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"stage 2" VF40 to VF52, stock fuel.


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Has anyone that's done this care to share their impressions? I've got a catless turbo back and a pretty conservative tune on the car at the moment. The mod bug is starting to rear it's ugly head again and I want a bit more power. I'm looking around and it seems like the VF52 + an aftermarket topmount can get some pretty decent numbers (280-290whp), but then it also seems like there's these super stock turbo cars at 270/280whp. These could very well be inflated numbers though, depending on the dyno.

I guess my question here is whether or not a more aggressively tuned VF40 car with more bolt ons (tmic/headers/intake) will be as quick as a VF52 car with a catless UP/DP and bigger topmount but on the stock fuel system. There's a lot of numbers floating around and I'd like to hear some real world experiences.

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Why focus on the numbers, then? Why not instead focus on what's needed? You need a tmic if you don't already have one, and you might as well get the fuel pump. You're not going to flow enough through the 40 to utilize the headers or intake. If you're targeting 300whp, a 40 won't get you there. Plus, in order to get close you are pushing more boost than your turbo would like to see.. did you read the turbo wiki thread?
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i went stage 2 with a BNR 16g turbo, FMIC, DW fuel pump, GoFastBits Manual boost control. Intake, pro road tune and up and down pipe and stock exhaust, just about 325, i could go for more but dont want to risk blowing the 5eat till i do the valve body upgrade.

 

Fyi.. you're not stage-2 if you have an upgraded turbo..

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This might help. the 52 car had a stock tmic fwiw. Sea level cool air 93octE10 blah blah blah

 

 

http://www.brentuning.com/dyno/graph.php?gb=0&hp=1&torque=1&rpm=1&sl=1&sln=1&sat=0&cb=0&dgr=1&smm=0&sg=1&runid1=25&rgb1=&runid2=15&rgb2=

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Why focus on the numbers, then? Why not instead focus on what's needed? You need a tmic if you don't already have one, and you might as well get the fuel pump. You're not going to flow enough through the 40 to utilize the headers or intake. If you're targeting 300whp, a 40 won't get you there. Plus, in order to get close you are pushing more boost than your turbo would like to see.. did you read the turbo wiki thread?

 

It's hard to focus on anything but numbers when I don't have a VF52 on my car to really feel it. I'm not going for any magical number, because if I wanted 300whp all I have to do is find the right dyno.

 

I've just seen a lot of guys posting up 40 numbers what would lead one to believe that it's an extremely capable turbo compared to the 52 on a stock fuel system, so I thought I'd ask for individual's thoughts and experiences, rather than focus on the numbers. That's all.

 

 

And thanks NRW, I searched a bit and never came across a comparison on the same dyno. The 52 is on stock injectors, correct?

Edited by DansSpace
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Yessir stock fuel. The lack of a aftermarket intercooler is holding it back a bit along with a EBCS.

 

Both on the same dyno, though different days. Both are 5mt's and actually wagons now that I think of it lol

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It's not just the end result, it's the way they make power. The VF40 may make say 260 whp and 280 wtq, but it will die off in the high rpms. You get that initial punch and it tapers. A VF52, or BNR16g which I am installing, will make the same power and more, and they won't die off. It will be a nice, continuous pull. Boost will taper slightly on the higher rpms due to the stock fuel system, but it will far out power the VF40.

 

It's about the power under the curve, and the VF40 can't compare. It peaks quickly and dies off, a VF52 or BNR 16 peak quick and maintain power. A maxed out VF40 would lose a race to the others since if they had the same power it would taper.

Edited by Serb Legacy GT
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It's hard to focus on anything but numbers when I don't have a VF52 on my car to really feel it. I'm not going for any magical number, because if I wanted 300whp all I have to do is find the right dyno.

 

I've just seen a lot of guys posting up 40 numbers what would lead one to believe that it's an extremely capable turbo compared to the 52 on a stock fuel system, so I thought I'd ask for individual's thoughts and experiences, rather than focus on the numbers. That's all.

 

 

And thanks NRW, I searched a bit and never came across a comparison on the same dyno. The 52 is on stock injectors, correct?

 

My point was just that hp numbers are deceiving.. there may be guys with 40s putting down 52 numbers, but I'm not sure you can expect reliability..

 

Why push a small turbo so hard when you can push another turbo to the same power level without stressing it?

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My point was just that hp numbers are deceiving.. there may be guys with 40s putting down 52 numbers, but I'm not sure you can expect reliability..

 

Why push a small turbo so hard when you can push another turbo to the same power level without stressing it?

 

Oh, I'm definitely leaning towards the 52 as it is anyways.

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Get yourself a fuel pump if you haven't already. DW65c is nice, GRB STi item also is plenty.
Obligatory '[URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/2008-gh8-238668.html?t=238668"]build thread[/URL]' Increased capacity to 2.7 liters, still turbo, but no longer need spark plugs.
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Bullet-proofing your stock TMIC will certainly suffice for a VF52 setup--you'll likely see very little gain from going with an aftermarket unit, maybe a bit more if you go process west but I haven't seen a direct comparison back-to-back. Front mount will likely net you a bit more at the expense of additional piping and hassle.

"Bullet-proof" your OEM TMIC! <<Buy your kit here>>

 

Not currently in stock :(

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Bullet-proofing your stock TMIC will certainly suffice for a VF52 setup--you'll likely see very little gain from going with an aftermarket unit, maybe a bit more if you go process west but I haven't seen a direct comparison back-to-back. Front mount will likely net you a bit more at the expense of additional piping and hassle.

 

I'm planning to bulletproof mine (Thanks BMB) in prep for a vf52. As my car sits right now, I'm pulling roughly 240g/s with a stg 2 tune on a vf40. I know its fairly inaccurate to base hp from g/s, but its the only estimate I have. That said, I should be putting down somewhere close to 270whp.

 

If you're planning a turbo upgrade, you should make sure your engine can handle it by buttoning down all of the failure points through the system. IE the tmic (will leak over 17psi), bpv (may or may not leak at 52 boost levels), fuel pump (so you don't risk running lean by not being able to supply enough fuel).

 

I've also heard the turbo inlet should be swapped out, as well as oil supply lines, and an EBC will help control boost.

 

You can upgrade the turbo without doing these things, but you risk boost leaks, etc, and run the risk of detonation. IMO, its not worth the risk.

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I've also heard the turbo inlet should be swapped out, as well as oil supply lines, and an EBC will help control boost.

If the stock inlet isn't torn there's nothing by gained by fitting a new one, and aftermarket items are merely tougher than the OE parts. They don't add any performance benefits.

 

Any competent tuner can get as smooth a boost curve with the OE solenoid and restrictor pill setup as with a 3-port, on this size turbo and on the sort of boost pressures you run on gasoline. A 3-port is nice to have, and it really helps when you're learning to tune boost, but it's far from being a necessity at this point.

 

Gee, if only someone would put the effort into making a list of supporting mods needed for any given size of turbo...

Obligatory '[URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/2008-gh8-238668.html?t=238668"]build thread[/URL]' Increased capacity to 2.7 liters, still turbo, but no longer need spark plugs.
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If the stock inlet isn't torn there's nothing by gained by fitting a new one, and aftermarket items are merely tougher than the OE parts. They don't add any performance benefits.

 

Understood; I'm planning to swap it out for peace of mind. When I go VF52 I want to make sure that my system can take it without issues. I'd hate to drop the cash on a turbo upgrade then chase failures for the next month or so.. More of a preventative approach.

 

Any competent tuner can get as smooth a boost curve with the OE solenoid and restrictor pill setup as with a 3-port, on this size turbo and on the sort of boost pressures you run on gasoline. A 3-port is nice to have, and it really helps when you're learning to tune boost, but it's far from being a necessity at this point.

 

Noted; At what point is the EBCS required?

 

Gee, if only someone would put the effort into making a list of supporting mods needed for any given size of turbo...

 

Hence, my question to the OP in the first thread, "did you read the turbo wiki?" There is a TON of useful information there when it comes to questions like these.

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I am running this setup with BP TMIC, EL headers, and cattless exhaust. Mild tune at 260 whp and 300tq. I plan on upgrading fuel delivery this summer. It's a nice setup. Quick spool.

 

What was your setup on the stock turbo before you went to the vf52? How does it feel now compared to before?

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I guess you have missed my posts about my vf52.

 

On a Mustang dyno, it made 280whp and 300ftlbs. The car feels stronger then those numbers. I don't really care as its a DD and very fun to drive.

 

I now have over 12,000 miles on the new EJ257. I have stock fueling, catless up/dp IPR tmic.

 

With the new Koni's and Epic springs the car has very body movement in 1st gear when I give it throttle. Before the car would really lift the body on the shocks. It would even lift the body on the 3rd to 4th gear under WOT with the vf52.

 

Mike Kinsman of http://www.tuningalliance.com did my tune. The car will get over 25mpg on the highway, as long as I keep my foot out of it.

 

Anyone in thier right mind would not put a vf40 back on one of these cars.

305,600miles 5/2012 ej257 short block, 8/2011 installed VF52 turbo, @20.8psi, 280whp, 300ftlbs. (SOLD).  CHECK your oil, these cars use it.

 

Engine Build - Click Here

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When I go VF52 I want to make sure that my system can take it without issues. I'd hate to drop the cash on a turbo upgrade then chase failures for the next month or so..

 

Noted; At what point is the EBCS required?

Note the turbo inlet tube is in very light vacuum and sees no boost at all. It is only going to collapse if you have a very large turbo capable of producing a lot of pressure drop across the air filter, or the filter is basically clogged that the same happens.

 

The point at which a 3-port is 'required' depends on a lot of things.

 

Long answer: (skip below for simple answer)

 

I love them on turbos 16G and up but I'm a real stickler for fine boost control. Talented tuners can pull off tight boost control on bleed-type setups on even quite large turbos.

A conventional pill setup will however run out of control authority at higher boost pressures. As a general rule of thumb your wastegate actuator should be able to hold boost pressure to about double what it's opening pressure is. IOW, if you a stock 10psi actuator it should be able to hold about 20psi. The problem is that on turbos with restrictive hotsides (small turbines or exhaust housings) you can easily run the turbine close to it's choke point during spool or approaching peak revs. Very high exhaust gas backpressure will 'help' the actuator bleed boost off by pushing on the gate. IOW you might have bled much of the boost pressure away from the actuator via the restrictor pill and solenoid, but boost won't rise any further because EGBP is pushing the wastegate open.

 

You can mitigate these effects by using smaller pills, so that less pressure can reach the actuator and more air can be bled away by the stock 2-port valve, but there's a point at which it gets very difficult indeed to control boost spiking or bouncing up and down. Once at this point you can fit an actuator with a stiffer spring, but note this makes spikes again harder to control. A 3-port on the stock actuator may allow you run at higher boost pressure than via a bleed system as it interrupts boost pressure from reaching the actuator completely. For maximum authority and control, you want to use both a stiffer actuator and a 3-port together.

 

Simple answer:

 

Stock turbo at modest boost, stock BCS is probably okay. Upgrade to 3-port if n00b tuner.

 

Bigger turbo or modest turbo at high boost, upgrade to 3-port first, and then stiffer actuator if that doesn't get the job done.

 

Bigger turbo and high boost, if you don't already know the answer ask your tuner what he wants. He's the one who has to work with it, you're just paying the bills. ;)

Obligatory '[URL="http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/2008-gh8-238668.html?t=238668"]build thread[/URL]' Increased capacity to 2.7 liters, still turbo, but no longer need spark plugs.
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What was your setup on the stock turbo before you went to the vf52? How does it feel now compared to before?

 

I cheated and bought it this way, however, when I was shopping for LGTs, I drove several lightly modded VF40 cars and there is a very noticeable difference. I should say VERY. An extra 50 whp and 80 ft lbs of tq does wonders to this car over a Stage 1 tune on a 40.

Edited by channoff
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