Official Interest In COBB Flex-Fuel for the Legacy GT Platform - Please speak up

With a Federal legal variation in purity of what is called "e85" in the US from 51-83% (even though we have measured pumps at over 90% Ethanol) is it really "safe" to have just 2 maps?

 

Without flex fuel capabilities you do not know the purity of the e85 and you do not know the content of e85 in the tank. What blend were you tuned on? What blend is in the tank now? Is it your first or second tank of the fuel (in a row). There are soooo many variables saying it is "safe" is hiding from the truth.

 

Even the most OCD individual is apt to make a mistake once and hitting boost could be the end of the engine.

 

That is why flex fuel capability is the key for 99% of customers.

Having run two different maps for years, I agree it is a PITA, but it worked well for me. I tested my fuel and knew when to use E85 based on seasonality. I also watched fuel trims religiously after filling up to confirm my results. I was very in tune (no pun intended) with my car. I designed and built the car myself. The tune was done professionally because I knew my limitations. However, I still understood what the data meant.

This is just my opinion, but for those that choose to run E85, you need to be familiar with your car, mods, and local E85 distribution. Subaru never designed these cars to be "flex fuel". Can it be done? Sure! But there is risk regardless if you have a flex fuel setup or different maps. The word "safe" is very subjective. Let's be honest, the reason for converting to E85 in these cars is to get more power. With more power comes more risk of something breaking. Anyone that feels the need to modify their car to the point of running E85 needs to accept that risk. If they don't, they bought the wrong car and should have bought a factory built higher horsepower car with a warranty.

 

"If you make something idiot proof, the world comes up with better idiots..."

-Socrates-

Having run two different maps for years, I agree it is a PITA, but it worked well for me. I tested my fuel and knew when to use E85 based on seasonality. I also watched fuel trims religiously after filling up to confirm my results. I was very in tune (no pun intended) with my car. I designed and built the car myself. The tune was done professionally because I knew my limitations. However, I still understood what the data meant.

This is just my opinion, but for those that choose to run E85, you need to be familiar with your car, mods, and local E85 distribution. Subaru never designed these cars to be "flex fuel". Can it be done? Sure! But there is risk regardless if you have a flex fuel setup or different maps. The word "safe" is very subjective. Let's be honest, the reason for converting to E85 in these cars is to get more power. With more power comes more risk of something breaking. Anyone that feels the need to modify their car to the point of running E85 needs to accept that risk. If they don't, they bought the wrong car and should have bought a factory built higher horsepower car with a warranty.

 

"If you make something idiot proof, the world comes up with better idiots..."

-Socrates-

 

I have run multiple maps in the past and I had to keep a log book of what I was doing. But I had at least 8 maps. Not 2. Even then, I knew I was risking it not measuring the ethanol content of each fill up.

 

I had one map for the first tank of 91, one map for the second tank of 91, one map for the first tank of e85 and one map for the second tank of e85. Then there were daily driver and aggressive versions of each. LOL.

I suppose it all depends on where your at and how aggressive the tune is. We have done it for years without issue for 95% of customers so its a shame we have no new news on the cobb kit but not the end of the world for those wanting to utilize E85 at the pump.

 

Dave

A certain big name aftermarket company told me that's it's only a matter of time before Cobb makes a flex fuel kit for every drive by wire Subaru.

 

 

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So i guess, here's what I don't understand, I have an 07 spec b, built it, ran multiple levels of power on multiple setups/ both 93 and e85, etc. I have to come to find that other then single avcs its exactly like a GR sti, so what exactly is the hold up? from what i have been reading multiple people have been able to build a cobb equal flex fuel kit for 100$ couple threads on nasioc about that. All the kit does is use a PWM and voltage regulator to transform Hz of the sensor to 0-5v and sends it to the tgv sensor input...... It seems to me if the car uses the same ap, same coding, same fuel setup including lines and fpr placement it should just work. Those threads also have coding in them for using flex fuel on the tgv sensor and a display for the ap. So if anyone can help explain whatever I'm missing or not understanding?

So i guess, here's what I don't understand, I have an 07 spec b, built it, ran multiple levels of power on multiple setups/ both 93 and e85, etc. I have to come to find that other then single avcs its exactly like a GR sti, so what exactly is the hold up?

 

I would imagine there ARE some differences:

1) different engine, therefore different computer, needs to be tested/validated. Presumably some differences in sensor layout.

2) Aren't there also differences in turbo location/intake manifold? Maybe this causes wiring/attachment issues?

3) different FPR, different OEM injectors, different fuel pump...

4) Legacy/OBXT has 5 speed, 6 speed AND 5EAT. If they came out with a kit ONLY for the '07-09 Spec Bs, they'd sell like 3 or 4 (ok, maybe 20 or 30 at best). No sense developing for that market. So now they need to make sure the 5 speed and the 5EAT also work. Which is a completely different set of ROMs, tuning, etc. I believe the earlier '05-06 computers are totally different from '07-09. Later models have the "mode" button, etc. But, I believe there were more '05-06 models sold than '07-09. So now they have to find a way to make it work on two totally different types of car buses (CANBus vs. whatever the other one is), since it requires additional wiring. What if the '05s don't have enough space left in the ROM, or the wiring is a hassle?

5) Legacy is OLD at this point - maybe LGT owners don't keep/fix their cars as much as STI owners - how many 4th gen LGTs are still on the road? I know I'm happy my '05 with 130k miles is still running, but if I blew an engine, I'd probably move on to something else..

 

Not saying all of these are true, but I CAN understand why they aren't rushing this to market..

 

 

I'm not saying it's like going from an STI to an Evo type of complexity or anything, but it's not exactly "99.9% the exact same car" either.

1) same engine as 06-14 wrx

2) there are guys building their own kits for 100$, as long as the right signal gets to the tgv it doesnt matter AP will read it. also considering they already have flex fuel for both manifolds and turbo styles

3) you have to change all that to even run flex fuel, so what does that even matter.... well you dont have to change the FPR but the FPR setup is exactly like a gr.

4,5) I'm not trying to justify Cobb releasing flex fuel as a whole for the legacy platform even though that would be awesome. Not even about releasing just for the spec b, but the fact we use the same ap as the GR plafrom, means they obviously have the coding for the ecu. I know they cant use the we dont have a legacy in house excuse because literally everyone in this thread would by flatout to Tx if that was the only issue.... well I know I would.

Edited August 9, 2017 by Yougotboostpower

ECM between 05-06 and 07-09 are different. 5EAT trans between the two are different too. As well as the TCU coding. Cobbs biggest issue is the difference in ECM's. Not enough memory/room to hold the flex fuel tables in the older ECM.

 

Obviously not enough sales interest to justify racing to market.

 

Those who think the LGT is that popular in the Subie world (still) are highly mistaken. The cars are not being kept on the road and modified like the WRX/STi is. Money talks.

I spoke to Cobb at Big Northwest yesterday and asked about Flex Fuel support for the Legacy and the guy I spoke to recommended sending a request to their support email (support@cobbtuning.com). Us talking about it here is great but it is Cobb that needs to hear our requests for anything to happen.

Sent an email off, in case it helps.

Not the reply I was hoping for....

 

While anything is possible in the future we do not currently have plans to offer Flex Fuel support for the Legacy/Outback.

Here's what I got:

While it is something we intend to look in to, I don't have any expected time frame or official yes or no right now.

I’ll just make it a weekly email.

 

Part of the issue with a list like we have created here is that it doesn’t account for people giving up on waiting and selling their cars.

The initial list was also created in 2015, so it's been almost two years. The longer Cobb waits, the smaller the market will be.

 

I honestly can't see them supporting it. There will always be newer cars / bigger markets to chase after than the 05-06 and 07-09 LGTs.

Edited August 21, 2017 by Rhitter

Yea. Emailing Cobb every week won't make this happen, it'll just waste your time and theirs (or you will make it into their Spam list)

I am beginning to lose hope as well.

 

Maybe it is worth looking into an ecu swap.

Couldn't you just run stand-alone? i.e what Mighty Car mods did with their Haltech to run Flex fuel?

I haven't researched much of anything.

 

I was under the impression Cobb would at least give us a more solid indication of our chances once the GD chassis was released.

Yea. Emailing Cobb every week won't make this happen, it'll just waste your time and theirs (or you will make it into their Spam list)

 

I was exaggerating when I said “weekly”, but I think not sending them another email would be just as stupid. Of course, it’s better if it isn’t just me sending them an email since I can only buy one kit.

If Cobb isn't gonna release flexfuel for the LGT, I'm honesty gonna ditch my Accessport and get Haltech. I've been holding off on an E85 tune for 3 years waiting for this kit to drop.

I'm going to make my own via the nasioc thread this october.

I'm going to make my own via the nasioc thread this october.

 

how are you going to do the flex fuel tuning setup?

Cobb responded to my email saying some custom feature stuff including FF will be happening, they just don't have a timeframe at this moment.

 

 

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Much better response and thanks for reaching out to them, the more of us that do the more likely this is to happen (in a reasonable amount of time).