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2019 Subaru Ascent Mid-sized SUV - True 3-row vehicle


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Agreed to the Nissan deal and I appreciate Subaru CVT's being pull type chain driven. I've been paying attention to the failures on the Ascent forums. While they are statistically low and most likely faulty part related, it made me realize that we are betting $8k on a couple solenoids.

 

Problem is, all solenoids fail in time, for example my AVCS oil control valves committed suicide at 130k miles. 130k miles is not bad at all, especially since they were easy to replace, about $200, and no internal engine damage was caused. Now imagine of the OCV's were extra depressed and wanted to go out with a big bang, so they commit murder-suicide and take the engine out with them (which they can if they over advance an valves hit pistons). We would be singing a different story, because having to replace the whole engine at 130k miles is not a trait of a reliable car. In this analogy, CVT's oil control valves are not only suicidal, but they really want to go out with their names in the headlines.

 

With my AVCS OCV's, I knew they were bad because I happened to have my laptop connected and logging when they failed, I drove home 10 miles and I replaced them before ECU even knew something was wrong. Now the newer Subarus tend to show a bunch of lights when the CVT starts slipping and fails, but there is no $200 solenoid to replace and your good to go, it's $8k for the whole new transmission...

 

I think the CVT transmission should be designed to be more serviceable and fail more gracefully. At that point I think I would have a lot less issues with them, even if it needs those major "tune ups" at 100k miles, if it means it will last another 100k miles.

 

I think it isn't a matter of being serviceable so much as SOA wants to inspect every failure to continue improving the CVT. Going to replacing only parts IMO would signify it has gotten as good as it will get, and it is down to simple part's failures. There is absolutely nothing stopping one of us from purchasing a used CVT and swapping it in if ours fails. But if you want Subaru to do it, then a full replacement is definitely the most prudent repair they can make while continuing to improve the reliability of the transmission and performing root cause analysis on failures that occur in the field.

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Right I understand that and agree to that point. There wont be any used Ascent CVT's for a long while and currently some people are getting failures under 10k miles, and some right after 36k (right as the warranty runs out).

 

The only way I could see myself buying one is if I bought 100k extended warranty, but that's another $2k to the price, but that also means used is out of question too.

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Right I understand that and agree to that point. There wont be any used Ascent CVT's for a long while and currently some people are getting failures under 10k miles, and some right after 36k (right as the warranty runs out).

 

The only way I could see myself buying one is if I bought 100k extended warranty, but that's another $2k to the price, but that also means used is out of question too.

 

There are some available now, gotta love IIHS testing! Also, my dealer offers a free lifetime powertrain warranty, and the full bumper to bumper extended warranty could be had for $1700ish if you buy from the right place, and not the selling dealer. Just food for thought. We were in a vehicle that was having the same issues pop up again and again fairly regularly and had a major service coming within 20k miles or so, it made sense for us financially to go with the ascent now rather than waiting.

1815497525_ascentcvt.thumb.png.d1d9645d8f2d9a52c9200bece0ae64e5.png

Edited by FLlegacy
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If we wrecked our Outback, we would probably go get an Ascent too. Since ours is still running great, it's harder to justify (plus letting Subaru work out it's bugs :-D).

 

I think our local dealer does the "lifetime warranty", at least that's what they told me but I haven't found any literature to support that, they also charge MSRP and don't seem to budge. If I buy I'll go to a bigger city, with more competition, where they are selling Subarus at Invoice price.

05 LGT 16G 14psi 290whp/30mpg (SOLD)

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00 G20t GT28r 10psi 250whp/36mpg

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Right I understand that and agree to that point. There wont be any used Ascent CVT's for a long while and currently some people are getting failures under 10k miles, and some right after 36k (right as the warranty runs out).

 

The 5 year/60k powertrain warranty should over the CVT until 60K miles, but those failures are a little concerning. I suspect if Subaru is having issues with the Ascents new CVT, they will extend the warranty like they did with the early CVT's.

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I think our local dealer does the "lifetime warranty", at least that's what they told me but I haven't found any literature to support that, they also charge MSRP and don't seem to budge. If I buy I'll go to a bigger city, with more competition, where they are selling Subarus at Invoice price.

 

The dealer that I bought my 1st Legacy does a 150k powertrain mile and free tires for life, but you have to ALL the maintenance at their dealership including the recommended extra's. You pay for it one way or another.

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The dealer that I bought my 1st Legacy does a 150k powertrain mile and free tires for life, but you have to ALL the maintenance at their dealership including the recommended extra's. You pay for it one way or another.

 

Ugh, yeah that would add up real quick. Plus with DI I would wanna use a more DI friendly oil for the engine (a lot of oil manufacturers now have DI specific oil with lower evaporation).

05 LGT 16G 14psi 290whp/30mpg (SOLD)

12 OBP Stock 130whp/27mpg@87 Oct

00 G20t GT28r 10psi 250whp/36mpg

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Local lifetime warranty is sketchy. The one in Lakewood NJ where I bought my Outback years ago had one but you had to do all the service at their shop, on time, (not a problem) and you also had to do all their "recommended" services, like where they add Techron to your gas tank for $125. So, in the long run, I said screw it and just went with my local dealer, myself, or a local shop for minor/routine maintenance.

 

Edit: Just read @dgoodhue above - seems like that's the "gotcha" there.

 

Honestly, don't lose sleep over it. I put 95k on my Outback CVT, I know some that are above 200k on the original fluid even.

 

If you were that concerned, maybe change the CVTF as part of your routine 60k interval service along with the plug jobs. Law of diminishing returns will apply, because of what gets stuck in the torque converter and valve body, you can't get 100% of the fluid out. But, if you're truly going crazy, change the fluid for the ~$300 they'll charge you for peace of mind.

 

I figure that Subaru will again do a complimentary transmission extension in a few years to bring everyone to 10 years or unlimited miles like they did for many other models. That'll give me at least 10 years of driving since I do under 10k a year.

 

Don't lose sleep over it. Not worth it.

 

Also, even 4-speed and 5-speed and even that Honda ZF 9-speed transmission fail and grenade the whole thing, too. Nothing's impervious.

 

But, from a fanboy perspective, I love the planetary CVT that is in the new Crosstrek PHEV - it's the Toyota design that's been in Priuses for a long time. It's pretty good in terms of an engineering perspective against wear-and-tear.

 

Also, while the Idemisu OEM oil that Subie uses doesn't have all values published, I think the NOACK value is probably the most important you're looking for. I'm going to just use dealer oil. If Subaru somehow sees DI blowback is a problem down the road, they seem like they're the type of company that very well might warranty the work and reimburse people for out of pocket expenses. Not a given, but if I'm using cheapo oil, they'll probably give a bit of pushback on that.

 

Also considering doing the "Subaru Carbon Clean" or "Upper Engine Cleaner" optional service every 12k miles or 12 months for prevention. Won't save me from the DI design, but hopefully will help.

Edited by Pilot1226
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Has anyone done NOACK rating on the OEM Idemisu oil?

 

It really does seem like we live in an age of over-complicated and easy to fail transmissions. Probably because everyone started showing in extra gears into what used to be 4-5 speed transmissions. Thus you are correct doesn't matter if it's a bad CVT from Subaru or bad planetary AT from someone else, your still out of $8k.

 

I too am a fan of the Toyota E-CVT, no belts to fail and real gears, but even that's rated at only 3,500lbs to capacity. Since the outgoing Highlander hybrid has the V6 engine, like the non hybrid, thus that tells me that the weak link has to be the transmission.

 

 

Back to CVT's and how they function, and fail...

I've been doing a lot of reading about CVT's and what actually causes them to fail, our very own Perscitus described the problem well over at Nasioc (quoted below). I thought CVT's couldn't tolerate any slip at all (which would score the CVT pulleys), but it seems like some slip is normal and it's the other components that are causing the catastrophic failure.

 

TL;DR: When you exceed the power rating the belt slips, heats up the fluid, which cooks the valve body and other plastic internals, only after that does the belt fail (probably due to lack of pressure from pulleys).

 

https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=45735554&postcount=170

MaddMax - its also not the chain that fails first on these - its the TC lock-up clutch, impeler and turbine components and VB internals. The chain would come next.

 

 

https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=45733385&postcount=156

Reasons for overheating or an abrupt CVTF, ATF temp rise are simple.

 

Primary - friction. Secondary - poor or no forced convection heat transfer for extended periods of time, too low or too high fluid level, spent fluid, TC malfunctions, VB solenoid malfunctions/pressure spikes, cross contamination of fluid with coolant. And on and on and on...

 

https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=45756245&postcount=178

The reason CVTF temps are critical for these cars is the CVT (and more precisely the TC and VB) are the first things to go and be affected if the avg. CVTF temp is sustained above say 190F for extended periods of time). With deterioration of the fluid, and alongside its deterioration, comes braising of the TC and VB internals, clutch-pack wear and erosion, solenoid failures (lots of plastic in the VB), etc.

 

Once the engine is capable of outputting significantly higher than JDM-spec levels of kW/Nm, the key is likely to limit the low-rpm torque (TC torque amplification) and boost in lower 'gears' (can all be done in t00ns - RPM or Load-based boost control) and the avg torque across the commonly used RPM range (say 1.5-4.5K RPM).

 

No one, including the manufacturers of the HTCVT or Subaru techs who worked on the FA20DIT+HTCVT combo since the 2012 Legacy DIT, will officially and openly admit to a power level that can be considered max or a failure threshold limit. Anyone is free to break their car though and try to generalize based on individual experience.

Edited by covertrussian

05 LGT 16G 14psi 290whp/30mpg (SOLD)

12 OBP Stock 130whp/27mpg@87 Oct

00 G20t GT28r 10psi 250whp/36mpg

22 Ascent STOCK

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Our lifetime warranty is available through any dealer, the caveat being if we use the dealer we bought it through they cover the deductible. I do think we will get the extended warranty anyway just in case anything comes up, it is nice to know the wife can schedule the service and take it in herself rather than needing me to physically do the work or take it in myself.
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@covertrussian

 

Thinking that regular fluid changes will keep the fluid free of varnishes etc. Maybe 60k? I know Subie Canada has a 60k interval to replace CVTF, not just inspect it every 30k like in the USA... Canada says it's because of a severe climate.

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So I am seeing a cvt fluid inspection at 60k miles. I assume the tech would change it if it needs it at that time, but if they don't are they still going to inspect it only every 30k miles? So maybe after towing with it on the next service it would be a good idea to have it checked regardless of mileage?
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@covertrussian

 

Thinking that regular fluid changes will keep the fluid free of varnishes etc. Maybe 60k? I know Subie Canada has a 60k interval to replace CVTF, not just inspect it every 30k like in the USA... Canada says it's because of a severe climate.

 

I helped a friend buy a brand new Outback recently, the dealer looked dumbfounded when we started asking about change intervals. Reading the web, it seems like you have to force money down dealers throat to convince them to replace the fluid.

 

I bet Subaru is doing this to reduce the 5 year price to ownership matrix that a lot of review websites use. This really sucks, because even my type of driving (easy driving but city/mountain) is considered "harsh" and calls for 25k mile change interval. Which means everyone local wont be changing their fluid ever....

05 LGT 16G 14psi 290whp/30mpg (SOLD)

12 OBP Stock 130whp/27mpg@87 Oct

00 G20t GT28r 10psi 250whp/36mpg

22 Ascent STOCK

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I had a lot of reasons for wanting to trade in my 2011 Outback with the CVT, but the transmission wasn’t one of them. I did a ton of research before leasing my Forester and I still follow the threads. I’ve been able to surmise:

 

If you drive hilly or tow, you should change the fluid around every 30k. I believe the manual specifies some weird kilometer to mile conversion like 24500. Towing fluid change requirement is right out of your owner manual in a sub note.

 

Aside from that there is no fluid interval for the US. Subie Canada does have a 60k CHANGE interval because of temperature stress in the fluid.

 

Look, I drive really urban city. Flat, but still stop and go traffic in NJ. We are talking lights every 100 yards that are staggered to prevent speeding. I think I was a good candidate for wear and tear.

 

The torque converter failed on my Outback but that was a known issue and replaced free at 85k miles and nearly 7 years of ownership.

 

There is a newsletter called TechTips by Subaru for the service techs that describes how techs have actually caused problems by examining fluid. I believe the service inspection at 30/60 just is to look at the housing and confirm no leaks. I do not believe they examine the fluid for fragments or discoloration.

 

Again if you want, change it at 60.

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Great points and I agree if you drive in these conditions 30k oil changes seem reasonable. The real issue is with buying used, since most people don't read the manual and wont realize their driving conditions are considered "harsh". Especially since Subaru doesn't try to even up sell the cvt oil change (even when it's needed).

 

Anyway, you made me start looking up other cars, looks like 8 speed 2017 Highlanders were failing pretty badly, seems more so then Ascent CVT's that we are seeing. I think they fixed it by now, but still just shows that even the bulletproof Toyota can have issues :lol:.

05 LGT 16G 14psi 290whp/30mpg (SOLD)

12 OBP Stock 130whp/27mpg@87 Oct

00 G20t GT28r 10psi 250whp/36mpg

22 Ascent STOCK

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I have driven many different 3 rows, the highlander was impressive in handling and had decent power, but for everyday driving they are very appliance like. It will get the job done but it's definitely not going to make you feel emotional about it. Same problem with the Odyssey, it rode fine and handled ok, but it was all soccer-mom mobile, smooth lazy shifting, reluctant to downshift, did not like full throttle ever, but for space and fuel economy it was awesome. Right now over 850 ish miles the Ascent is easily matching the odyssey even with increased idle times from remote starting, which is mixed city and short highway driving, the odyssey had a lifetime avg of 19.1 the ascent is floating just about 20 mpg.
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Right now over 850 ish miles the Ascent is easily matching the odyssey even with increased idle times from remote starting, which is mixed city and short highway driving, the odyssey had a lifetime avg of 19.1 the ascent is floating just about 20 mpg.

 

 

 

 

Now imagine with a tune! :hide:

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I have driven many different 3 rows, the highlander was impressive in handling and had decent power, but for everyday driving they are very appliance like. It will get the job done but it's definitely not going to make you feel emotional about it. Same problem with the Odyssey, it rode fine and handled ok, but it was all soccer-mom mobile, smooth lazy shifting, reluctant to downshift, did not like full throttle ever, but for space and fuel economy it was awesome. Right now over 850 ish miles the Ascent is easily matching the odyssey even with increased idle times from remote starting, which is mixed city and short highway driving, the odyssey had a lifetime avg of 19.1 the ascent is floating just about 20 mpg.

 

Yeah the Highlander felt very dated, overpriced (though cheaper on used market), but worst of all too small. Plus Toyota is using a plastic filter housing, that's like a cardinal sin for me (because after 100k miles, at 30F, they crumble like no other).

 

Pilot looks like a mininvan (pre 2019 models) and has a timing belt, along with few other issues like cylinder deactivation and ZF transmissions.

 

Kia is out of question, too ugly too. Nissan Pathfinder is out of question due to Jatco CVT's. Ford Explorer looks nice, but is on a very old chassis thus unsafe in comparison to modern cars, and I'm not a fan of how American cars tend to be designed internally (working on them is now similar to German cars).

 

This puts me back into the Ascent, front looks awesome, rear looks meh. Love the turbo 4 idea, but DI dirty valves is a concern, CVT is also suspect. $40k is really hard for me to scrape on single income, thus when I go to buy I want to make sure it's something that will be "good" :lol:

 

Now imagine with a tune! :hide:

 

I wouldn't bet your money on this one, I doubt off the shelf tunes will help, infact they might make it worse by reducing the typical Subaru lean outs. :lol:

 

Custom tune might help, but I'm not sure on that one either. Subaru seems to be much better at tuning cars nowdays too (FA20 WRX's getting into 30's easily, etc.).

05 LGT 16G 14psi 290whp/30mpg (SOLD)

12 OBP Stock 130whp/27mpg@87 Oct

00 G20t GT28r 10psi 250whp/36mpg

22 Ascent STOCK

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I can't seem to remember what I have posted here due to my involvement in other Subie forums, but I can put together some things I noticed I like/dislike/miss from my last year of research...

 

I think the thing that draws me to the Ascent so much is that deep black front grille. The Foz has an option for a "Sport" grille, but it's still chromed out. I think the `19 Legacy and Outback have an option for a non-chromed out grille, and I like that appearance. I'm not against the bling, but it just seems to make the black pop a little more without it.

 

The 19 Foz was a great upgrade for me. I like the BSM, but I do miss a few features, things you might want to consider if they're important to you:

 

Again, Konoji style DRL's (the C-Lights/Boomerangs) are missing in the sub-Limited trims. I didn't know this, and it's nobody's fault but my own for "rushing" since I was playing beat-the-clock.

 

I would like to have rear vent controls. From what I understand even the upper models just give me a "temperature" control but maybe not a speed control? My kids sometimes get a little woozy in the back seat on longer trips or stop-and-go traffic, so I usually will keep the A/C blasting in the back at like 62 on full speed, while my wife & I will have something different for the front. Again, this is a feature I didn't know I wanted until I didn't have it.

 

With the kids, I think leather would have been a better option for me.

 

Definitely missing a zoom-zoom engine option. I think I'm going to have to go back to an Outback for the XT.

 

I agree with you about the rear styling of the Ascent. Something about the brake/tail lights seems a little "wtf?" - but I wouldn't mind if they had the "Foz" style lobster claws make their way into the Ascent for the mid-cycle refresh.

 

I'm also a little wtf about fog lights, apparently you can get the LED foggies with the Sport trim, but can't get them even via upgrade in Touring or Limited... wtf?

 

Other things that I like or miss and didn't know I liked them:

1. Fozzy Touring side mirrors tilt down automatically in reverse. It would save me a few seconds each time since I like to back in when I park at work and home. (In case of Zombie Apocalypse, it'd be a quicker getaway)

2. Homelink built into mirror. My Foz was already equipped with the auto dimming mirror with compass, but I didn't want to spend $400 on just adding a Homelink button to it. Lesson learned for next time with factory order expected.

3. Footwell Light. Again, would be cool to add with FO for $200ish, but don't want to spend $400 for the dealer to do it with labor costs.

4. Sport Grille option mentioned above, maybe.

5. Side Mirror Turn Signals. Not sure why, just seem to like the way they look, safer if someone's in your blind spot since they see your intentions.

6. Black is good, but I think I'd want Magnetite next time. My wife's Honda Pilot is gray (Modern Steel Metallic) but it's a ligher shade. I was skeptical of two gray cars in driveway... but comparing the two it's ligher and should be okay.

 

Expecations:

 

Subaru likes to add one new feature to one or two trims, I think because they're trying to contain any bugs before they roll it out fleet wide. I appreciate their approach.

 

I like to think that the LED Foggies will be rolled out fleet wide soon. Likewise, with the non-SRH LED headlights. Not sure what they'll do reference the Konoji's since they seem to not be compatible. Subie likes to use the non SRH LED low beams as DRL's at a lower intensity it seems. But there is just something about those Konoji's that looks damn near predatory in the dark. Love it.

 

Paddle Shifters could have been handy one or two times in the snow. I had these on my Outback, was useful to use it to slow rather than brake down hills etc. *No substitute for winter tires thought. Paddles only on Touring & Sport.

 

It's funny, the range is roughly the same as my Outback was despite better MPG, since it has a smaller tank. I fill up once a week regardless of fuel, but I'm usually around 1/4 to 1/3 tank at that point.

 

The base speaker system is pretty good for the "default", but I would still have liked the Option to get the HK Audio upgrade. This would require Navi in the Touring (which I'd never, ever use) or in the Sport trim, requires RAB+PRG package.

 

Summary:

 

Everything's fun when it's new and shiny. Everything "mechanical" breaks at some point, so adding more complexity is a little unsettling since it's one more thing to break. You could argue this for a turbo too, since the NA is less "complicated" of a machine...

 

Unfortunately you can't just a la carte the options you want, and you often have to get them in a package.

 

Given everything I'm seeing now, and given that they're still working out some issues with the Ascent, minor ones albeit, I'm thinking that my #1 choice going forward will be one of the Outback XT trims. Because of how I'm feeling about the lack of leather I'm probably going to lean towards a Limited unless they're some type of show stopping feature in the Touring only, but I just don't want the bling.

 

Also have been disabling the auto start stop feature lately.

 

Hopefully will know more going forward. The Foz is a great car, but I don't see it being my "forever" car, and not just because of the minor things I omitted when I purchased it.

 

Flashing back to my original response to @covertrussian

 

I'll be happy to update you about the 16 Pilot we have. It's capable but like was mentioned above, just feels kind of dull. It's obviously a people mover. Newer ones are better designed in my opinion, minor tweaks and such.

 

Just keep in mind if you go with the Ascent, and you enjoy it, the $300-400 you spend on a DI cleaning every 5-10 years is still cheaper than the old timing belt service used to be. And the DI won't grenade your engine, it'll just reduce performance and probably throw a code.

 

And also, with the CVT, I really think Subie's going to have you covered. If you are really, really worried, consider an extended warranty. I believe you can get a 0 deductible 8y/100k mile Gold Plus for under $2k if you shop around... so that'd be around $200 per year for 10 years for the peace of mind.

 

TLDR

 

If you truly don't need the people capability, I'd consider the Outback XT. If you do need the extra space for people, I'd probably go for an Ascent Limited 8p, just because I'd want the ability to haul 8.

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Also to add a little perspective I have at least 4 shops within an hour of me who do the walnut blasting on the DI engines. Aside from the dealer, so be happy for the 2015+ wrx crowd they brought us a useful service closer to home, lol.

 

And one more point, the explorer is being updated for 2020 on a new platform based on rwd architecture, I dont know what it is based off of, but i would expect it to be better than the previous gen. Not saying I would buy one, but it may be an option to keep an eye on for you going forward.

 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

Edited by FLlegacy
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I wouldn't bet your money on this one, I doubt off the shelf tunes will help, infact they might make it worse by reducing the typical Subaru lean outs. :lol:

 

Custom tune might help, but I'm not sure on that one either. Subaru seems to be much better at tuning cars nowdays too (FA20 WRX's getting into 30's easily, etc.).

 

 

Yeah. I was referring to custom tune for sure. And I would attribute the current improvement in gas mileage to the implemented engine design, not necessarily the tune. All my assumptions though.

 

In any case, it is definitely impressive to see such good gas mileage for such a heavy full time AWD vehicle. (still full time right?)

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The OTS tune for my legacy was a pretty good kick in the pants compared to stock for sure, and really a custom tune just sort of smoothed the power delivery out. It went from a punch to a swell of power. There were significant gains especially down low, unfortunately I do believe this is where the CVT and 5eat both fell flat, reportedly from TC slippage under high torque.

 

I am slightly hopeful as I do believe XRT is looking at the possibility of tuning an ascent, we shall see. I don't really care about having it tuned for more power per se but a 93 tune would be nice.

Edited by FLlegacy
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But the average people driving the Ascent don't care about 93 octane or maximum performance. We are certainly in the minority here. I'm curious if the power is being limited intentionally as to not grenade the CVT as covertrussian alluded to... Perhaps there's longer-term goals at play here? After all, they take a lot of pride saying "98% of Outbacks are still on the road after 10 years"
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