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-   -   22T or 20G? (https://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194032)

monkeyposeur 10-02-2012 10:44 AM

22T or 20G?
 
As many of you know I am gathering parts to swap my 22T into my wagon. I'm not sure of the direction that I will go with the build and I'm not in a rush because I want to think it through and end up with something reliable.

However, I have been checking out 20Gs on ebay and they can be had fairly cheaply. In some instances I have found a complete 20G w/trans, ecu, and wiring harness for $1600. This has me considering going in that direction instead of building up the 22T. I could sell the 22T block halves for $600-700 just by themselves.

I have a few options with the 22T that I am considering: 1. Keeping everything stock (heads, ecu, etc.), but add a tmic and tdo4, which would be plenty of fun compared to my 22E. 2. Getting some wrx heads, ecu, intake mani, and using the 22T.

Option 1 would be the cheapest, but also the most limited. Option 2 would give me tuning options and would be even more fun. But option 2 would also cost about the same as getting a complete 20G w/trans from ebay (probably need a standalone, would the 20G ecu work?).

Anyone have any opinions on 22T vs 20G? Thanks!

DOHCEJ22E1 10-02-2012 12:38 PM

How about 22T block w/20G heads, 20G wiring harness, 20G ECU/aftermarket ECU, & having FUN with that combo? You can sell the 20G block & support your hybrid even more. That would be VERY CLOSE to the 22B engine. Just food for thought :D

subikid90 10-02-2012 12:49 PM

EJ22T with the 205 heads will be a tougher engine and probably be easier to tune/wire than the EJ20G. Of course I am kind of biased lol

DOHCEJ22E1 10-02-2012 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by subikid90 (Post 4096752)
EJ22T with the 205 heads will be a tougher engine and probably be easier to tune/wire than the EJ20G. Of course I am kind of biased lol

Truth. With 205 heads & wiring, he'll be able to enjoy easier tuning & slightly more compatibility with later hardware/software but 20G! LOL! How often do you come across a 20G? 205s can be found in almost every junkyard in this country! Which makes the 205 more appealing...

monkeyposeur 10-02-2012 08:51 PM

Thanks for the opinions guys. As far as 205s in the junkyards I have yet to come across a single one and I frequent them often. It's probably because there are so many subie enthusiasts out here that they never make it to the bone yard. I've looked for 20G heads but have yet to find any. :(

As far as tuning the 205 route, are there base maps that I could use before I got it up on a Dyno? From what I understand a Dyno tune is $500-600 each time? It would be nice to be able to drive it to get tuned the first time without it blowing up, lol.

I think I can find a 20G ecu easy enough, and then get it Robtuned. But a wrx ecu is even easier to come by, and a lot cheaper. A wrx wiring harness is also fairly easy to find. I really want to use this 22T block if I can. :)

subikid90 10-02-2012 09:37 PM

I will have a base map for mine (already have it but not sure if it is correct till I have the motor running) that I can pass along to you. It should give you a start. I am thinking about doing a speed density tune, there is a local shop here, Synergy Tuning, that does them and guys are loving the gains. They will also have a dyno soon.

Dyno time is about $75-150 an hour depending on the place, plus $200 or so for the tune. I have noticed tuners like to work a little extra for different setups, aka EJ22T w/ 205 heads, because it adds to their base maps for other people.

monkeyposeur 10-02-2012 09:46 PM

The 22T internals are pretty beefy. I'd like to use them to keep thing simple for my own benefit, but aren't you planning on doing a stroker build? What are you doing for internals?

Kennyfvholla 10-03-2012 09:38 AM

Stay with the 22T bottom end, and maybe add some ACL race bearings throughout. Put 20g heads on it. Follow all that up with upgraded fun stuff like a bit of porting, injectors, fuel pump, etc. You know what I'm talking about. Also, make sure you get a nice aluminum radiator to keep it cool.

99legacyturbo 10-03-2012 11:47 AM

I have a 22t with 20g heads and I'm super happy with it way happier than I was with just a 20g. Your compression drops from 8:1 on the 20g to like 7-7.5:1 having the 20g heads on the 22t cause of the thicker head gaskets you'll need but you'll be gaining engine size going from a 2.0 to like a 2.3ish. So in my experiance I spool alot faster and have more torque with the 22t with 20g heads. And it really wasn't hard at all to find the right parts and the wireharnes I just made myself anyway cause I'm standalone. I also could send my maps I have one for 10psi and one for 20psi. Any questions you have about doing the hybrid feel free tO ask

SpecBamf41 10-03-2012 12:07 PM

what do you think about a ej205 and 25d heads? im having better luck finding 2.slow blocks then 2.5. only thing is trying to spool my turbo with a 2.0 might be hell

DOHCEJ22E1 10-03-2012 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swagon_Wagon (Post 4098345)
what do you think about a ej205 and 25d heads? im having better luck finding 2.slow blocks then 2.5. only thing is trying to spool my turbo with a 2.0 might be hell

Do not use 96 25D heads on a 205. The 25D head chambers are bigger than the 205 bore. The 97-99 25D heads may be a more direct fit but you'd have to place 205 gaskets on them to make sure that the chambers are within the bore.

These are 22e MLS head gaskets on the 97-99 25D heads.
Note how the chambers are enclosed within the bore with a little extra space.
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w...ton25Dhead.jpg

subikid90 10-03-2012 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DOHCEJ22E1 (Post 4098461)
Do not use 96 25D heads on a 205. The 25D head chambers are bigger than the 205 bore. The 97-99 25D heads may be a more direct fit but you'd have to place 205 gaskets on them to make sure that the chambers are within the bore.

These are 22e MLS head gaskets on the 97-99 25D heads.
Note how the chambers are enclosed within the bore with a little extra space.
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w...ton25Dhead.jpg

^Agree 100%. You can use heads from a smaller bore, but you should have them matched to the bore. There are a few companies that do this with a CNC machine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by monkeyposeur (Post 4097631)
The 22T internals are pretty beefy. I'd like to use them to keep thing simple for my own benefit, but aren't you planning on doing a stroker build? What are you doing for internals?

Yes I am doing forged internals. EJ257 Nitrated crank, ACL bearings rod and mains, wiseco pistons, and scat rods. I am on the verge of having custom rods made or custom pistons. GSC S2 cams, BC springs and retainers, Supertech valves and shimless bucket conversion. :wub:

monkeyposeur 10-03-2012 05:26 PM

Sounds awesome subikid!

If I used 20G heads w/the 22T can I use the 22T intake manifold or do you need the 20G intake mani? Also, do you use 22T or 20G HGs, I would think the 22Ts?

99legacyturbo, what other parts did you need? Did you use the 22T coilpack as well?

DOHCEJ22E1 10-03-2012 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by monkeyposeur (Post 4098863)
Sounds awesome subikid!

If I used 20G heads w/the 22T can I use the 22T intake manifold or do you need the 20G intake mani? Also, do you use 22T or 20G HGs, I would think the 22Ts?

99legacyturbo, what other parts did you need? Did you use the 22T coilpack as well?

If you use 20G heads, you must use the 20G intake manifold as well. You use 22T head gaskets. Head gaskets must match the block because of the bore size.

subikid90 10-03-2012 06:48 PM

Yes you almost always have to match the intake mani to the heads.

monkeyposeur 10-03-2012 07:14 PM

Ok. So the 20G heads are great, but I would also have to find the matching intake mani. That might be hard to find, but doable. I can easily find 205 heads and intake mani since they are plentiful. I found some on bbs actually, but I have spent enough this month on subies so I want to wait and save a bit before I buy them and they might not be available then. I'm trying to limit my impulse subie spending, lol.

So what would the advantage of 20G vs 205 heads be? The main advantage of the 20G heads would be that I could use a stock 22T ecu to run them. Other than that, what would be the pros and cons?

Another thing, what about the dash unit for either swap? Can I use the stock gauges (mph, rpms, etc.) or will I need the matching dash unit? I wouldn't mind a wrx dash actually. :)

subikid90 10-03-2012 07:19 PM

You can use everything that is currently on your car besides the fuel, ecu and engine stuff.

Contact Brian at Iwire, he can do the wiring merge for $650ish.

monkeyposeur 10-03-2012 07:29 PM

I was thinking about pulling a wiring harness from a junkyard legacy and having that merged then when I do the swap there will be less downtime. Would I need to send the complete wiring harness? Everything?

edit: I read the Wiring Harness Merge How To in the Turbo FAQ by Brian of IWire. I will probably have him do the merge to save myself some headache. It looks like a PITA especially if it is your first time.

The more I look into it the more the WRX USDM route seems the way to go for ease of finding parts, tuning possibilites, etc.

SpecBamf41 10-04-2012 12:15 PM

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=2415763

DOHCEJ22E1 10-04-2012 12:30 PM

http://www.rs25.com/forums/f128/t104...20g-heads.html

Apparently, 20G heads can & will run on a 22T with no issues at all. Just need a little fine tuning. Read Susiemk's posts.

SpecBamf41 10-04-2012 02:32 PM

Is high compression motors taking over the 2nd gen forum. I'm starting to get the bug too.

Anyone one wonder about ej18 heads on a 25?

Who all is going high compression?

Sent from my SCH-I800 using Tapatalk 2

99legacyturbo 10-04-2012 02:55 PM

I got custom head gaskets cause you need thicker ones cause on the 22t the pistons come above the deck. Call rallyspec they told me what gaskets to use and had them for pretty cheap and they were cosworth so I know there good. And for intake manifold I used the stock manifold of the ej25 that came out of my car originally it's prolly way easier to find and cheaper than a ej20g intake manifold. And as far oil pump goes your Gunna wana get a ej25 Sti oil pump cause you'll need the extra flow for the piston sprayers and dohc heads.

twisty 10-04-2012 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swagon_Wagon (Post 4100462)
Is high compression motors taking over the 2nd gen forum. I'm starting to get the bug too.

Anyone one wonder about ej18 heads on a 25?

Who all is going high compression?

Sent from my SCH-I800 using Tapatalk 2


im staying bone stock on my L wagon. its front wheel drive, no real point in doing huge engine mods. ill do suspension and some bolt ons, give it a good paint job and such. then look for a good awd base to build up as a project. im thinking of going rally with whatever i find, that way i can use it for work as well. theres some sites i work at that i cant even get my dodge truck down to without getting stuck.

monkeyposeur 10-04-2012 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 99legacyturbo (Post 4100506)
I got custom head gaskets cause you need thicker ones cause on the 22t the pistons come above the deck. Call rallyspec they told me what gaskets to use and had them for pretty cheap and they were cosworth so I know there good. And for intake manifold I used the stock manifold of the ej25 that came out of my car originally it's prolly way easier to find and cheaper than a ej20g intake manifold. And as far oil pump goes your Gunna wana get a ej25 Sti oil pump cause you'll need the extra flow for the piston sprayers and dohc heads.

Good stuff to know. I put Subaru HGs on my SS.

I cleared my basement out so I can move the 22T block down there and put it on an engine stand and start to get to work on it. I want to start with installing ACL race bearings. There are a few options. What would you go with?

Rods: http://www.rallysportdirect.com/1993...L_Rod-Bearings
Mains: http://www.rallysportdirect.com/1993..._Main-Bearings

subikid90 10-04-2012 09:25 PM

You have to measure the mains and rods to figure out what size you need. For rods and mains I just take the motor to the machine shop and have them do it. Make sure you tell them the clearances you want for the rods and mains.

I am assuming you are going with the stock EJ22T crank? If not look into King bearings, they have a good bearing that has better quality control than ACL does.

monkeyposeur 10-04-2012 09:33 PM

Yes, I am planning on keeping the stock 22T crank. I am stoked to pull out the crank and I will ask them to check it. I have the FSM, if it has the numbers for clearances is that what I should use as my guide?

99legacyturbo 10-05-2012 02:32 PM

Well you Should measure your crank and compare it to stock measurements to make sure it didn't wear at all

monkeyposeur 10-10-2012 08:03 PM

I put the 22T down in the basement where I can work on it.

The WRX heads route is probably the way I am going to go with this build. If the wrx ecu is tunable why would I even want to consider using a standalone?

subikid90 10-10-2012 10:57 PM

Stand alone systems are not needed if you do the WRX ECU swap, unless you plan to do something wild, and even then you can probably get away with the WRX ECU.

For HC and SC builds they tend to be a better route to, but for turbos the WRX ECU is just fine.

DOHCEJ22E1 10-11-2012 10:04 AM

If you're doing that, you will need the WRX crank gear too. 0.2 cents.

Kennyfvholla 10-11-2012 12:39 PM

Yeah, stay with the WRX ECU. Much less of a pain.

monkeyposeur 10-11-2012 07:52 PM

Thanks for all the great info guys. It is nice to finally have a plan. Since I am going the WRX route maybe I can upgrade my gauge cluster while I am at it.

monkeyposeur 10-15-2012 12:40 AM

Gonna pull the trigger on a WRX harness and ecu tomorrow. :)

subikid90 10-15-2012 09:08 AM

Sweet! look forward to the build!

Btw the parts for the intake showed up finally, I am going to mock it up this week I hope.

I want to find someone local with an SS to mock it up to just to be sure it fits perfect. If you know anyone let me know.

monkeyposeur 10-15-2012 08:48 PM

I don't know anyone out there with an SS.

That's good to hear about the SS intake subikid. I want to do each mod on the SS one at a time that way I can judge how it actually changes the performance. First I'll install the coffee can intake and see how it does, then the XT tmic, and lastly the TD04. Then I'll be done with engine mods on it for a while. Maybe down the road I'll put some 20G heads on it.

The wrx ecu & harness are on their way. The harness consists of a complete dash harness and engine harness. Since I will have the complete dash harness that means I will be able to swap in a wrx gauge cluster with a few simple modifications. :)

I'll start looking for 205 heads next month. I want to do a TGV delete w/phenolic spacers and upgrade the oil pump. I am debating whether to keep the SS oil pickup or upgrade to a killer bee pickup. It would be fun to split the block and use ARP bolts, but that's probably unecessary and very expensive, lol. Once I gather enough parts I'll start a build thread.

edit: I am wondering if I can use the 22T water cross over pipe, and hard coolant lines, etc. Or will I need to use the corresponding 205 bits? What I really need is a trashed wrx longblock for parts, lol.

subikid90 10-15-2012 09:16 PM

You want to do the killerbee upgrade, no question about it. You will need a 257 oil pan though.

I believe you want the 205 crossover pipe. Pretty much you need everything from a 205 but the short block.

I want to do the sti cluster conversion, sweeping gauges ftw!

monkeyposeur 10-15-2012 09:41 PM

Killerbee it is then. This is going to be a fun build.

I love the sweeping gauges too, ha ha. I took my neighbor's rental '11 Forester on a joyride while I was house sitting and it did the sweepy thing. I was wondering if you could wire up an sti cluster. Is it possible to do w/wrx bits?

subikid90 10-15-2012 09:48 PM

Yes just look into the sti swap for bugeyes, there are diy's on nasioc iirc

It would be horrible to build a motor then have the pickup tube crack on you and blow a rod or spin a bearing.

monkeyposeur 10-16-2012 06:52 PM

I am going to start the process of splitting the block. I came upon this suggestion for splitting the block on rs25: "after you take the pistons out and ALL of the bolts holding the block together. Slide a long extension, like 18inches long (or a long peice of metal), through the wrist pin access holes while passing through the small end of the rods. Do this on both sides of the block. After doing this, spin the crank with a 22mm socket on the crank bolt. the block will EASILY split in half. No hammering."

Does this sound like a good idea? It seems like it would work great, but I would worry that it could possibly do damage to something.

subikid90 10-16-2012 06:57 PM

That should work fine. Dont forget the bolt under the windage tray and the other below the rear main seal.

I use a rubber mallet and just tap it apart when it is sitting right side up on a table.


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