Bad clutch or gearbox issue?

06 OBXT. Wifes car. 100% stock. Rarely abused. 60k miles

 

Car grinds into first gear pretty much 100% of the time, even when dead stopped. Replaced the trans oil with subaru extra s, bled the clutch, and fiddled around with the pedal adjustment rod. Car shifts like butter between all gears except into first. pedal engagement is close to the floor, but nothing unusual in my mind. When I've experienced a bad clutch before there were always issues shifting between gears and obvious slipping. I don't notice any of these issues. So does this sound like a bad clutch, or is it a gearbox issue?

Sounds like a first gear issue to me. As you mentioned on clutch issues, they tend to be present in more than 1 gear, and they tend to start at higher gears and work lower (if the clutch was wearing out).

Uuuugggghhh. That's what I was afraid of, but wanted some second opinions.

 

So I'm looking at cracking the case open and replacing syncros? I've never done any work inside of a transmission. I guess its a find out when you get it open kind of deal? This is the only car I have that I can put 2 rear facing car seats into, so I can't be without it for more than a day or two.

 

Also, is there any chance Subaru doesn't say tough luck for warranty? Are they going to claim abuse? Kind of a whole other issue I guess. I know I've beat on a transmissions in other cars a lot harder than my wife could have ever done in this time, seems kind of shitty.

You don't "find out when you get it open" with transmissions. You do it right, and everything is fine, or you do it wrong and break everything else.

 

Take it to a professional. You are in Annapolis. Call Andrewtech (240-683-1000) and talk to Sam about pricing and stuff. Stock rebuilds are relatively innexpensive, and with the right scheduling, you can be in-and-out in less than a day.

 

All that said, if the clutch doesn't slip then it's not the clutch. It COULD be something like the slave cylinder or master though. If you have to "pump" the clutch pedal in neutral before it'll go into gear without grinding, that's a good indicator of either of those.

 

Typically, Extra-S doesn't solve grind issues that well. 3 quarts of Lightweight Shockproof and 1 quart of Motul 75W90 usually solves grind issues. You could try running that as a possible fix. If it still grinds after that, then it's definitely a synchro issue.

 

It is possible that it will be covered under warranty, but unlikely.

What I meant was I'd find out exactly what the issue was when I opened it, not I'll figure out if I can fix it or not then.

 

I'm not a huge fan of masking a real problem with a fluid change, but in this case I'm leaning towards it. $50 worth of fluid is a lot more palatable than a $1000 or more rebuild.

the fluid is not going to fix it

 

Is the clutch fully disengaging when it is pressed in?

It's unlikely that opening it will give any information to a non-expert. Unless the synchro is physically broken, there is little visual difference to the unexperienced between a mildly pooped synchro and a fresh one.

 

I'd evaluate the condition of the clutch hydraulics before going much further. Having the pickup point AT the floor doesn't sound right. It should be pretty low, but not right on the floor.

 

If the clutch checks out, fluid could very well solve the problem. It's not a "mask the real issue" kind of thing. Just like engine oil, trans fluid degrades over time and needs to be replaced. Similarly, not all grind issues are solved by the same type of fluid. Just like engine oil, some cars burn synthetic while others don't. Fluid is the driving factor for how well synchros work. In fact, fluid is the ONLY reason synchros work. Don't overlook it as a "masking" kind of thing.

 

Sort out the clutch issue first. If it checks out, change the fluid. If the Shockproof/Motul combo doesn't solve your issues, then you definitely require a professional to go in and replace parts.

Is the clutch fully disengaging when it is pressed in?

I'm going to say yes, but I'll admit I'm not 100% sure. If you sit there with the car in gear and the clutch held in, like at a traffic light, you do NOT smell burnt clutch. It also doesn't pull on flat ground, with clutch in in 1st gear. other than that, I don't know how to test it. I fiddled with the rod under the dash, and ended up going 360 deg in both directions in 90 steps and really wasn't able to improve anything.

 

Disengagement is not AT the floor, but it is close to the floor. Being my Wife's car, I can't say if it has fallen since new or not, only that it is different from my other vehicles. She is of no help on that either. Like I said, it doesn't seem particularly wrong.

 

Master cyl doesn't have the tell tale spongy pedal or pedal that goes soft if you hold it. I feel comfortable that it is ok. Fresh Castrol GTLMA was put in about 15k ago. I think it is fine. I can bleed the slave again, and replace the fluid, that's easy. I'm not convinced that's going to solve it, but I guess due diligence demands it.

 

On the trans fluid brew, 3 qts of the shockproof and 1 of regular? I started to read up on that and it seems like what you are recommending has the ratios reversed from what I've seen elsewhere on this board. Is that just a typo?

I've been recommend 3qts of Shockproof and 1qt of Motul Gear 300 for a while now. When that cocktail was in its infancy, we started with 1 quart of Shockproof and 3 of Motul.

Changing fluids MAY make it better, for awhile, but it's not gonna fix the real issue, whatever it may be.

Unless the issue is fluid. Extra-S doesn't work for everyone. The way Synchros work, based on their state of wear, fluid could be all that is needed to solve the problem.

 

IF the Shockproof mix doesn't work, then the issue is definitely a failed component. There have been very few situations where a grind has remained persistent after using the Shockproof mix. And if that is the case, you are no worse off than you are now.

 

I've been inside my fair share of Subaru transmissions.

I'm sure you have, but in this case fluid isn't gonna help. Re-read his symptoms.

 

Either his clutch is not fully disengaging or the tranny is broke.

 

 

OP: Is it any better if you rev-match or double clutch?

OP: Is it any better if you rev-match or double clutch?

 

It's only at a dead stop into 1st gear, so no. Never really try and stuff it into 1 as a downshift. Even if it did downshift into 1 while rolling, once you take it out of gear and let off the clutch, like at a red light, it won't go back in without grinding. All the other shifts are fine.

Yeah, fluid is NOT going to help you.

 

It's time to take it to a shop... unless you think you can handle it yourself

I've built engines before, just not transmissions, I feel I could handle it, and if it were my car and not my wifes, I probably would do it myself. Just take my time, measure everything twice, and follow the "vacation photos." As it stands though, most likely I will take it to a shop. I thought about buying a used trans, rebuilding it, and swapping it in, but thats a small fortune in itself: this is one expensive tranny.

 

Gotta think about what makes sense. It needs tires as well, and if the Wifey and I add a 3rd ankle biter, we might have to replace it with something that has a 3rd row anyway. Might try the fluid and dump it on carmax.

Not a bad idea. Tire condition doesn't matter to Carmax. They assume that standard maintenance will need to be done (tires, brakes, wipers, things like that). Not worth putting tires on. Just toss some Shockproof in the trans, and drive it straight there.

Although the fluid probably won't make a difference, if you're not gonna keep the car, why not try it.

Yeah I just don't really want to do that, other than this, we like the car. Well I should say the Wife LOVES it, I like it. And pretty much anything with a 3rd row is about as desirable as herpes of the eye.

 

This sucks.

Try the fluid. You have little to lose but $60. If it works, you can keep the car and keep going. If it doesn't, you can determine if you want to spend $1000+ to tear the box out, open, and fix it... or trade it to Carmax and get something else.

 

As for getting something with a 3rd row? Diesel Toureag 1 had 3 rows. The TDI Q7 also has 3 rows... though for substantially more money. They DO drive sooo sweet though...

Yeah I'll do the shockproof for sure. If it doesn't work, I might try a cocktail with the GM syncromesh as well, as that stuff has significantly improved the shift quality in my s-10. Gotta read up on requirements before I try that though.

 

The 3rd row on the Toureg, and almost all of the small/mid size SUVs with optional 3rd rows have terrible access. Back crushing to put a kid in a car seat into. I just did a quick ebay search on the Q7 and they seem to be pretty reasonable, I'll have to check them out more. Do the Diesels have the urea (coughpisscough) canister like the MB blue tecs? A good used MB R500 is down to the mid $30k range, although the AMG version is still holding in the $50ks. Thats kind of where i'm leaning right now. yeah its the dreaded minivan, but how bad can a big Merc be?

Do NOT use Synchromesh. All vehicles it is intended for require GL-4 fluids.

 

The newer Q7 is essentially a Toureag 2 with 3 rows of seating (The Toureag 2 has only 2 rows). The diesels do not have urea injection.

 

I was COMPLETELY impressed with the TDI Q7. My F-I-L and I had a look at them, and were really happy with how easy they were. I could get into the 3rd row easily, with tons of leg room (I'm 6'1"). There was still a TON of cargo room behind the 3rd row as well. I was very pleasently surprised. It was laid out MUCH better than the gen-1 Toureag.

 

We looked at a few Mercedes vehicles (the S-class in particular, both AMG variants and non) and I wasn't impressed. They were nice cars for sure, but missing something. They just didn't feel right.

 

The TDI Q7 is on the pricey end of the SUV spectrum, but worth every penny. The 3.2L versions are a bit lackluster in performance, but play the part well and are considerably less expensive. If I had to buy a 3-row vehicle tomorrow, the diesel Q7 would be on the very short list of possibilities.

Roger on the Syncromesh, that's why I said I had to read up before I tried it. Thanks for saving me the trouble

 

I'll have to put the Q7 on the short list. Gotta read up and then go drive one. I admit I've been having some unholy Diesel lust as of late.

Everyone gets it. It's perfectly natural.

 

Only downside to the TDI Q7 is the price. It's worth it to get the "premium plus" over the "premium", but the "prestige" version is a great value... if you can foot the bill. It would cost you double the price difference to swap out the nuance differences. Still, a 2011 will tip the wallet at $70k... if you can find one. Annapolis Audi sells them before they hit the shores, and states like Colorado require non-refundable deposits of $5000 prior to ordering.

$70k is out of the question, thats double what I can afford. The used 4.2s seem to be holding their price and 19hwy sucks. If the 3.6 is slower than the outback, the wife will be seriously unhappy,and thus, so will I. They just have to come down in price before I can consider it seriously.

I agree. It'll be a tough transition from an OBXT to almost anything else, really.

 

Doesn't the Mazda CX-9 have 3 rows and the powerplant from the Mazdaspeed3?

 

I wouldn't rule out the V6 variant of the Q7. They still do alright. 280hp and 360 ft-lbs should make it tolerably quick.