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Resleeving closed deck block


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I didn't see the answer here, and I read on nasioc that it can't be done.

 

But I am going to asking the question here just to be sure.

 

If I buy a closed deck block that has been bored to 100.25mm can I have darton sleeves installed in that block by an reputable engine builder or am I better off just sleeving a stock block?

 

Why am I asking for those that care. You should know that I'm not shooting for any big numbers but I have been chasing misfires, and big fuel leaks for months only to come to the conclusion that my HG is going. The spitting coolant from the overflow was the give away that popped up in the last couple of weeks.

 

Changed

Spark plugs,

Moved coils

Replaced rad cap

Car only slightly over heated last week for the first time and was shutdown imidiately.

 

So if a closed deck can't be resleeved. A friend has a spare block and I could resleeve that or I would need to source a closed deck as the next option.

 

I don't want to pull 322k motor out just to slap new HG and arp head studs in although that would be the cheaper option.

 

What are your thoughts on this guys?

#LGTSTi is still cheaper and nicer then an equal year wrxsti

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Have you asked the experts ? https://dartonsleeves.com/

 

Call them, you'll have the answer quickly.

 

I didn't see Subaru sleeves in a quick look on the website.

305,600miles 5/2012 ej257 short block, 8/2011 installed VF52 turbo, @20.8psi, 280whp, 300ftlbs. (SOLD).  CHECK your oil, these cars use it.

 

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Have you talked with a machine shop to see if they can check the decks on your stuff and make sure there are no cracks in the heads ?

 

If the body is in good shape...why don't you do it right the first time ? I think you've been here enough to know to follow my build.

 

You need to decide to keep it for a long time or cut your losses.

 

Just checked you build thread in the link from your post.

 

IMO you have all the right pieces, a ej257, have your heads rebuilt and tested, while the intake manifold is off all in one piece like I did, check it out on a bench.

 

ARP head studs and a Tune from tuningalliance@gmail.com you should be fine for years.

Edited by Max Capacity

305,600miles 5/2012 ej257 short block, 8/2011 installed VF52 turbo, @20.8psi, 280whp, 300ftlbs. (SOLD).  CHECK your oil, these cars use it.

 

Engine Build - Click Here

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Have you asked the experts ? https://dartonsleeves.com/

 

Call them, you'll have the answer quickly.

 

I didn't see Subaru sleeves in a quick look on the website.

 

Yes the plan would be to put Darton sleeves into a closed deck block not stock sleeves, lol.

#LGTSTi is still cheaper and nicer then an equal year wrxsti

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Have you talked with a machine shop to see if they can check the decks on your stuff and make sure there are no cracks in the heads ?

 

If the body is in good shape...why don't you do it right the first time ? I think you've been here enough to know to follow my build.

 

You need to decide to keep it for a long time or cut your losses.

 

Just checked you build thread in the link from your post.

 

IMO you have all the right pieces, a ej257, have your heads rebuilt and tested, while the intake manifold is off all in one piece like I did, check it out on a bench.

 

ARP head studs and a Tune from tuningalliance@gmail.com you should be fine for years.

 

 

I guess I should give you a little more background. I agree with you and have read your build thread so no surprise I am a firm believer in doing it right the first time. Which is why I am questioning re-sleeving an already closed block.

 

Basically I found a closed deck block I would like to buy, but will only pull the trigger on it if I can confirm that it can be re-sleeved with New Darton sleeves. Second option would be to use the Darton sleeves on one of the blocks below.

 

A friend has a spare motor with good heads/block I can use as a core. I also have the motor in my car which is running abet with issues, and there is another long block close by worst case for about $500 but with 250km. so between them I'm sure I have one usable block/heads to rebuild with.

 

Worst case scenario is I order a new closed deck block from IAG or Outfront. But With the cost associated with buying a block from either of them as well as the US to CND dollar conversion, shipping, duties and delay in when I would get it kind of have me looking at other options. I can have a sleeved built short block built locally in a shorter period of time for less, but I'm not after the quickest option, just the best one.

 

Car will be keep for a long time which is why I am looking at all options. Easiest option would be to get the HG replaced along with having the heads checked while out and throwing in ARP headstuds in. But with 322k on the original motor, it may be time for rings & or bearings and at that point I feel like since the motor is going to be out lets do it right now for when I want more power. Car is only driven once or twice on the weekend.

 

End goal is to have the following

- Built Block (sleeved or closed deck)

arp head studs

forged pistons & rods

stock HG

stock heads (just resurfaced/cleaned/R&R)

new pcv, hoses, idlers, timing belt & guides, ocv

new Killer B pickup & baffle

 

Will re-use my existing turbo, fuelling IM & accessories and will be tuning with Dave again when I get everything sorted out and installed.

#LGTSTi is still cheaper and nicer then an equal year wrxsti

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a closed deck block is better than a stock block resleeved, however buying a closed deck then resleeving defeats the closed deck. If staying mostly stock, the closed deck or resleeving seems like overkill. Boring out to 100.25 seems the same too.

 

Is the goal to get the same mileage again or up the power?

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a closed deck block is better than a stock block resleeved, however buying a closed deck then resleeving defeats the closed deck. If staying mostly stock, the closed deck or resleeving seems like overkill. Boring out to 100.25 seems the same too.

 

Is the goal to get the same mileage again or up the power?

 

So I have heard mixed reviews about both which is kind of why I was thinking to re-sleeve a closed deck. Definitely overkill initially. But either of these choices will support my future power goals

 

That being said the car isn't stock. Upgraded fueling(injectors, parallel lines, pump, FPR) TGV delete, EGT, EBCS, upgraded turbo, TMIC, catback, dp, intake, etune and a few other mods. Was always planning for more power but its only really been above stock power when I started upgrading it over the last 10-15k. I've owned it for just over 2 years now and only put a total of 28k since buying it. I believe it was relatively stock until 294k when I bought it.

 

So the plan in my head atm is to over build the block for somewhere in the 500-600whp. Now I know I can't make that with the current parts, but I would like to see how far I can push this VF52, before starting the upgrade process again.

Edited by tysparks81

#LGTSTi is still cheaper and nicer then an equal year wrxsti

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it's your money, but sleeves and closed decking aren't necessary for 600hp. Outfront Motorsports (in California) 's v4 closed deck block is rated for unknown power. The v3 was conservatively rated at 750hp. Neither are sleeved. If you were going to sleeve it, you would do it as part of the conversion to closed deck. Perhaps the "willall" billet block would be a good solution?

 

Upgrading to 14mm head studs is better spend along with arp head studs. If you use o-rings or the latest in head gaskets (flame rings, something like that); you'll keep the head to block seal intact.

 

Look through the threads from Grimlin or jmorris or strizzy who all have experience with extremely high horsepower engines. There's a few other high hp builds that have been successful, realizing all have been high dollar builds fraught with failures. Not to dissuade you, just a warning that your admirable goal is likely to be the first of several builds not a one&done.

 

Am looking forward to results

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You are absolutely correct. I would like to build it that way for piece of mind and for future power or basically get to whatever power keeps me happy enough to not want to sell it when something breaks, lol.

 

With that being said the "Waillall" billet block is the idea behind this question. But I don't want to drop 15k on an idea for a car I only drive on the weekend though. Even though when this is all said there is a good chance I will probably be around that number for parts and labor.

 

I have read a lot of the high HP builds, I will read those ones as well. I'm basically looking for the best possible base, that will allow me to max out what I currently have but still leaving me room to grow and map out my next course of upgrades. But there needs to be a flow or direction. That being said I know I can have reliability and power but it will cost a pretty penny to get there.

 

14mmm Head studs are on the menu, not sure if the firelock or whatever is proprietary to iag blocks but I will look into if it is available and if my engine builder is familiar enough with them. I won't be assembling the first short block I am going to pay someone more experienced than me to do that but I will be dropping it in and getting it running, which hopefully saves me some of the headaches and trouble others have gone through.

 

I'm excited regardless, and can't wait to share it with you guys.

#LGTSTi is still cheaper and nicer then an equal year wrxsti

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A builder I visited while looking for a race engine several years ago said they get 600hp on stock blocks. When I asked how often they hit full boost, he said at least once a day. When I asked how well it would fair on 3 times a minute for 2 hours, he said not good.

 

I ended up building, with another builder, for 8000 rpm and running at 7000 rpm. Boost was turned down as well as hp.

 

If you want a 600hp engine, build for that. If you want a dyno queen, build for that. If you want a weekend warrior to flog on local roads, build for that. If you are unsure of your intended usage, your build will be extremely costly and happen several times. Having a fun 600hp legacy is an oxymoron unless fun equates to "I work on my car all the time". The story of the race wagon under Sgt.Gator is a great diary of a weekend warrior at half the horsepower.

 

Make a list of 3-5 goals for your build. Every decision should be based on those rules. Cost no object. Cheaping out on parts or labor early reaps rebuilds later on. If you change your goals halfway through the build, realize that your project spend starts over.

 

"When something breaks" is going to be "i broke something today" after every weekend. 600hp is 240hp/liter. Each liter is putting out as much as the oem engine did at the crank.

 

Look at Bensons Machine - https://www.bensonsmachine.com/ . They invented aftermarket sleeving. At the time, I found them , it was $2000 for a full service sleeving with Darton sleeves & closed decking. idk about today.

 

Grimlin's shop is http://www.awdtuning.com/ . Her car was over 900hp at last build and first lgt into 8's, maybe. They remanufacture iag blocks to their upgraded specs. They quoted me ~15k for a 300hp race engine build long block. IAG stage 4 closed deck as starting point.

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A builder I visited while looking for a race engine several years ago said they get 600hp on stock blocks. When I asked how often they hit full boost, he said at least once a day. When I asked how well it would fair on 3 times a minute for 2 hours, he said not good.

 

I ended up building, with another builder, for 8000 rpm and running at 7000 rpm. Boost was turned down as well as hp.

 

If you want a 600hp engine, build for that. If you want a dyno queen, build for that. If you want a weekend warrior to flog on local roads, build for that. If you are unsure of your intended usage, your build will be extremely costly and happen several times. Having a fun 600hp legacy is an oxymoron unless fun equates to "I work on my car all the time". The story of the race wagon under Sgt.Gator is a great diary of a weekend warrior at half the horsepower.

 

Make a list of 3-5 goals for your build. Every decision should be based on those rules. Cost no object. Cheaping out on parts or labor early reaps rebuilds later on. If you change your goals halfway through the build, realize that your project spend starts over.

 

"When something breaks" is going to be "i broke something today" after every weekend. 600hp is 240hp/liter. Each liter is putting out as much as the oem engine did at the crank.

 

Look at Bensons Machine - https://www.bensonsmachine.com/ . They invented aftermarket sleeving. At the time, I found them , it was $2000 for a full service sleeving with Darton sleeves & closed decking. idk about today.

 

Grimlin's shop is http://www.awdtuning.com/ . Her car was over 900hp at last build and first lgt into 8's, maybe. They remanufacture iag blocks to their upgraded specs. They quoted me ~15k for a 300hp race engine build long block. IAG stage 4 closed deck as starting point.

 

 

I get exactly what you are saying. As of Right now I am building the car so I can track it next year and be around 350-400whp. But a year from there I will be planning to get around 500-600whp. The biggest change in those numbers will be the turbo/fueling and tuning, also if the car will be winter driven at all. The block should be fine for either setup based on my plan of attack

 

I've seen Mary's car and I have been following her build. I looked at the prices and blocks from stage 3-5 are between 5-9kUS from AWDTuning. I emailed Benson Machine and got a quote between 4-5kUS which is not bad tbh.

 

I have also been speaking with a local engine builder that can have a darton sleeved built block in my car for 8k cnd which they say is rated for 750whp which is what I would have paid for an iag stage 2.5 closed deck block without install. But that same shop is also offering to build something close to an iag stage 2 shortblock for around 4k cnd rated for 500whp which is is very appealing considering what I would pay shopping south of my boarder. Will also allow me to get this in the car as soon as early Jan. and save me a whole lot of downtime.

 

As of this post wife is on board and approves of the local option but need to do a little more research before I pull the trigger. As my preference right now is still a sleeved option that leaves me room to grow in a year or two when I want more power. Because we all know how addictive boost is.

 

Thanks for all the info and help talking through this.

#LGTSTi is still cheaper and nicer then an equal year wrxsti

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They both have down sides which is why I was thinking of sleeving a closed deck originally. But at plus 10-15k us it's way more than I should be spending at the moment, on a motor build I wasn't planning on pulling the trigger on for another 1yr

 

Now until you get into billet blocks all of the closed deck have two fatal flaws. First they use the stock sleeves, and second if you have a catastrophic failure you will need to replace the whole block. Whereas with sleeves your biggest issue is having a sleeve drop due to being incorrectly installed. And if you do have some kind of failure you can have 1 sleeve replaced in the worst case scenario. Which is one of the reasons it's still an option I'm considering.

 

But sleeves and forged pistons don't play nice with cold weather and it's cold 6 months out of the year up here in Canada.

 

I am a firm believer that a car is meant to be driven, and I would be really mad if I wasnt able to drive this car in the snow over the winter. But I would also be heart broken if my car was written off because one of the many idiots up here that don't know how to drive when it snow caused me to get in an accident. After all the work into it.

Edited by tysparks81

#LGTSTi is still cheaper and nicer then an equal year wrxsti

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"dropping a sleeve"? That's not a thing anymore.

A catastrophic failure of a closed deck block would be the same as any other block. Looking at typical failures on the forum it's ringland, broken rods, turbo failure. If the sleeve gets damaged, replace the sleeve. Then again, how many actual sleeve fails do you know of?

 

if you are worried about someone hitting your car, get a winter car. lgt's are dirt cheap. A weekend toy is usually for nice weather. 600hp in the winter would really suck cause snow tires aren't really high performance.

 

Hence why I suggested a goals list. 6 months of winter might be hard to overcome?

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Now until you get into billet blocks all of the closed deck have two fatal flaws. First they use the stock sleeves, and second if you have a catastrophic failure you will need to replace the whole block. Whereas with sleeves your biggest issue is having a sleeve drop due to being incorrectly installed. And if you do have some kind of failure you can have 1 sleeve replaced in the worst case scenario. Which is one of the reasons it's still an option I'm considering.

 

 

 

Former manufacturing engineer from IAG here...

 

you're plenty fine with stock sleeves up over 1000whp, the sleeves aren't the thing that fails. If you have a cast iron sleeve fail, trust me, you aren't just replacing one sleeve, you're throwing out the whole thing and starting over again. The cost of a comparable closed deck to a sleeved block is what you need to look at, they both need to be treated as a consumable, because they are... If the used close deck block you're looking at is an IAG block, then if would not be successful to install sleeves into it at that point.

 

The cost of the sleeves themselves, plus the price of the machine shop to do it correctly, plus the long lead time typical of the places that can do it correctly are things to consider.

 

If you have any questions, i'll try to keep an eye on here more often!

good luck with you're build

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Thank you Bettner12 great info.

 

We are talking worst case for either choice, but they are both pretty big what ifs in either scenario, going to go with what makes the most sense in the end. I almost pulled the trigger on an IAG stage 2 block this week as it seems to be a good place to start.

 

I do have access to another car for when my legacy is down. But I have been driving the legacy only on weekends for the last couple of months. Not driving it winter would only really mean I don't need to swap out my coilovers for a set of Bilsteins. But I will probably pick up a winter beater for next year.

#LGTSTi is still cheaper and nicer then an equal year wrxsti

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