtually the same as they did 4 years ago, maybe even better with the treatment. So that leads me to think that the corrosion inhibitor is an excellent product. I still worry about it wearing off, but we'll see. If you had a failure after the procedure was done, that leads me to think the inhibitor wasn't applied properly, or your brake lines were very close to failing when it was applied.

Out of curiosity, I inspected my lines again recently, and have attached a picture.

One more thing, and this is an honest question. When inspecting my lines recently, I could feel a split with my nail on the top of one of the brake lines, where the red box is. I thought that was new, but after looking at my old pictures, I think it has always been there. It isn't leaking fluid, but I still don't understand how the line is able to split when there is no visible rust where the split is. I've been good about having my brake fluid replaced by subaru once every 2 years or so. They tend to overfill the brake fluid reservoir, so I don't know if that can cause problems, extra pressure in the system or something?

Overfilled brake reservoir won't impact anything except if it floods over and destroys the paint in the engine compartment but that's hardly a major issue.

Your pics seems pretty OK, except that they should have cleaned the pipes before spraying, but that's a minor issue. Doesn't look like it's a big problem.

But for a full diagnosis I'd make an X-ray of the pipe!

First of all, I want to thank you jcaroth for this thread, you probably saved my or my families life because I drive aggressively and in the mountains a lot. I finally looked under to see how the Subaru's wax fix was holding up from 2014.

Results are scary.

http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=256783&stc=1&d=1508120202

http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=256784&stc=1&d=1508120202

As a reminder here is what they looked like after the recall.

http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=256530&stc=1&d=1507603526

Looks like Subaru's fix for WQK-47 did jack squat. This just goes to show, if you cover rust with spray paint or even rubberized underbody spray, it will continue to rust on the inside and eventually get out.

I really want Subaru to fix this, but to be honest I don't trust that their fix will be long lasting either. Thus I probably will be building a retrofit fix, does anyone know what size lines our cars use under there? EDIT: Looks like 3/16" hardlines.

Your pics seems pretty OK, except that they should have cleaned the pipes before spraying, but that's a minor issue. Doesn't look like it's a big problem.

I forgot to mention that picture from 4 years ago was a week or two before I took the car in for the treatment, the subaru tech might have cleaned up my lines before spraying them, I'm not sure.

Virtually all of the brake lines on most modern cars are 3/16". I would purchase copper nickel line, fittings, and make my own if it were me. Copper Nickel line is very easy to bend and flare and you can make them fit perfectly. It will take some work but will never be a rust issue again.

That's the plan, pricing out flaring tool and copper nickel lines right now.

That's the plan, pricing out flaring tool and copper nickel lines right now.

Get an inline flaring tool. You'll thank me later. I have a cheap crappy one, and it's worlds better than the bar style I've used before.

Currently in the middle of doing the brake and fuel lines on my accord with nicopp tubing. Also adding an adjustable proportioning valve because racecar (more accurately because it's getting a rear disk conversion soon).

NAPA had all the brake lines hanging on a rack for my 86 F150 last month. Easy to bend by hand and come with flares on them.

Just measure yours and buy that length.

Get an inline flaring tool. You'll thank me later. I have a cheap crappy one, and it's worlds better than the bar style I've used before.

 

Currently in the middle of doing the brake and fuel lines on my accord with nicopp tubing. Also adding an adjustable proportioning valve because racecar (more accurately because it's getting a rear disk conversion soon).

Yup noticed that too about flaring tools. Went with OEM TOOLS 24364 it's $10 right now on Amazon. Eastwood's inline tool looked nicer, but after looking at both of them in use, I think the OEM Tools one will be easier to use since you can fit a wrench on the body.

I ordered Stainless Steel 3/8"-24 fittings, just need to find stainless steel connectors now.

Yup noticed that too about flaring tools. Went with OEM TOOLS 24364 it's $10 right now on Amazon. Eastwood's inline tool looked nicer, but after looking at both of them in use, I think the OEM Tools one will be easier to use since you can fit a wrench on the body.

 

I ordered Stainless Steel 3/8"-24 fittings, just need to find stainless steel connectors now.

I believe the connections into the 2-way connector (part number 26534AA000) are metric. Also, it might be worth replacing that while you're in there, it's only about $12 from the dealer.

Thanks for the part number, I'm actually thinking about bypassing it and throwing it away (since it's steel and would rust again). Though looking at 26534AA000 it looks like it might be brass, unlike my stock one.

Right now I'm thinking of replacing the two lines from the back seat to past the 2 way connector (where ever the lines are no longer rusty). I'm thinking of just using inline union connectors without anything special.

Yup noticed that too about flaring tools. Went with OEM TOOLS 24364 it's $10 right now on Amazon. Eastwood's inline tool looked nicer, but after looking at both of them in use, I think the OEM Tools one will be easier to use since you can fit a wrench on the body.

 

I ordered Stainless Steel 3/8"-24 fittings, just need to find stainless steel connectors now.

I think mine is the CalVan one, but it was under $40 so I can't imagine we're looking at an especially large difference in quality. I bought it a few years ago, not 100% on why I picked that model. It might have covered more line sizes than the $10 ones did.

My soon to be 20 year old Infiniti doesn't have this issue.

 

I wouldn't complain if there was no recall, recall determined that Subaru used inferior materials or designs, which prematurely rusts the brake lines, ie manufacturing defect. If there was no safety recall, I would agree with you, but Government and Subaru should fix it.

 

Maybe GM is too far in bed with the government and is able to keep the safety recalls underwraps?

FWIW about rusty brake lines, I had to replace both front lines from the distribution block to the flex hoses last month on my 1986 Ford F150, for the first time.

 

It's spent most of it life sitting on the lawn. Only spent a few years of it life on the driveway.

 

Sometime in the early 2000's manufactures decide to go cheaper on the brake lines...bad idea.

Yeah, my 87 Chevy truck has perfect brake lines too barely even surface rust. You're right the metal has gotten thinner and rusts easier now, which was a bad idea for sure. I just finally lost one of the original brake lines on my 1981 Datsun 280zx after it's been sitting under a tarp in the back yard for 4 years. The fact that everything on newer cars is packed in tight places where salt/sand/moisture like to hang out on modern cars only exacerbates the issue.

I'm not saying this problem is cool or anything, but if they won't fix it, they won't fix it and we should move on. We're all car guys here, most of us should be handy enough to grab some brake line from the auto parts store and fix it in an afternoon. Really not a hard fix.

The ones who aren't capable still don't need to go get raped at the dealer, I'm sure the local Joe Schmoe Bros garage up the street can fix it for like 2-3 hundred bucks at most.

Yeah, my 87 Chevy truck has perfect brake lines too barely even surface rust. You're right the metal has gotten thinner and rusts easier now, which was a bad idea for sure. I just finally lost one of the original brake lines on my 1981 Datsun 280zx after it's been sitting under a tarp in the back yard for 4 years. The fact that everything on newer cars is packed in tight places where salt/sand/moisture like to hang out on modern cars only exacerbates the issue.

 

I'm not saying this problem is cool or anything, but if they won't fix it, they won't fix it and we should move on. We're all car guys here, most of us should be handy enough to grab some brake line from the auto parts store and fix it in an afternoon. Really not a hard fix.

 

The ones who aren't capable still don't need to go get raped at the dealer, I'm sure the local Joe Schmoe Bros garage up the street can fix it for like 2-3 hundred bucks at most.

My concern is for all the non car guys who aren't reading enthusiast forums. This is a very dangerous issue and was deemed enough so that multiple recalls were issued for it. If the corrective action is insufficient then people's lives are at risk or serious injury / death.

My concern is for all the non car guys who aren't reading enthusiast forums. This is a very dangerous issue and was deemed enough so that multiple recalls were issued for it. If the corrective action is insufficient then people's lives are at risk or serious injury / death.

This 100%. For this reason, even though I'm gonna fix my own lines soon, I just submitted a NHTSA complaint with pictures. I look at it this way, would my parents or non car friends be in danger because of this "fixed" recall, if they owned one of these cars?

My concern is for all the non car guys who aren't reading enthusiast forums. This is a very dangerous issue and was deemed enough so that multiple recalls were issued for it. If the corrective action is insufficient then people's lives are at risk or serious injury / death.

I have to agree with you. I was lucky my break happened in my driveway. If it had been a few hours later it could have happened getting off the exit ramp from the highway into traffic at the stop light...

I think Subaru will try to weasel their way out of this, in fact they already have. The wording of the TSB indicates the fault is not in the brake lines, but "a gap in the fuel tank protector, resulting in excessive corrosion of the brake lines."

Brake line corrosion is the owner's problem. The fuel tank protector gap is Subaru's problem, which indirectly leads to "excessive" corrosion. Subaru can simply claim the brake line corrosion for cars post-recall is due to age and driving environment, not a defect they are responsible for.

I think Subaru will try to weasel their way out of this, in fact they already have. The wording of the TSB indicates the fault is not in the brake lines, but "a gap in the fuel tank protector, resulting in excessive corrosion of the brake lines."

 

Brake line corrosion is the owner's problem. The fuel tank protector gap is Subaru's problem, which indirectly leads to "excessive" corrosion. Subaru can simply claim the brake line corrosion for cars post-recall is due to age and driving environment, not a defect they are responsible for.

They can claim whatever they like but that won't make it so. If an attorney were to get involved I bet their position would change. I think the pictures posted by covertrussian provide ample evidence the recall fix is insufficient to address the problem.

They can claim whatever they like but that won't make it so. If an attorney were to get involved I bet their position would change. I think the pictures posted by covertrussian provide ample evidence the recall fix is insufficient to address the problem.

If no brake fluid seepage is observed, the affected area will be rustproofed with anti-corrosion wax. If brake fluid seepage is observed, the brake lines will be replaced followed by rustproofing with anti-corrosion wax. These services will be performed free of charge.

No seepage was observed when the recall service was done. Even though covertrussian's brake lines are about to rust through any minute now...

According to the TSB, the brakes would need to already be failing, squirting fluid, before they would replace any brake lines. Do I agree with this? Of course not!

My concern is for all the non car guys who aren't reading enthusiast forums. This is a very dangerous issue and was deemed enough so that multiple recalls were issued for it. If the corrective action is insufficient then people's lives are at risk or serious injury / death.

This statement can be applied to many things. One example being the bed on my Tundra that will some day disconnect from the frame. I pray I'm not hauling wood on the day it takes off and yet Toyota won't cover that under a TSB because the truck is older than 5yrs but they have no problem issuing a TSB for sticky door handles that are covered for 8yrs. Priorities backwards much?

Sorry to go OT but it's not just Subaru pulling shady shit with their safety bulletins and recalls.