Grimmspeed BCS

Hey guys could questions on this

 

How should I hook this up vs the stock bcs? Also, do I need new hoses? Taking out the pill, will that wreck my hose?

First, install it with new hose. You are only talking $2-3 of hose.

 

Second, you have a couple of routing options, but only one makes sense, otherwise you should just stick with the stocker...

 

Its just a standard 3-way solenoid valve, so, you have the following ports...

 

NO (normally open) - plumb to turbo inlet

NC (normally closed)- plumb to manifold/turbo port

Vent (always open) - plumb to wastegate

 

I think I have that logic right. Wrote it down too fast, so if I'm off, someone will correct me...

where would i get hose ? just like canadian tire

Its just a standard 3-way solenoid valve, so, you have the following ports...

 

NO (normally open) - plumb to turbo inlet

NC (normally closed)- plumb to manifold/turbo port

Vent (always open) - plumb to wastegate

 

You got it a little mixed up--that is for using the top port of an external wastegate to control boost.

 

For an internal gate in "feed" aka "interrupt" boost control, air should always flow to the wastegate unless the solenoid is energized. Therefore the Normally Open port should go to the wastegate and the Always Open port should go to the compressor outlet/pressure source. You can reverse it as well, putting the Always Open port to the wastegate and the Normally Open port to the compressor outlet. The normally closed port goes back to the intake.

 

Think about it for a second. If the solenoid is at 0 duty (lowest boost desired) air should always pass from the compressor outlet to the wastegate. If the solenoid were at 95-100% duty the normally closed port opens up and no boost is applied to the wastegate actuator.

^^What you describe is how the stock system works, aka "bleeder." If that is what you want, leave the stocker. Also, your method of control isn't a IWG vs EWG topic. Your control options are the same.

 

The way I described it is how you would hook up a MBC, but of course you still have ECU control. The wastegate doesn't see manifold until target boost has been achieved.

 

You can get vacuum hose where ever you get autoparts...

 

Read up here...

http://www.cobbtuning.com/info/?ID=3482

 

Check out the 3-Port EBCS Internal Wastegate Set-up, Interrupt-type, which is what I was trying to describe...

 

Now, I'm an advocate of the stock boost control system as I prefer its failure modes over what I'm describing. Really my point here is that I don't see a reason to move away from the stock BCS. I prefer tweaking the stock system with pill changes and upgraded WGA's...

I'm a little confused as well. The way I have my Prodrive EBCS set up on my IWG turbo is in "interrupt" mode. Boostin discribed how mines is set up. With 0% WGDC I run what my wg will allow 9-12 psi (little bit of creep up top). At 95% WGDC I bleed off that pressure to the wg back into the inlet of the turbo. I still maintain all the ECM fail safes like stock. Anyways OP look at this link from Grimmspeed to confirm installation.

 

http://www.hptmotorsports.com/grimmspeed_subaru_3port_electronic_boost_control_solenoids_ebcs.php

Or, you could try reading the directions...

 

 

https://www.grimmspeed.com/install_guides/PDFs/boost_control_solenoid_online_version.pdf

Hey guys could questions on this

 

How should I hook this up vs the stock bcs? Also, do I need new hoses? Taking out the pill, will that wreck my hose?

 

3-port solenoids don't require the pill.

 

Also keep in mind that you need to retune your WGDC tables (and probably turbo dynamics) in order to use this solenoid. Without a retune you're likely to end up with much more boost than you really want (fuel cut, CELs, etc).

Or, you could try reading the directions...

 

 

https://www.grimmspeed.com/install_guides/PDFs/boost_control_solenoid_online_version.pdf

 

Come on man, good directions make it far too easy...

the stock configuration:

 

http://www.perrinperformance.com/shared/images/jeff_pics/boost_control/boostcontrolsystemtypicalelectronic10psi.jpg

 

http://www.perrinperformance.com/shared/images/jeff_pics/boost_control/boostcontrolsystemtypicalelectronicplusboost.jpg

 

What you describe is how the stock system works, aka "bleeder." If that is what you want, leave the stocker. Also, your method of control isn't a IWG vs EWG topic. Your control options are the same.

 

this is what I was trying to describe:

 

http://www.perrinperformance.com/shared/images/jeff_pics/boost_control/boostcontrolsystemperrinlelectronic10psi.jpg

 

http://www.perrinperformance.com/shared/images/jeff_pics/boost_control/boostcontrolsystemperrinlelectronicplusboost.jpg

 

 

http://www.perrinperformance.com/pages/show/113

 

As far as IWG vs EWG, an EWG has 3 control options versus an IWG which has only two. You can do a "bleed" type to the side port of an EWG (same as stock) with the EBCS tee'd in, using the normally closed port on the EBCS. You can do an interrupt type to the side port using the normally open port just like the pic I posted above ^. The third option is supplying pressure to the top port using the normally closed port on the EBCS to push the poppet valve shut, the method I prefer.

 

http://www.perrinperformance.com/shared/images/jeff_pics/boost_control/boostcontrolsystemperrinlelectronicexternal10psiv2.jpg

 

http://www.perrinperformance.com/shared/images/jeff_pics/boost_control/boostcontrolsystemperrinlelectronicexternalboostplusv2.jpg

Perrin's 3-port + EWG diagrams make no sense to me. I thought the whole point of that top port was so that you could put more pressure on top than on the bottom, to hold the wastegate tightly closed. If you're going to plumb it to use equal pressure top and bottom, why even bother with the top port at all? Atmospheric pressure on top and bottom would have the same effect.

 

Last time this came up, someone said the EWG was designed so that top pressure was applied over more surface area that bottom pressure, to give it a mechanical advantage, but I don't see how you can implement that with a flexible diagram. As soon as it moves away from its seat, any difference in area would be lost.

 

Has anyone here tuned a 2-port EWG with a 3-port BCS, using Perrin's schematic?

Hey guys im looking to install the grimspeed ebcs. I can see where the old bcs is but i dont see which way to install the new one.

 

Does anyone have any pictures of an installed bcs? I just need to see the position. Plus, any tips to get it to work right ?

 

You guys use clamps or plastic tie wraps (zip ties) ? Easier with intercooler off?

the stock configuration:

 

http://www.perrinperformance.com/shared/images/jeff_pics/boost_control/boostcontrolsystemtypicalelectronic10psi.jpg

 

http://www.perrinperformance.com/shared/images/jeff_pics/boost_control/boostcontrolsystemtypicalelectronicplusboost.jpg

 

 

 

this is what I was trying to describe:

 

http://www.perrinperformance.com/shared/images/jeff_pics/boost_control/boostcontrolsystemperrinlelectronic10psi.jpg

 

http://www.perrinperformance.com/shared/images/jeff_pics/boost_control/boostcontrolsystemperrinlelectronicplusboost.jpg

 

 

http://www.perrinperformance.com/pages/show/113

 

As far as IWG vs EWG, an EWG has 3 control options versus an IWG which has only two. You can do a "bleed" type to the side port of an EWG (same as stock) with the EBCS tee'd in, using the normally closed port on the EBCS. You can do an interrupt type to the side port using the normally open port just like the pic I posted above ^. The third option is supplying pressure to the top port using the normally closed port on the EBCS to push the poppet valve shut, the method I prefer.

 

http://www.perrinperformance.com/shared/images/jeff_pics/boost_control/boostcontrolsystemperrinlelectronicexternal10psiv2.jpg

 

http://www.perrinperformance.com/shared/images/jeff_pics/boost_control/boostcontrolsystemperrinlelectronicexternalboostplusv2.jpg

 

Okay, I see what you were saying. Pictures say so much...

 

NSFW, I haven't taken a EWG valve apart, but the diagram doesn't make sense, unless the bottom portion of the diaphragm has less working area than the top...That perhaps could explain your confusion...

Hey guys im looking to install the grimspeed ebcs. I can see where the old bcs is but i dont see which way to install the new one.

 

Does anyone have any pictures of an installed bcs? I just need to see the position. Plus, any tips to get it to work right ?

 

You guys use clamps or plastic tie wraps (zip ties) ? Easier with intercooler off?

 

You need to tune it to work properly.

 

I wouldn't suggest setting it up until you have arrangements made to tune for it.

NSFW, I haven't taken a EWG valve apart, but the diagram doesn't make sense, unless the bottom portion of the diaphragm has less working area than the top...That perhaps could explain your confusion...

 

Yeah but the confusing part is how the EWG maintains that relationship as the diaphragm flexes.

 

(Another thing that could explain my confusion is if someone at Perrin just got it wrong when they did that diagram.)

http://www.perrinperformance.com/shared/images/jeff_pics/boost_control/boostcontrolsystemperrinlelectronicexternalboostplusv2.jpg

 

I am using this style of configuration on my Tial 44 in my Rx-7, except using a 2 port solenoid (which I will explain later). If you physically pressurize the side port of an EWG, it will not hold pressure. It will slowly leak out. The top port however will hold pressure, and that's why the 3 port solenoid needs normally vents the upper chamber when it cycles off. This will create a pressure difference between the top and bottom. Internal wastegates are like this too (the ones I have tested, I have never tested an IHI actuator). If you look at any aftermarket external electronic boost controller (Greddy Profec etc) they all tell you to hook the included 3 port solenoid to the top port. I was kind of stunned when I got into Subarus that people hook their EBCS to the side port. I didn't know people even did that, it didn't make much sense to me.

 

The cool thing about the external wastegate is that you can achieve a wider range of achieveable boost levels by carefully controlling the pressure sources for the side port and top port. In this diagram it shows a tee, but you don't have to use that configuration. For example, if you want to run way more pressure than the spring is rated for, you can hook it up like this:

http://www.legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=80638&stc=1&d=1266762725

 

that's from the TurboSmart Eboost instructions. You can also run a separate pressure source to the side port and top port, sourcing air from after the intercooler for one port and before the intercooler for the other. Another thing you can do is control an EWG with the top port using a factory 2 port solenoid. I use a factory Rx-7 2 port EBCS on my external wastegate. Here's one way it can be hooked up, using a tee:

 

http://www.legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=80640&stc=1&d=1266763195

 

it's the same as using a 3 port solenoid, you just make a vent with plumbing fittings. Right now on my Rx-7 I am not using a tee. I actually have a stainless 6AN line to the side port and regular 3/16" or 4mm neoprene fuel hose hooked to the factory Rx-7 solenoid. Once you understand how these things work you realize that there are a gazillion possible plumbing combinations and all can be made to work if you know what you're doing. They just affect the amount of solenoid duty required to achieve a particular boost level.

I found out the hose size has an effect on wgdc too..Case in point...my wgdc dropped a good 15% with the right size hose from the vent port..

If you physically pressurize the side port of an EWG, it will not hold pressure. It will slowly leak out.

 

Ah, thanks! Now the plumbing makes sense.

Just stumbled on this over at NASIOC:

 

http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/6545/grimmspeed.jpg

 

Same as Perrin's.

I was a little confused on how to actually mount it at first, so here you go.

 

http://photos.imageevent.com/mattg/legacygt/websize/IMG_8302.JPG

awesome, this will help lots. Your the best Where did you get those hoses?

wow. I put that on wrong on a car or two

haha hilarious. So taking off the intercooler completely will be the best way to install my new hoses? The hoses that run under the intercooler seem to be clipped down and you can't get at them without taking off the intercooler. I guess if you stayed with a 2 port configuration you would be okay, but running new lines ? Yeah, maybe take that sucker off.

awesome, this will help lots. Your the best Where did you get those hoses?

I was at my buddies shop and he had hoses on hand. You should be able to get it at any auto parts store though.

With the BCS in that orientation on the bracket, my engine cover wouldn't fit. So, I just secured it with zip ties under the bracket and fit the engine cover over it. I like keeping the engine cover to pressurize the area above the TMIC. Also, I went with slightly smaller vacuum lines when running the new lines to the BCS. It should help maintain consistent pressure.

-Franz