Interpreting data, knock and learning views - What's it all mean?

I need some help.. Forever I was one of the people who have had a Cobb AP, and have been running either a Stg1 or Stg2 map. Set it and forget it.

 

Until recently I purchased heiche's BtSsm mobile Android app and bluetooth adapter, and suddenly I have this wealth of information at my finger tips, which is all well and good.

 

But now I'm asking myself with my extremely average intelligence, "What do all these numbers mean and is my wagon actually running properly now that I'm paying attention?" It became pretty clear that it wasn't running it's best even though everything seemed to be fine.

 

So I didn't know much about learning views, but I started to read about it and recognized pretty quickly that I have some potentially alarming issues based on the learning view attached below.

 

Here are some threads that got me started down that road:

 

http://www.romraider.com/forum/topic4899.html

 

http://www.romraider.com/forum/topic1840.html

 

 

Then yesterday I'm cruising down the highway, which is rare for me (live rural) and I see this flash up on my screen, which prompted me to park the wagon indefinitely:

 

KNOCK DETECTED at 2015-04-17 04:56:42 PM

AFR: 14.4

Boost (psi): -6.5

Boost Target (psi): 1.1

Coolant (degF): 185

FKC (deg): -7.03

FLKC (deg): -1.41

IAM: 1.000

Injector PW (ms): 3.8

Knocks: 26

Load (g/rev): 0.59

MAF (g/s): 26

Misfire cyl 1: 0

Misfire cyl 2: 0

Misfire cyl 3: 0

Misfire cyl 4: 0

RPM: 2656

Speed (mph): 62.8

Throttle plate (%): 14.9

Timing (deg): 33.0

VVT int L (deg): 15

VVT int R (deg): 15

 

Afaik this started suddenly, like yesterday. I'm running basic stg2 hardware, on Cobb's stg2 91oct map while actually using 93oct. In heavy boost I don't see knock like this and I'm hitting 16psi of boost no problem. Wagon idles like glass, purrs like a Subaru should, very rare misfire, gas mileage is consistently 19mpg around town.

 

So this is now definitely starting to get over my head, but I'm told my issues are probably related to an improper tune and I also need to investigate leaks. With 143k miles I'd just as soon take it all apart and bulletproof any areas that typically leak. So, where are all the potential leak points?

 

-I have a newer stock BP'd tmic.

-Blue T fitting is super glued and zip tied at each port.

-I believe I might have an UP leak and/or exhaust manifold leak, which I'll likely be pulling everything apart and replacing gaskets.

-I'm going to grab the turbo to TMIC gasket a lot of people are using, but my BPV has a gasket. Both seem nice and snug.

-I have a new OEM turbo inlet, but I'm dreading installing it. Although I have a newer VF40 that I might install as preventative maintenance, which would prompt a new turbo inlet and new intake manifold gaskets.

 

What else?

 

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Lastly, this sort of information is becoming extremely cheap and easy to gather, and I encourage you all to learn more about it. So please feel free to share your info/questions here too.

AF Learning #1A is a bit high, could be a slight leak but the symptom is often a pegged value there (15% typically). Check around underhood for something that might be rattling & triggering the large FBKC you're seeing. The double count FLKC seen in your LV above 1 g/rev load & 4000 rpm should be looked into.

 

If you want to try an experiment, you could use the AP to reset the ECU, then use it to globally pull -2 deg timing & drive normally for a while to see if the FLKC returns. If it doesn't, the OTS map might simply be running a little too much timing for your particular car in those rpm/load regions.

 

If you download AccessTuner Race you could potentially make those adjustments yourself & flash the edited map but you're probably better off getting that done by someone w/ the appropriate experience. I know what I'd try w/ that OTS timing table but I've been working w/ my tune for a while (I started w/ a protune 2 summers ago & have made numerous changes since then).

Looking at your knock event report, this seems to me like noise. You are not under boost and not under load and the knock correction goes crazy. There is probably something rattling pretty bad somewhere when you get around that rpm range.

 

And yeah, carefully check for vacuum leaks. Positive fuel corrections in the LV indicate that.

As you probably know, you want those values between +/-5%.

Thanks fellas.

 

Yeah, that knock event is really odd to me. I was seeing other smaller events like it at about the same RPM. What kind of noise can cause those events, any sort of examples? Not seeing anything.

Yeah, please don't be alarmed by an occasional knock event. They happen. If you get a lot of them, or often in certain rpm/load areas, then that might be cause for concern. You can (as you have) look at your LV for a nice overall picture

It could be any exhaust heat shield. Have a good look at the ones around the engine bay. You'd have to drop the plastic undercover.

Heat shields are snug, but look like hell. Gonna cut them off and wrap everything, install the UP blanket I've had on my shelf for over a year, replace gaskets.

 

Cleaned my MAF and IAT sensors, which were filthy. My idle and MPG were great tho, so who knows there.

 

TMIC is off and all lines look great. There is a light colored condensation sludge around the turbo inlet, oil residue too. I have an OEM turbo and inlet on the shelf, will replace intake manifold gaskets too. Should solve any/all leaks at least.

 

Still don't know what to think about the knock, but we'll see what happens!

cool - sounds like you probably found a leak near that oily area. those turbo inlet hoses like to fall apart where they clamp to the turbo.

The knock event and the LV table, are they related?

 

I'm assuming the knock event triggered the LV table to respond with the -.35 next to 2600rpm in the table. Is this correct?

More or less, yes. A knock event causes feedback knock correction (FBKC) which reduces the timing momentarily as long as it does not keep knocking. That is then stored in memory. If the same knock event occurs in the same area often enough triggering FBKC, then this is applied to another parameter known as Fine Learning Knock Correction which is where you are getting that -.35.

I need to keep reading.

 

I don't see knock events with my BtSsm when I'm in the 3000rpm+ range and in moderate boost. The LV show FLKC in that range.

You might not see knock notifications or FKC all the time in the example you gave of 3000rpm+. But if the ECU saw knock events there at some point (maybe when you didn't have BtSsm running to see it), it may have caused FLKC (as seen in the LV).

 

Oh btw, another way to look at these 2 fields is:

-FKC: Short term, and disappears right away

-FLKC: Long term, and can stay even after car is turned off/on

^Yes. And so you don't get confused;

 

FKC=FBKC=Feedback Knock Correction. Some software has the extra letter.

Since your TMIC is off, have a good look at your throttle body hose. The slight leak there can cause havoc in terms of knock, off A/F corrections and A/F learnings. Ask me how I know..

Yep, I've taken a close look at the throttle body hose, and it appears to be nice and snug.

 

Cheap replacement, was thinking about it just for peace of mind too.

Just triple check it again, especially once the TMIC is back on. Is it stock or a silicone hose btw?

 

Also, I like to give a few 'light' bumps with my fist on the driver side edge of the tmic and listen for anything vibrating. That's how I found one day a few rocks stuck between a heatshield and the stock downpipe. When I was hitting the tmic with my fist, I could hear the gravels moving around making lots of noise.

I need to keep reading.

 

I don't see knock events with my BtSsm when I'm in the 3000rpm+ range and in moderate boost. The LV show FLKC in that range.

 

to clarify further, you won't see the knock event icon (yellow warning sign) for just FLKC, with the newest (newer) version of BtSsm. the yellow icon only triggers on FKC (aka FBKC as described above). FKC is active adjustment of timing. FLKC is learned (planned) adjustment of timing.

 

If you're monitoring FLKC (digital gauge, or text table), any value you see there is usually the value coming out of the LV table, being applied to the engine for that RPM/Load range. if you're logging FLKC, you can see the learned value change during a log. this wouldn't be possible to notice on the instantaneous basis. the only way you can notice this is by checking your LV regularly, to see if any cell has changed after a knock event, from the previous time you looked at the LV.

 

if you held the throttle steady around 4k RPM in the load ranges where there is FLKC in the LV table, you would probably see the value (roughly) from the table in the "Current" column of the monitored FLKC parameter.

Thanks again everyone. Definitely helping me get a better understanding, I really appreciate it.

 

 

Throttle body hose is stock. I'm thinking about replacing it tho, just since it's now 10 years old. I'm nearly certain there are no leaks there.

I understand fuel trims being within normal range at +/-5%, and they are indicative of a problem when approaching double digits, but at what point do the adjustments in the LV table tell me I should probably not be driving the car?

 

Also, just as a hypothetical, if the original knock event I posted of -7.03 FKC occurred in WOT would it be considered a potentially catastrophic event? And even if it's false knock does it effect my car negatively?

 

I'm supposed to get my windows tinted tomorrow AM and I haven't made any leak corrections I've discussed. Should I not be driving my wagon?

 

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http://forum.liberty.asn.au/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=20196&start=0

 

Scroll down for an infographic describing how RomRaider LV works

 

Lastly, to anyone reading/learning about this stuff too. This was shared with me in another thread and I found it very helpful.

in my opinion, which isn't much further educated than yours, but i've got some feelings on what is "bad" from talking with my tuner a bunch, you car is safe to drive.

 

it is adding fuel at idle, but you're pretty close to hitting your expected AFR in the other g/s ranges.

 

the knock table is pulling timing around 4000 RPM across the load range. this is the upper end of highway cruise. however your IAM is still 1.0 (top of your screen shot from first page) so it's not pulling timing from the entire map.

 

I would drive it, and keep track of the LV after your trips, and see if it's getting worse. also, keep an eye on your knock events and see where in the RPM range they are, and what the load/boost is. low load and low boost knock is fairly benign, from what I gather.

 

I would say it's worth a discussion with your tuner, but if you drive it like a sane person (no WOT and avoid going hard if you can, sometimes we can't for safety) you should be fine.

 

btw - were you driving through CT last weekend? your car looks like one I spotted...

 

 

edit: false knock just lowers your timing briefly, but shouldn't be harmful to the car. yes, if that -7 knock was at WOT that could have been very real and potentially harmful. I don't know how it figures out how much timing to pull per-knock, but I think if you're logging and you see the knock incrementing (-1,-2,-3, etc) as you go through the WOT pull, that is bad.

Excellent, tremendous help.

 

I was not in CT tho.

Any solutions to this im in the same boat

http://www.romraider.com/RomRaider/HowToUnderstandKnockControl

 

http://www.romraider.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=5371

How should I interpret this?

 

Still not completely in the know with data logging..

 

KNOCK DETECTED at 2016-04-25 06:41:35 PM

AFR: 12.7

Boost (psi): 6.80

Coolant (degF): 199

FKC (deg): -2.11

FLKC (deg): -1.40

IAM: 1.000

Injector PW (ms): 11.3

Intake (degF): 89

Knocks: 4

Load (g/rev): 1.71

MAF (g/s): 95.79

Misfire cyl 1: 0

Misfire cyl 2: 0

Misfire cyl 3: 0

Misfire cyl 4: 0

RPM: 3366

Speed (mph): 82.0

Throttle pedal (%): 45.1

Throttle plate (%): 52.2

Timing (deg): 21.5

VVT int L (deg): 10

VVT int R (deg): 9

 

KNOCK DETECTED at 2016-04-25 06:41:28 PM

AFR: 13.9

Boost (psi): 2.70

Coolant (degF): 199

FKC (deg): -2.11

FLKC (deg): 0.00

IAM: 1.000

Injector PW (ms): 8.2

Intake (degF): 91

Knocks: 3

Load (g/rev): 1.36

MAF (g/s): 66.75

Misfire cyl 1: 0

Misfire cyl 2: 0

Misfire cyl 3: 0

Misfire cyl 4: 0

RPM: 2951

Speed (mph): 70.2

Throttle pedal (%): 24.7

Throttle plate (%): 31.8

Timing (deg): 30.5

VVT int L (deg): 12

VVT int R (deg): 12

random occurrence the other day? or does it happen all the time? doesn't look too bad, but this is coming from someone who doesn't freak out over a little bit of knock, or learned knock. some people are purists and their tables must be clean at all times.