Turkeylord Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 Started this conversation in the WDYDTY4GLT thread, but thought it needed it's own thread. So I bought an AEM FailSafe WBO2 gauge, and it's great except that it's not compatible with Cobb's AccessTuner Race. Logging with a laptop is not super convenient anyway, and I wanted to be able to log with my AccessPort only. So I found this thread a while back and have slowly been working on it. I got the 0-5v out from my gauge wired up to my left TGV input last night and have been playing with it a bit and it's not quite right. So here are some graphs from a pull I did earlier. Top graph is from the ECU, showing the WBO2 (calculated from TGV volts according to AEM's formula), the stock A/F sensor, and the raw TGV volts. Bottom graph is from the FailSage gauge directly. http://i.imgur.com/cKbCOfP.png It's reading high, but mostly correlated at the start, but when I go WOT is goes back up around 5v (lean). I talked to AEM briefly and they seemed somewhat familiar, saying there might be a "5v pull-up" or something in the ECU. Anyone know what that means exactly, or how to counteract it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forced compression Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 subscribe because i plan to do this shortly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators BarManBean Posted July 14, 2015 Moderators Share Posted July 14, 2015 subbed. "Bullet-proof" your OEM TMIC! <<Buy your kit here>> Not currently in stock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkeylord Posted July 14, 2015 Author Share Posted July 14, 2015 Could it be that I need to ground the brown "Ground Analog Output" wire? Would it make a difference if I grounded it to the chassis or the harness? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RooTBeeR Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 Subscribed. I'll be deleting my TGVs(already have the delete kit, not installed yet) as soon as I get make sure my cars running fine and passes smog. "Build" Thread <--Link (OLD) '05 EJ255 now a '13 EJ257 Bottom End w/D25 heads (NEW) Forever Slow [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forced compression Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 the innovate sensors are very peculiar with their grounding, i know this from my drag car. so maybe that is something you should check into Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidInSeattle Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 Considering this myself, so I will subscribe for info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Streetlegal Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 the innovate sensors are very peculiar with their grounding, i know this from my drag car. so maybe that is something you should check into He's using an AEM though. I do agree with the innovate gauges being picky about their grounds. I had issues getting my Trans AM one to work right due to grounding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkeylord Posted July 14, 2015 Author Share Posted July 14, 2015 I might go mess with that later tonight, it's too hot out right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NSFW Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 I'm not sure why AEM's formula for converting voltage to AFR doesn't just work, but my guess is that you'll just need to fudge the numbers in that formula until the results look like the stock sensor's results. (Keeping in mind that the stock sensor won't read less than 11.2 or so.) Are you sure it's reading lean when you go WOT, or is that happening when you lift the throttle? Maximum lean readings when you lift are normal. Maximum lean at WOT would be weird though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heiche Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 also, the tgv input shouldn't have a pull-up resistor. yes, do ground your wbo2 signal gnd. BtSsm - Android app/Bluetooth adapter. LV, logging, gauges and more. For 05-14 Legacy (GT, 2.5, 3.0, 3.6), 02-14 WRX, 04-14 STi, 04-14 FXT, 05-09 OBXT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bnguyenbb6 Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 (edited) I have this exact gauge in the car wired to my passenger side TGVs. I use 2.375x + 7.613835. From my experience, trying to calibrate it with the front O2 is hard due to the delay and the slow response of the front o2. I had better results moving the Front O2 into the down pipe but it was still off a bit. I tried changing the multiplier and keeping the constant and it was still off. I tried a slope with the lowest and highest with what I saw, it was still off. I finally did it this way: Plug your laptop into the AEM O2 via the AEM software. Clear the data and take a fresh log at idle while also logging TGV volts via the AP. (Average AFR via AEM Software)=(2.375*Average TGV Volts) + B. Solve for B. It now matches the gauge logs within .2 at both idle and WOT. You can check it by clearing the logger on the gauge(logs automatically and saves the last ~3 hours) and doing a WOT pull. Compare your log with your formula. Edited July 15, 2015 by bnguyenbb6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkeylord Posted July 15, 2015 Author Share Posted July 15, 2015 ^ Awesome. Also, did you ground the brown wire? If so, to the chassis or the harness ground? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bnguyenbb6 Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 I ran both the signal and ground to the corresponding TGV wires, I can't remember the colors though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow05gtRI Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 I've been thinking about doing this for some time. I was considering placing it in the bung in Cobb's DP and wiring it to my deleted TGV. Then setting up a custom field in my wonderful BtSsm app to read WBO2 through the TGV. As I'm doing some research, I'm trying to figure out the best way to do this. At first I thought I could just buy the sensor and wire it up. However, now I'm thinking that if I do that, I won't have any "truth" data to compare it against to make sure my conversion in the TGV input voltage is correct. Would my assessment be accurate? Do I need to get the whole failsafe SW package to figure out the conversion equation to get the input voltage in the TGV correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flinkly Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 oh man, I guess i'm getting TGV deletes... I guess at least I can check my gaskets and replace at least. I looked at other potential inputs and didn't find any good ones. the 07+ air pump only has a ms-based input, so no go there. So two questions: what are the downsides to TGV deletes? Cold start engine unhappiness?Are people using direct wideband outputs or feeding the wideband to their manufacturers sensor box and then taking the wideband output from there to the TGV? * Build Thread * 26.53 MPG - 12 month Average * Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heiche Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 I've been thinking about doing this for some time. I was considering placing it in the bung in Cobb's DP and wiring it to my deleted TGV. Then setting up a custom field in my wonderful BtSsm app to read WBO2 through the TGV. As I'm doing some research, I'm trying to figure out the best way to do this. At first I thought I could just buy the sensor and wire it up. However, now I'm thinking that if I do that, I won't have any "truth" data to compare it against to make sure my conversion in the TGV input voltage is correct. Would my assessment be accurate? Do I need to get the whole failsafe SW package to figure out the conversion equation to get the input voltage in the TGV correct? At least you could just plug in the AEM formula to start. It will probably be awfully close. The "stock" AEM formula is AFR(Gas)=(2.375 * Volts) + 7.3125 but as bnguyenbb6 said, that can sometimes need a slight tweaking. snow, if you're using BtSsm w/TGV input, the custom formula would just be (2.375 * x / 50) + 7.3125 (the "x/50" converts the raw value into Volts) For anyone who hasn't seen the AEM doc: http://aemelectronics.com/files/instructions/30-4900%20Wideband%20Failsafe%20Gauge.pdf BtSsm - Android app/Bluetooth adapter. LV, logging, gauges and more. For 05-14 Legacy (GT, 2.5, 3.0, 3.6), 02-14 WRX, 04-14 STi, 04-14 FXT, 05-09 OBXT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heiche Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 oh man, I guess i'm getting TGV deletes... I guess at least I can check my gaskets and replace at least. I looked at other potential inputs and didn't find any good ones. the 07+ air pump only has a ms-based input, so no go there. So two questions: what are the downsides to TGV deletes? Cold start engine unhappiness?Are people using direct wideband outputs or feeding the wideband to their manufacturers sensor box and then taking the wideband output from there to the TGV? 1. Regarding TGV delete downsides: I haven't noticed any issues, but then I don't drive mine in the dead of winter. Note that after you start your engine, the moment you touch the accelerator at all, the TGVs will fully open for the rest of the driving "session". So they're not in effect for very long if you start up and go. 2. The WBO2 signal does have to come from the manufacturers interface module (0-5V). Unfortunately the raw data from the sensor itself is pretty meaningless BtSsm - Android app/Bluetooth adapter. LV, logging, gauges and more. For 05-14 Legacy (GT, 2.5, 3.0, 3.6), 02-14 WRX, 04-14 STi, 04-14 FXT, 05-09 OBXT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Streetlegal Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 I just realized I'm going to have to unwrap my downpipe to put a wideband bung in and then rewrap it.... Dammit... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 TGVs are for cold start emissions only. JDM cars do not have the TGV plates or divider web. There is no downside to deleting them. (I have a side-feed set of the JDM TGVDs for sale.) The Crimson Dynamo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkeylord Posted July 15, 2015 Author Share Posted July 15, 2015 For anyone who hasn't seen the AEM doc: http://aemelectronics.com/files/instructions/30-4900%20Wideband%20Failsafe%20Gauge.pdf Went back through and read more carefully... The brown wire should be connected to an analog ground input for best results. If the EMS, logger or similar device does not have an analog ground input, the brown wire should be connected to a sensor ground. If no sensor ground is available, the brown wire should be connected to a power ground. The brown wire must be connected in order to obtain correct AFR and MAP readings from the analog output(s). I'm guessing that's my problem then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow05gtRI Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 2. The WBO2 signal does have to come from the manufacturers interface module (0-5V). Unfortunately the raw data from the sensor itself is pretty meaningless so this means I need to buy the whole AEM package and not just the sensor. so reading the failsafe manual correctly, I have to have their gauge (pod-thing) installed somewhere? it seems like it (the physical gauge) is the receiver of the WBO2 sensor signal, and also the sender of the converted to 0-5V signal. after poking around their website more, I think what i really want is this (no gauge): http://www.aemelectronics.com/products/wideband-uego-air-fuel-controllers/inline-wideband-uego-afr-controller just the sensor, UEGO box, and signal wires. that would do the trick for me, I believe? anyway, I'll stop taking over your thread. thanks for the inspiration! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heiche Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 so this means I need to buy the whole AEM package and not just the sensor. so reading the failsafe manual correctly, I have to have their gauge (pod-thing) installed somewhere? it seems like it (the physical gauge) is the receiver of the WBO2 sensor signal, and also the sender of the converted to 0-5V signal. after poking around their website more, I think what i really want is this (no gauge): http://www.aemelectronics.com/products/wideband-uego-air-fuel-controllers/inline-wideband-uego-afr-controller just the sensor, UEGO box, and signal wires. that would do the trick for me, I believe? anyway, I'll stop taking over your thread. thanks for the inspiration! yes! perfect product for logging BtSsm - Android app/Bluetooth adapter. LV, logging, gauges and more. For 05-14 Legacy (GT, 2.5, 3.0, 3.6), 02-14 WRX, 04-14 STi, 04-14 FXT, 05-09 OBXT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkeylord Posted July 15, 2015 Author Share Posted July 15, 2015 Yep, this one would work too: [ame=http://www.amazon.com/Innovate-Motorsports-Digital-Wideband-Controller/dp/B00FFTAJPC/ref=pd_sim_sbs_263_3?ie=UTF8&refRID=0XV6DGFD6AJ2NZ77ZMBN]Amazon.com: Innovate Motorsports (3877) LC-2 Digital Wideband Lambda Controller Kit with O2 Sensor: Automotive[/ame] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow05gtRI Posted July 15, 2015 Share Posted July 15, 2015 is AEM's claim of "no fresh air calibration required" worth the extra $45? I found the AEM controller on amazon as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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