ProFlex Commander - E85/pump gas learning

Hey all,

I Was watching some shows over the weekend and saw a really cool product (though untested on Legacy GTs at the moment). Basically it's a plug and play kit that allows you to switch from E85, to pump gas, and back again without changing a bunch of components. Below is a quick description of the system.

Advanced Fuel Dynamics makes plug and play performance flex fuel systems for MPI engines utilizing their patented flex fuel mapping computer and a fuel content sensor. The systems install in about an hour with no tuning required. If anyone has a car they could use for testing they are located in Troy, Texas about two hours south of Dallas and an hour from Austin. Hopefully we can get a Legacy GT donor down there to see if they can create something for the more refined turbo Subarus. Please email Gray at:

gray@afd-usa.com

These guys are just itching to flip the E85 ease of use on it's head and it looks like they have a good start, lets keep that rolling! If I weren't in PA i'd be down at their garage today. Check them out at https://www.advancedfueldynamics.com/

Thoughts?

Cobb and Delicious Tuning both offer a flex Fuel kit for 4th AND 5th gen LGT with MANUAL TRANS ONLY.

Myself and a few others are already using it.

Also, when products say “no tune required” it’s a red flag in the Subaru world. Everything requires a tune on these cars.

This is Gray with Advanced Fuel Dynamics. I am always hesitant to jump into a forum discussion so just know I am not here to sell anyone anything but I will be glad to answer questions.

As for "no tuning required" per the last post, our systems take information from the ECU and drive the injectors so it really does its work with no tuning. In fact, if you put a gas tune on the car the system adapts in under a second, but a tune is not necessary. We already make systems for BMW, AMG, Ford, Chevy, Mopar, Prius (don't laugh), UTVs, a few motorcycles and Jeeps. The tech is proven but we have not jumped into the Subaru world yet. Again, questions are welcome.

does the system also make adjustments to boost and timing maps?

The system controls fuel only. However, because ethanol fuel is very stable with a high octane equivalency to gas the ECU will advance timing on its own. True E85 (85% ethanol/15% gas) is equivalent to 114 octane race gas. To adjust timing the engine advances to knock and then slightly retards from the knock point. E85 never knocks at full advance so the timing automatically advances to the set limit.

The system controls fuel only. However, because ethanol fuel is very stable with a high octane equivalency to gas the ECU will advance timing on its own. True E85 (85% ethanol/15% gas) is equivalent to 114 octane race gas. To adjust timing the engine advances to knock and then slightly retards from the knock point. E85 never knocks at full advance so the timing automatically advances to the set limit.

Citation Needed

Would love to see this product work with "no tuning required" but I just don't buy it. E85 conversions for the EJ25 typically require larger injectors and fuel pump to provide enough fuel. Just increasing the injector duty cycle by some proportional amount to the ethanol content of the fuel with no other changes sounds like a recipe for disaster.

I don't mean to sound dismissive, but without demonstrating some knowledge of how the stock Subaru ECUs timing, boost, and knock control systems work, I'm afraid I can't be anything but skeptical.

This seems to be a good option for people who live in an area where E85 costs less to run.

For people wanting real performance improvement from E85, probably better off with other solutions.

I don't doubt anything you guys are saying, I know you all know your stuff, and know it well. Thos is actual what i was looking for to be honest! I love the input here and I do want to say that the conversation I had with Gray wasn't a homerun either. Not to discount his product and what he and his team has developed, he agreed without proper tests there's no way of saying this will in fact work. The idea is to get it out in front of everyone to see where it could go and even possibly get someone in his area to be the donor for testing. In a perfect world it will all check out and be one of the coolest, easiest mods. But again, without proper tests we don't really know for sure. Keep the convo going, all the input is awesome!

Thanks guys!

To adjust timing the engine advances to knock and then slightly retards from the knock point. E85 never knocks at full advance so the timing automatically advances to the set limit.

You've never tuned a turbo Subaru have you? We run at that set limit all the time on 93. If we get consistent knock enough that any timing is pulled we're in for short engine life from broken pistons.

Your signal conditioner probably works great on some platforms as a way to save money on gas, but it's not a performance adder on these cars. Best case you'd net even, but you're likely to loose power because your timing will now be so far from MBT.

There are better options out there. Cobb if you're MT, delicious tuning flex fuel if AT. The later is a total hack job (it hijacks the IAT sensor and temp correction tables to do ghetto flex fuel), but it can actually result in a net benefit still.

You've never tuned a turbo Subaru have you? We run at that set limit all the time on 93. If we get consistent knock enough that any timing is pulled we're in for short engine life from broken pistons.

 

Your signal conditioner probably works great on some platforms as a way to save money on gas, but it's not a performance adder on these cars. Best case you'd net even, but you're likely to loose power because your timing will now be so far from MBT.

 

There are better options out there. Cobb if you're MT, delicious tuning flex fuel if AT. The later is a total hack job (it hijacks the IAT sensor and temp correction tables to do ghetto flex fuel), but it can actually result in a net benefit still.

I tried to say this but more diplomatically

The concept is sound, but any difficult engineering problem is a bitch to implement. In other words, "the devil is in the details." I'd love to see this work, but if it took Cobb this long to get a flex-fuel implementation on the stock Denso ECU (with their extensive background in reverse engineering and tuning it), I just can't believe that the plug-n-play capability to run flex-fuel without a tune hasn't already been capitalized on. There's enough reading on the RomRaider forums detailing the reverse-engineering of the stock ECU and how it handles fueling, timing, map blending, etc., that should give plenty to develop a piggyback flex-fuel system on. Happy to help there, but I'd be surprised if there's anything to outdo something like MerpMod or Cobb's flex-fuel implementation.

Citation Needed

 

Would love to see this product work with "no tuning required" but I just don't buy it. E85 conversions for the EJ25 typically require larger injectors and fuel pump to provide enough fuel. Just increasing the injector duty cycle by some proportional amount to the ethanol content of the fuel with no other changes sounds like a recipe for disaster.

 

I don't mean to sound dismissive, but without demonstrating some knowledge of how the stock Subaru ECUs timing, boost, and knock control systems work, I'm afraid I can't be anything but skeptical.

The reason we bring vehicles in for testing, among other things, is to insure that the overhead is there in the fuel system for E85. If a car requires injectors or a pump upgrade we either shelve the project or make recommendations with the system for required upgrades. We never sell anything that is not thoroughly tested. So, you are right, it may not work out, but it works exactly as we claim on the fifty plus Euro and domestic cars we sell to every day. All we do is ethanol control systems. We even supply some overseas governments with flex fuel technology, so trust me when I say we know our stuff.

We won't make any promises until we see results on the dyno, but we will gladly test a GT and let everyone know what we find out. Keep in mind the start of the thread was to look for a test car in Central Texas so we can get your community answers.

Responding to a couple of points previously posted:

1. Ethanol always makes more power than gas. It has a faster expansion rate, a faster burn rate, a faster flame front and produces a cooler cylinder charge than gasoline.

2. Because E85 is equivalent to 114 Octane gasoline in terms of resistance to detonation it is a great alternative to 93 octane or race gas for preventing knock and pre-detonation, which is great for turbos.

2. Any E85 system is a power adder and will not increase fuel mileage. In fact, fuel mileage suffers a little but most like the power trade-off.

3. AFD has not tested a Subaru, so I am here to learn and to find a test car. Also, I personally run two high pressure turbo cars, a Saab and a GTI, so while I am not a Subaru guy I am pretty good on the tech with small displacement turbo engines. Ethanol loves forced induction and consistently makes about 9-10% more power at the wheels with a turbo or a supercharger and it's a whole lot cheaper than race gas.

Makes no sense to advertise this for people who want performance gains. I don't think it would be wise to spend $900 on an E85 solution with a flex fuel sensor if you have no means to change timing or boost.

Timing on e85 could be much higher than the stock map will "learn" if you have a real tuning solution. Same with boost.

You're leaving a lot of power on the table by not changing those parameters on the ecu.

Now if you do increase boost / timing via a reflash and then rely on your hardware to manage the fuel, the issue will be that when you fill up with pump gas, timing will only be decreased after knock occurred.

How does your product manage cold start on e85 in cold weather ? Does your box even reference the air temp?

What about things like tip-in enrichment, do you alter this at all? E85 requires more throttle tip-in enrichment than pump gas.

What happens when someone has other mods installed already? Such as larger injectors. How does the box know about such changes ? How hard is it for the end user to update the settings on the box?

This is important because for larger injectors you need to normally change the Injector pulse width table, and the amount you would change it is different on e85 vs pump gas.

Would be nice if you had a detailed FAQ from a technical / tuning perspective.

And I don't mean the FAQ on your website because that is misleading/marketing spin. I can go into further detail on that if you want.

2. Any E85 system is a power adder and will not increase fuel mileage. In fact, fuel mileage suffers a little but most like the power trade-off.

I don't think anyone here said that mileage would increaee. In fact mileage suffers a considerable amount (not a little as you say) as E85 is close to 30% less energy dense. Even with the most efficient tune (which your product does not even offer a tune), you're going to lose 20%+ of the distance you normally travel on a full tank.

Cost was mentioned because I was under the impression that some locations have government subsidies on e85 so you may pay a much lower price that could even offset your 30% loss of energy delivered into your tank.

Sadly where I am located, that is not the case and effectively I pay 30% more using E85 with the energy content delivered into my tank...

FYI you may want to learn about Carberry and Merp mod as mentioned earlier (both of these options can run E85 or pump gas or somewhere in between without having to constantly reflash a map, Speed density is optional and you can keep if Maf based if you choose):

http://romraider.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=36

http://romraider.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=37

https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2735348