Options for Engine with Burnt Valve and Failing Piston Ring

This is the car my post is about. There are a handful of mods of which I've not changed nothing.

 

Summary vehicle: 2005 Legacy GT LTD Stg 2 + extras. (I even have the v1 AccessPort that I hear is super out of date)

 

We've put an additional ~30k miles on it, but it's been my wife's dd since.

 

It always ran a tiny bit rough at idle, but recently it was worse than normal and we got ECL for a miss on 2. Long story short a leak down test revealed that we have a burnt valve and failing piston rings.

 

they quoted me $13K on an new engine installed. I don't want to put that much money into a car with 195k miles on the rest of the machine.

 

I have a few questions. Would it be better and most economic to:

 

I'm in the Pacific NW (north of Seattle). I don't have a garage or tools for any work related to removing or reinstalling the engine, nor do I know anyone with such items/locations so any of this work would be done by a Subaru shop I planned on calling and repeating the above question to them (Northwest Rally Sport).

 

Have the motor rebuilt (is this even possible at this stage?)

Swap the motor out for a JDM one.

Swap the motor out of a US one.

Sell as is and put money to a new-to-us car.

 

 

Thanks for any and all advice!

 

P.S. The original owner had a clutchmaster clutch in it (see linked FS post). The release point was always low, but everyone that drives it (save for one tech) has complained recently and encouraged me to replace it. Is a low release a clutchmaster thing, or a performance clutch thing, or is is likely it really does need replacing? I don't know who to trust when it comes to cars. I'm more of a computer guy. :-\

Edited November 7, 2019 by Aeolus
added info and typo

It is not cost effective to pay someone (Labor) to repair a 2005 Legacy GT sedan with nearly 200k miles on it. Sell it as is the logical financial choice.

 

If you repair it would because your attached to car, it is in great shape and don't spending more money repairing than its worth.

X2 ^

 

Time to move on.

 

You can read my click here link in my sig, to see what's involved in doing this job. I have all the tools.

So as the consensus of 2 comments here (I'm sure more will say the same) is that selling the car is the best option, what seems like a fair price for the car as-is? What dollar limit makes it not worth it? Like I said in OP, they quoted me $13k for a new engine ($9k) and a little over 2k to install it.

 

Is a used engine price + install really more cost effective than getting $2k for the car and using that towards a new vehicle?

 

You can read my click here link in my sig, to see what's involved in doing this job. I have all the tools.

 

I've skimmed a lot of your posts on the subject in other threads and this one. They've been informative. Forgive my ignorance, but is the point in directing me there (since I said I don't have the tools or space to do any work) to show me the volume of work involved, and hint at the labor expense?

Edited November 7, 2019 by Aeolus

Find a better mechanic is one option!

 

Its 2 grand for a new shortblock, another 600 to rebuild heads, probably another 1000 (gross overestimate) to mount the rebuilt heads to the block, should include oil pump, and timing belt installation as well. The shop could charge you up to 2-3k in labor for pulling and reinstalling the engine. They are quoting like twice what it takes for a shop to do, Ive never heard of a shop charging 13k to change a motor...I'd run far away from these people.... You can get a complete used motor for like 4-5k... who the hell charges 8k to install a motor in a subaru??? That quote is the most obnoxious shit I've ever heard!

Edited November 8, 2019 by Tehnation

13k to install a new motor???? Wtf??? You can buy a used gt in great shape for under 10k.... you can buy one for 5k and swap the motor.... NONE of the math makes sense to quote 13k!! Thats your first problem, looks like you got a bad quote.... i won't talk shit about that shop, but that just seems dishonest... point blank.... that mechanic is trying to avoid working on the car or bang you over the head! Edited November 8, 2019 by Tehnation

If the people who quoted you did the leakdown test, I would question that as well! 13k... really? What do they charge per hour, $300? In NY I'm used to 100-125 an hour, so like 1k a day for 8 hrs of labor, more like 6 hrs with breaks etc. So a day to pull the motor, then shove the car somewhere in their lot, take the engine bring to a machine shop where they charge lets say 3500 to get you back a new block, then that goes back to the garage and it takes another day or 2 to get it back in. 7k job imo, if not less if you orchestrated things. If anything you would need new hoses, gasket kit, oil pump, timing belt kit, oil cooler and whatever misc., thats about it, thats about 1-1.5k if you HAD to go that far. Your only issues are the shortblock and cylinder head or heads. I just can't understand what 13k.....

I just skimmed tehnations post lol but for reference for him I was quoted 11k in Topeka Kansas from the Subaru dealership and uhhh I think 8k+ for an lkq long block. The plus was because they couldn't be sure what it came with (because they didn't call. I used to work with lkq. But that's OK.)

 

So I paid 2k for short block, gaskets, oil pump. 1.5k for heads rebuilt, new exhaust valves and guides, install and assembly of block with oil pump pan and timing belt. I think book time is somewhere around 20-25 hours so we'll say 2k in labor. Plus 20% mark up to send it to the machine shop. So like 6k assuming there is nothing wrong with the turbo, no metal in the oil, all that.

 

I haven't totaled up my rebuild yet but I've run out of money. So somewhere around 11k.

 

To answer op though, you can't vouch the condition of a used longblock. They are 4-5k and they aren't super easy to find. So you're still at 7-8k or more since you don't have the means to do it yourself. And it might blow again in two years. So no it's not worth it in most people's opinion to do a used longblock.

 

Idk what blown engine lgt are worth. Do you know the condition of the turbo? I think color and condition of exterior and interior matter a bunch as well.

 

 

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And per the original post, most people have found for a stock rebuild, the cost of rebuilding the short block is as much or more than a new short block. That's what maxcapacity found as did I. Some have other experiences based on area, but unless you're doing it yourself it's not much an option and still probably not a great one.

 

 

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you can get a new longblock for like 5k, swap everything over and move on. gasket kit for 250, swap everything and call it a day. No way does an oem long block cost more than 5k.

 

I duno maybe I just live in subaru land....

They don't carry oe long blocks in utah. New at least. And used get snatched up. But even then they said they don't have the capacity to do the work themselves. Which means about 2k in labor.

 

I saw a handful of long blocks here and there but the cost difference wasn't worth it to me since I plan to keep the car for a long time. I mean if you think about it, and I just added it up, new block, head rebuild, all oil components new oe (I did some upgraded stuff), new plugs is only 4500. We can throw in another 500 in small parts, hoses, extra gaskets and what have you.

 

Seems like unless a long block is 4k or less and it's been compression tested and leakdown tested. I don't think I'd want it.

 

But still as you mentioned, you can go get another lgt for like 7k. Hell you can go get a non turbo outback and not worry about the engine blowing. Only reason to do any of this is because you have the means and the emotional attachment. I personally had to have a sporty awd manual wagon

 

 

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https://www.jegs.com/p/ATK-Engines/ATK-Remanufactured-Crate-Engines-for-Subaru/5432244/10002/-1

 

https://www.jegs.com/i/ATK-Engines/059/712E/10002/-1

 

Jegs got em for 4,500

 

oil pump, new cam sprockets, timing belt kit.... its ready to rock and roll, just toss on the intake, plus 3 year warranty

Edited November 8, 2019 by Tehnation

I'll have to agree with most, go find a local repair shop with Subaru's around it, they can do the fix for the $5-6000 area if not less.

The problem is the book value on a 200k miles 2005 LGT sedan is $5k. The 2005 sedans don't sell for the same premium as wagons do...

The problem is the book value on a 200k miles 2005 LGT sedan is $5k. The 2005 sedans don't sell for the same premium as wagons do...

 

 

 

Oh yea. We are all positive that there is no reason to do this from a financial stand point. The lgt is a niche within a niche. You have to want a subaru but not a wrx or sti lol. The wagons only sell for what they do cuz they were only made for one year. But even then it's only to crazy people.

 

You could make the argument that putting 7k into this is still gonna be better than trying to go buy the new lgt, which is like 37k. But cars are an expense and this is basically a sports car. If you want a reliable daily driver, go get a non turbo subaru, a civic, v6 acccord, camry, or some other inexpensive small engine compact vehicle.

 

For me, I'll be 25k into what will be a 40k equivalent. I mean I won't get that 25k back but it's a car, that's not the point. I had the means at the time.

 

Also I think most of us talking about it do our own work and really like the odd niche of the lgt.

 

 

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https://www.jegs.com/p/ATK-Engines/ATK-Remanufactured-Crate-Engines-for-Subaru/5432244/10002/-1

 

https://www.jegs.com/i/ATK-Engines/059/712E/10002/-1

 

Jegs got em for 4,500

 

oil pump, new cam sprockets, timing belt kit.... its ready to rock and roll, just toss on the intake, plus 3 year warranty

 

 

 

Hmm maybe I should have done that. I guess I was just hoping my heads were OK based on my misunderstanding of po work done. Head rebuild and parts was something like 1k.

 

 

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The problem is the book value on a 200k miles 2005 LGT sedan is $5k. The 2005 sedans don't sell for the same premium as wagons do...

 

 

 

Don't misunderstand, I don't think anyone is suggesting you repair it. You'd already know if you wanted to repair it. But it's pretty high mileage and in the PNW so I assume the body isn't in great shape. So hows your leather? Is it a black interior?

 

I'd just guess 2k but maybe more?

 

 

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^^^^ This.

13k to install a new motor???? Wtf???

$9566.60 for a new motor and turbo, and $2749.68 in labor. The full quote of 12k was with +600 in spark plug work I threw down the drain.

 

 

Don't misunderstand, I don't think anyone is suggesting you repair it. You'd already know if you wanted to repair it. But it's pretty high mileage and in the PNW so I assume the body isn't in great shape. So hows your leather? Is it a black interior?

 

I'm assuming this was aimed at me. I do want to repair it. I don't have the money for anything comparable, and I'm not interested in the car payment that would be necessary for something much newer. I had never had a turbocharged car before and since getting the 05 whenever I drive/drove the 2001 LGT it felt sad.

 

I'm unclear what the consensus is. Even MaxCapacity initially advised me to move on and then

 

'll have to agree with most, go find a local repair shop with Subaru's around it, they can do the fix for the $5-6000 area if not less.

 

The shop I had gone to directed me to this other one (Northwest Rally Sports) near where I live and said they do remans and rebuilds. I've not talked to them yet. My plan was to see what this resource thought, and then to talk to the new shop.

 

What should I be asking/looking for? I don't know my shortblock from my longblock from my head.

 

Regarding the condition of the car otherwise (clutch wear/release point notwithstanding) the aesthetics aren't terrible. It has some dings, and the carpet is stained in some areas, but it isn't in "bad" shape at all considering its age. It is red exterior with taupe interior. The leather is wrinkled but not cracked. The lower bit on the parkingbreak fell off. It's not bad but it's not pristine.

 

if you look at my OP there is a link to the FS post from around when I bought it. Here it is again. https://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/seattle-wa-2005-subaru-legacy-gt-lt-stg-2-165k-229192.html

Ah OK this makes more sense. I think there was a thought of you asking what the best option is financially. Which is ditch the vehicle. However I think most people here really like our vehicles and I know I myself and bored and waiting on parts.

 

Here's some of the issues with the shop thing. Do you need a new turbo? That's $1200 oe. You could replace or rebuild it for much less. My turbo was fine. Most shops are going to assume you've blown the turbo, shot metal into the engine and that's what's causing your rod knock. My diagnosis from the dealer was "We started the car and it has rod knock. New engine and turbo will be needed." Did you see if there was metal in the oil? What color was it? "No." At that point I towed it home.

 

BUT most major shops aren't going to risk it. They'll quote you a new turbo cuz it might be blown. They won't pull the banjo bolt filters cuz that's not subaru approved. They'll rebuild the heads cuz it's not worth the risk. The dealer my car was at wasn't quoting to replace the oil cooler but there was metal in my oil. Big no no. So they are going to do things but necessary to cover their ass but not things needed to save the car. This is why many of us do it ourselves.

 

You have to remember, you're looking at 5k. I was lucky in a way. I had 14k for an 8.5k car. The extra was to "fix things" I decided to pull a 10k loan instead and then when the car blew up I was like well this is definitely the car I want so let's repair it. I have the money.

 

But if you don't have 5k (the basically absolute minimum for this repair) then it's not worth it. Don't put yourself in a financial bind over a car. It's not a good thing to do.

 

 

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I am in the middle of pricing a short block replacement out at the moment. My road map is the MaxCapacity approach, which is a new crate Short Block combined with refresh heads. This is different than a complete long block. The definition of "new motor" needs to be clarified more to compare prices.

 

The very back of the envelope calculations for a shop to do it are in the $5.5-$7k range. Here are where this ball park price range is coming from:

 

$1829 shipped EJ257 Short Block Part number 10103AC880

$500-1000 Heads Refresh

$1500 labor (remove engine, disassemble engine, transfer new components, install engine)

Other parts: Timing belt kit, Oil pump, thermostat, ARP head studs, hoses, Gasket kit, misc hosing, fluids

Edited November 8, 2019 by ashwinearl

I also couldn't have pointed out the differences between heads and long block (which includes the heads) nor did I know what a turbo looked like. 5 months later I'm pretty competent at this stuff. But I also had spent the last year bike commuting full time and had access to a car and a truck when I really needed. So you could do it but it's slow and difficult and cold outside and you need tools. My car is parked at my lady friends place.

 

If you have the money and want to keep the car then do it! If you don't have the money. Well. It's your life, but you gotta think it's an old car. Did you replace those struts? How are your other bushings? Maybe it's not worth it. You will NOT get your money back from the repairs.

 

 

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I am in the middle of pricing a short block replacement out at the moment. My road map is the MaxCapacity approach, which is a new crate Short Block combined with refresh heads. This is different than a complete long block. The definition of "new motor" needs to be clarified more to compare prices.

 

The very back of the envelope calculations for a shop to do it are in the $5.5-$7k range. Here are where this ball park price range is coming from:

 

$1829 shipped EJ257 Short Block Part number 10103AC880

$500-1000 Heads Refresh

$1500 labor (remove engine, disassemble engine, transfer new components, install engine)

Other parts: Timing belt kit, Oil pump, thermostat, ARP head studs, hoses, Gasket kit, misc hosing, fluids

 

 

 

I'm working on adding things up for mine while I'm waiting to work on it. But I wonder if op really needs a new turbo [emoji2369]. Maybe some cool person in Seattle wants to help this person keep their car if op is willing to learn the work. I mean it's Seattle, you don't really need a car (I'm biased on this lol)

 

 

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Short block + heads = long block.

 

Normally people have a machine shop go through and rebuild their heads while purchasing a new short block as rebuilding the short block is almost never cost effective.

 

I would not have any of this work done at a "mom and pop" shop. You should have access to a number of Subaru specialty shops in the PNW. I would focus on getting quotes from them, and then make your decision. There is a company called IAG that can build you a short or long block and if it is installed by one of their "preferred shops" they warranty it for 2 years. Might be worth considering if you want to keep this long term.

 

Anyone who tells you to swap in a used JDM engine is not your friend and should be told to STFU. Punting the car is better than the used JDM option.

The very back of the envelope calculations for a shop to do it are in the $5.5-$7k range.

 

 

I came in right in this range on just parts and having heads worked, albeit with upgrades. Seems a reasonable range if you don't add any extras and get a reasonable rate on labor.

 

https://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/build-thread-time-280134.html