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-   -   Supercharging? (https://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=173646)

Flyboy888 11-03-2011 03:18 PM

Supercharging?
 
Anyone thought of it? I hear the ej251 doesn't do too bad with stock boost (8psi) one turbocharging is a bit complicated, so has anyone thought of supercharging?

BrandonJ 2001 GT Limited 11-03-2011 03:38 PM

Supercharging would require as much as a turbo in a way. You have to find somewhere to run a belt off the crank to the SC, then still run an IC and piping. You'd still need a piggyback controller to map the injector and fuel changes. Upgrade fuel pump especially if you think you can run 8psi.

Turbo kits for the 00-04 Leggy only run 5-6 psi.

Either one is a recipe for failure if not done right. And it sounds like if you want to run 8psi on stock EJ251 internals...be prepared to set aside $4k for another engine. We dont have Civics.

SurlyOldManMN 11-03-2011 04:10 PM

I don't think it's going to be any different. I would expect supercharging to be more complicated if anything. You already have exhaust to smack the hot side of a turbo, you don't already have a convenient pully just sitting around waiting to tie the crank shaft to a supercharger.

The rest of it is basic forced induction. Six of one/half dozen of the other.

Flyboy888 11-03-2011 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrandonJ 2001 GT Limited (Post 3620515)
Turbo kits for the 00-04 Leggy only run 5-6 psi.

So wait they actually make kits for our cars??? and 5-6psi being "safer" than 8psi, wouldn't you need to get another exhaust manifold? to mount the turbo too

Flyboy888 11-03-2011 04:36 PM

If i did any forced induction, id prefer to do turbo, but my assumsion was always that it would be more difficult. But if not i might look into a kit. Any links?

L_C99 11-03-2011 04:42 PM

The only way supercharging is easier is because you don't have to mess with exhaust. That is it.
The only kit that comes to my mind is the AVO turbo kit, though there may be others.
http://www.avoturboworld.com/avoshop...25-c-1_87.html

wolflegacy 11-03-2011 04:59 PM

the process itself is relatively the same for both
the only difference would be that a supercharger is a lot safer than a turbo on na cars because you don't have the risk of detonation
on a turbo a boos spike is more common and it could blow your engine up but the supercharger is fizically attached to the crank there for it eliminates all the chances
i say supercharge it if you want to keep the stock internals or upgrade internals and get a turbo
i am also looking in to supercharging next year
the eaton m62 of the c230 merc is the best fit for out cars and it doesn't require inter cooler for that low boost

01rs25 11-03-2011 05:41 PM

You guys looking to add forced induction to your 3rd gens will get gobs of info over on RS25.com.

All RS' used some sort of SOHC/ DOHC configuration that the majority of you guys are looking to boost. Check the Forced induction forums. Skidd has a step by step guide with pictures on how to supercharge an N/A 2.5.

BrandonJ 2001 GT Limited 11-03-2011 08:34 PM

I was thinking of the AVO kit....It's something like $4500. BUT...if you can grab a stock TD-04 and swap in a MBC to regulate @ 5-6 psi, stock WRX manifold, up-pipe, down-pipe, notch your own crossmember, E-Bay FMIC, and tap your own oil and water lines...then add a 5th injector and PP6 or SMT-8 piggyback controller...you could get away for $500-1000 at best. There's a 4th gen with the AVO kit pushing about 6psi laying down numbers similar or better than a stock GT.

***Currently putting down 201whp at around 5750rpm. The torque curve is not completely smooth so there are 2 peaks. First peak is at 3550rpm with around 195wtq and at about 4400 rpm it is 205wtq.

I'm running about 6psi, my tuner said it goes up to 6.2. ****



and...I thought all forced induction had a risk of detonation if you werent tuned right.

Flyboy888 11-04-2011 01:28 AM

What would the 5th injector be for?

Flyboy888 11-04-2011 01:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolflegacy (Post 3620609)
i am also looking in to supercharging next year
the eaton m62 of the c230 merc is the best fit for out cars and it doesn't require inter cooler for that low boost

I was thinking the m62 as well or the one from the older grand prix GTP. I believe its the m90? Not sure tho.

itsme 11-04-2011 01:40 AM

[QUOTE=BrandonJ



and...I thought all forced induction had a risk of detonation if you werent tuned right.[/QUOTE]
They do. The motor doesn't care how the air is compressed. You can have the same problems either way when it comes to knock.

BrandonJ 2001 GT Limited 11-04-2011 06:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flyboy888 (Post 3620979)
What would the 5th injector be for?


So you dont go lean under boost. The PP6 and SMT-8 have an output that fires a 5th injector when it needs it.

BAC5.2 11-04-2011 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolflegacy (Post 3620609)
the only difference would be that a supercharger is a lot safer than a turbo on na cars because you don't have the risk of detonation
on a turbo a boos spike is more common and it could blow your engine up but the supercharger is fizically attached to the crank there for it eliminates all the chances

This is stupid. Why would someone thank this post?

Don't let your boos spike!

BrandonJ 2001 GT Limited 11-04-2011 07:07 AM

Another thing I just thought about. Both the Cooper S and Cobalt SS started with superchargers and went to a turbo in the later years and current models. IMO, if the SC is/was a great idea on a 4cyl....why didn't those two cars stay SC?

Dodik 11-04-2011 07:08 AM

look here to turbo your car
http://sl-i.net/FORUM/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=22065

or here to supercharge it
http://sl-i.net/FORUM/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14362&start=0

wolflegacy 11-04-2011 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flyboy888 (Post 3620980)
I was thinking the m62 as well or the one from the older grand prix GTP. I believe its the m90? Not sure tho.

the m90 will not fit under your hood without modifications its too big

Quote:

Originally Posted by BAC5.2 (Post 3621112)
Don't let your boos spike!

i am sorry i meant "boost" if that is what bothers you

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrandonJ 2001 GT Limited (Post 3621117)
Another thing I just thought about. Both the Cooper S and Cobalt SS started with superchargers and went to a turbo in the later years and current models. IMO, if the SC is/was a great idea on a 4cyl....why didn't those two cars stay SC?

because when you supercharge an engine it is also uses power form the engines crank therefore actually taking away some of your hp
and the size of the supercharger itself is limited to the size of your engine
but a turbo because it uses only your exhaust gases it doesn't take away any of the produced hp and you can put it as big as you want providing you have strong internals and will not mind the lag from the bigger turbo)

the reason i see that supercharging is better for our cars is because at the low boost that the cars will run sc is actually more powerful
all the power comes to you immediately of the line not like the turbo where you have to keep it over 3000rpm to get the benefits
sc have no lag

BAC5.2 11-04-2011 10:27 AM

What bothered me was that you were wrong.

You are also wrong to think SC's have no lag, and that "all that power comes immediately off the line". It doesn't. SC's have boost proportional to engine RPM up to a bypass pressure. You don't have positive manifold pressure at idle.

9 times out of 10, turbocharging is the more efficient way to make power. This falls apart at the extreme high end, but holds mostly true for your average car.

If you want to do it cheaply, do what BrandonJ said. Buy some used parts from a WRX (headers, uppipe, turbo, downpipe), then have other various pipes put together to get it to work. Notch the crossmember, and have at it. You can drill or cut the tips off of your injectors, or run newer injectors from whatever model matches your car (either top or side feed) to get the flow you need without needing a 5th injector (which is ghetto). Tune it with a PP6 or build a Mega Squirt (I'd do the latter).

Run ~6psi max on a TD04 and you'll probably make in the 180 whp range without MUCH risk.

Keep in mind, the car won't be FAST by any stretch. It'll still be slow, but it'll probably keep you entertained.

Dodik 11-04-2011 10:57 AM

totally agree with what bac said boosting a stock n/a motor will only do two things. give you those mad props from all of your friends and placebo effect will make you think its fast and shit.

sunny_d 11-05-2011 09:54 AM

The reason sc are more popular with V8's from what I've seen, is, they are easier due to the exhaust. Also since the boost is proportional to RPM's they can run bigger pulleys due to more existing torque, and have "more" boost at lower rpms. Both can cause detonation if you run lean. Turbo's are better on smaller engines, because they naturally don't have much power on the low end, and usually run higher rpms for peak power, which works great with turbo spooling and lag time. I've driven a sc Pontiac gtp that was all done up, and he even had a little lag. Nothing like my fp 3065 on my talon though! Haha

Would write more but in a deer stand and my hands cold

Flyboy888 11-05-2011 11:38 AM

Ahhh ok, tis a good point

Osei 11-05-2011 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sunny_d (Post 3622217)
Would write more but in a deer stand and my hands cold

May you have good fortune!

O.

BrandonJ 2001 GT Limited 11-06-2011 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BAC5.2 (Post 3621370)
You can drill or cut the tips off of your injectors, or run newer injectors from whatever model matches your car (either top or side feed) to get the flow you need without needing a 5th injector (which is ghetto).


AVO puts a 5th injector on their kits...http://www.avoturboworld.com/avoshop...f2kso3v8jchrb0

So I guess the maker of the kit we're trying to model is ghetto and hacking your injectors isn't?

BAC5.2 11-06-2011 06:29 PM

Correct. A 5th injector before the throttle body is ghetto. Modding stock injectors isn't.

BrandonJ 2001 GT Limited 11-06-2011 07:15 PM

:facepalm:

I'd trust AVO who has put the kit on a dyno and spent $$$$ in R&D vs drilled out unmatched injectors from someone's drill press :lol:

BrandonJ 2001 GT Limited 11-06-2011 08:25 PM

Also, if the 5th injector is so ghetto...then why did Subaru themselves put on on the 1994 WRX RA?

http://www.type-ra.co.uk/vB/showthread.php?t=4891

BAC5.2 11-07-2011 04:32 AM

I'm not suggesting a simple drill-out and toss-in, that would be stupid.

When you buy DW Injectors, or PE injectors, or Perrin injectors, you are getting nothing other than modified stock injectors with varying levels of flow and pattern matching (DW, for example, sends you injectors flow matched to, typically, 1%. Perrin used to send out modified, but unmatched and untested injectors).

The 5th injector in the RA wasn't used on the road car, and it wasn't before the throttle body. It was present, but never used. That same car used a step-colder spark plug in the #4 cylinder.

I'd use a set of matched and verified modified stock injectors, or a set of take-off higher flow injectors from a different model (whichever ones fit) instead of a 5th injector pre-throttle body. Modified injectors have been dyno-tested plenty. Lots of 500+whp guys on Nasioc run modified injectors. I did on my first-gen Turbo, to the tune of just under 400whp and just over 400ft-lbs.

Flyboy888 11-07-2011 04:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dodik (Post 3621119)

After seeing this I'm now back to turbo interest lol. Anybody know bout the various kits their are? The avo kit seems to be best bang for your buck, but $3800 is a lot of buck.

BAC5.2 11-07-2011 04:59 AM

Just do it yourself with OE WRX parts. Cut a notch in the crossmember, use a WRX manifold, uppipe, turbo, downpipe, intercooler (top mount if you trade hoods with a Baja Turbo, or front mount if not), then tune it with a Mega Squirt or PP6. You can EASILY come in under $2k if you do the work yourself.

Flyboy888 11-07-2011 05:09 AM

Right, like the other guy did. What about cuting the hood and getting a wrx scoop? I figure the scoop would cover the cuts. Figure its cheaper than a $300-400 Baja hood (which I would prefer). And then, what all taps would I need to do? Like for oil and whatnot.

01rs25 11-07-2011 05:10 AM

You'll also need something to keep boost in check. I'd recommend picking up a wastegate actuator from a vf-11 and a MBC.

01rs25 11-07-2011 05:12 AM

Oil feed can come from the galley plug on the back of he block or you can tee off the factory oil pressure sensor at the front. You can drain it back in the pan.

Coolant lines could either get t'd off from the heater hoses or the Tb.

BAC5.2 11-07-2011 05:13 AM

You've done the turbo RS, right 01?

01rs25 11-07-2011 05:28 AM

At one point. Long long ago.

01rs25 11-07-2011 10:34 AM

Just for reference heres a pretty comprehensive write up.

http://www.rs25.com/forums/newreply....eply&p=2523394


Quote:

This is a work-in-progress guide. You'll need to do lots more research on various forums before attempting this project.

Important Note: This guide was done on a 97' Legacy, so TMIC fitment will be different.

If you ever decide to turbo your DOHC engine, this is probably the simplest way to do it besides getting a kit, which are rare, and probably more expensive. For you SOHC guys, the whole thing is basically the same, but you'll need to extend your up-pipe to clear the back of the SOHC head, as well as bend your FPR.

IMPORTANT: Engine Management

If you have a 2001 or newer car, you should either buy a WRX, swap, or use open-source tuning to run your FI setup.

Here's the deal. If you use 91 octane, a good fuel pump, and have a good intercooler, you can run 5 PSI without engine management. However, any more boost than that requires an engine management system. This stuff has been covered a lot before, but I'll outline it. If you have a pre 2001 car, here are some options that people have had success with:

Piggybacks:
RalliTEK PP6
Greddy Emanage
Greddy Emanage Ultimate (I use this)
Apexi S-AFC
AEM F/IC

Standalones:
Megasquirt >>> http://www.rs25.com/forums/f105/t135220-diy-megasquirt-inside-stock-ecu-case.html
AEM

The limit of the stock 280cc injectors is about 6 PSI, so if you want to run more than that, you'll need larger injectors, such as blue and pink WRX/STi top feeds, or yellow STi 04-06 side feeds.





So.

First off, here's a list of parts I bought, about 2 weeks in advance of my planned install weekend.
I got a bunch of this stuff from eBay, so I'll copy the titles in so they're easier to find if you ever decide to do this.

Turbo Oil Feed line Kit M10 x 1.50mm TD04 TD05 TD06
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p...V2/oilline.jpg


IMPREZA WRX/STI 1P EJ25 STAINLESS STEEL HEADER MANIFOLD

I know for sure that this one will clear the N/A water pump, but the OEM WRX manifold will not clear it.

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p...0V2/header.jpg

Reducer Silicone Hose Coupler 90 degree 2.5" to 2.25"
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p...20V2/elbow.gif

SUBARU HKS BLOW OFF VALVE BOV ADAPTER FLANGE

Obviously, you'll need an HKS-type valve for this, but you can use any BOV you want, just realize that there's not a ton of space to work with.

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p...2/bovplate.jpg

02-07 Subaru WRX STi Top Mount Intercooler Y Pipe Kit
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p...0V2/y-pipe.jpg

(ACE) 3/4" to 1/2" brass "tee"
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p...2/IMG_0856.jpg


OTHER PARTS:

-Turbo crossmember w/ turbo swaybar (N/A ones don't fit)
-Downpipe of your choice 02-07 WRX fitment
-Catback of your choice (or open stock WRX downpipe, sounds great and is cheap)
-2" straight silicone coupler
-2.5" - 3" silicone reducer
-2.5" "U" bend of aluminum pipe
-02-07 WRX TMIC (I used an 02, but the 06-07 fit much better)
-Turbo of your choice (I used a TD04 just to get it up and running, a VF39 will come soon)
-A 90 degree, 3/8" brass hose fitting for the drain to the valve cover
-2x 1/2" brass hose fitting for breathers/IACV/PCV
-Blow-off valve of your choice (I used an SSQV)
-2.75" straight silicone coupler (for the IC-TB connection)
-8 feet of 1/2" rubber hose
-2 feet of 5/8" rubber hose
- Lots of hose clamps
-More things I'm forgetting, and will add later



Since my car is a daily driver, I planned out how I was going to do the install. Here's the basic outline of the main install. The first two days can be done any time, provided you have N/A headers, like Borlas, that will clear the turbo crossmember so you can drive around.

Day 1: Install turbo crossmember
Day 2: Tap valve cover, trim firewall and test fit intercooler
Day 3: Install everything!
Day 4: Repair small leaks, random problems, make everything look nice
Day 5: Tune

That's obviously a rough guide, but it gives you an idea of the time it takes to finish this sort of a project if your car is a DD.

The first thing you should do is install your turbo crossmember. Any 91-94 Legacy turbo crossmember will be a direct bolt-on. This is a pretty big install, so plan to do this ahead of time. An important note: The stock N/A headers won't clear the crossmember, so plan on using a set of Borla replicas (they clear the turbo crossmember), or just having your car offline while you put everything in. I don't have any pictures of this install, but just know that it involves unbolting the following:

-engine mounts
-steering rack
-both control arms
-swaybar
-crossmember itself
-U-joint to the steering wheel

Here's what it looks like.

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p...2/IMG_0797.jpg




Next thing to do is tap the valve cover for the turbo's oil drain. I used the 90 degree fitting, drilled a hole, then screwed it in with teflon tape. A rubber stopper went in the hose end so it wouldn't leak while I waited for other parts to come in. I used a 3/4" drill bit, then just screwed the fitting in.

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p...609_110611.jpg
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p...609_111326.jpg
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p...609_111318.jpg


The next step is really only necessary if you have an 02-05 intercooler. The 06-07 TMIC's are much shorter an don't have fitment issues. Basically, this step involves grinding away part of the lip on the firewall, under the brake lines. I don't think there;s anything really structural, and grinding away a bit won't do much to weaken the unibody.

Before, the firewall area looks like this:

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p...2/IMG_0790.jpg

And after a bunch of cutting, grinding, and test fitting, it will look something like this:

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p...2/IMG_0792.jpg

Make sure and spray on some clearcoat or something to keep the bare metal from rusting.

You'll also need to shorten you clutch reservoir. This is easy, just take it off, cut it, deburr, then reinstall.

Or, you can get a sweet JDM offset reservoir from a JDM BC Legacy. They're kinda hard to find:

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p...d/IMG_1851.jpg

You will most likely need to trim off the throttle body and outlet of the intercooler for more clearance. Just trim 1/4" off each piece, but mak sure you have enough metal to get a coupler on there.



------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Main install:

If you have access to a lift, or better yet, a pit, use it. Otherwise just put the car on jack stands.

The most time consuming thing to do is re-routing the PCV, breather, and IACV lines. I don't have pictures of this, because I'm sure there's a better way to do it, but you'll need to get a T as close to the crankcase vent as possible, and make it very low, and flush to the rest of the stuff under the IACV. I made one line go under the passenger side intake manifold, looping up behind the power steering reservoir, then another under the throttle body, then around to T in with the breathers lines.

I ran the breather lines on top of the engine, and used the stock T connector to combine them.

For the IACV, I ran a short bit of hose to a 90" 3/4" barb elbow, which runs up to a fitting on the intake tube.

Here's what my hoses look like, as an idea.

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p...2/IMG_0819.jpg


Now, you can jack up the engine a bit, bend the power steering lines out of the way a bit, and install the manifold, using new gaskets. If you can, get ahold of one of the turbo suspending mounts, and bolt it on:

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p...2/IMG_0814.jpg



A 90 degree elbow is REQUIRED for you oil drain line; if you don't install one below the drain on the turbo, it will kink and you'll blow the seals of the turbo.



Then, wrap the line with aluminum tape, or something to keep the line safe from the heat of the up-pipe. Run the line like so:

Don't forget to clamp it and stuff.

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p...2/IMG_0811.jpg

Next up to tackle: the coolant lines. I tapped into the heater core lines, using the 2 3/4" to 1/2" tees.

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p...2/IMG_0857.jpg

On the turbo, you need to cut the feed line in the middle so you can flip the top line back so it aims toward the firewall.

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p...2/IMG_0852.jpg

The, run the 1/2" line around.

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p...2/IMG_0859.jpg

Now, install your oil-feed lines. You can either use high-temp thread sealant for the fittings, or teflon tape. Either will work.

There's a number of different ways to arrange your 1/8" brass tee, but I made mine like this, so it won't hit the alternator.

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p...2/IMG_0815.jpg

01rs25 11-07-2011 10:35 AM

Quote:


Next, bolt up the downpipe of your choice.


Here's what you'll have on the intake side:

You'll need to trim the 2.25-2.5" intake coupler to let it clear the intake manifold. The 2.5" intake tube can also be cut to fit at this point. Drill the holes for the brass fittings, and install them as well.

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p...609_214244.jpg


As you can see, the stock WRX y-pipe won't line up, so we have to extend it to meet the turbo. I wouldn't advise cutting the stock y-pipe and trying to make it seal with a coupler. Just get an aftermarket y-pipe, trust me.

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p...609_214921.jpg

On the pressure side, you have to extend the y-pipe downward to meet the turbo outlet, using the extra 2" coupler and piece of pipe.

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p...622_142134.jpg

You should have something like this at this point.

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p...2/IMG_0805.jpg

Here's everything else mocked up:

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p...2/IMG_0804.jpg

For your BOV/BPV, just bolt it on. My SSQV flange was a close fit:

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p...2/IMG_0793.jpg


At this point, you're basically done! It's just a matter of clamping everything in place, and testing it out! I know I missed some important information, so I'll try and add it in as I remember. Don't forget to get an exhaust made/bolted on.


Here's my finished product:

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p...2/IMG_0835.jpg


Happy boosting.


Update #1:

I swapped out my IACV for an EJ22t version, which has a nifty 90 degree inlet that makes it way easier to route. You phase II RS guys don't have to worry about this.

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p...630_173932.jpg

I found that the EJ22t has a one-way valve in the little plate behind it that prevents boost from leaking. It swaps right over to the 25D manifold.

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p...630_173211.jpg


Update #2

I really hated how the intercooler sits really far back, and has to be all crooked due to the EGR valve.

So, I did a couple modifications to make it sit nicer.

First was chopping down the throttle body. I never use cruise control, so I just took all the pieces off the threaded rods (in order), the ran a die to create new threads, cut off the excess of the rods with a grinder, and put everything back together.

On the throttle body itself, I just lopped off about an ~1.5 inches, then cut/dremeled out around the chunk of metal that holds the throttle plate arms.

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p...2/IMG_1136.jpg

Comparison with stock throttle body to show differences:

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p...2/IMG_1137.jpg
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p...2/IMG_1135.jpg
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p...2/IMG_1138.jpg

For the EGR valve, I just elongated the hole on the bottom towards the valve, then sliced open the one on the top so it can sit lower. Then, I ground down the metal where it would otherwise cover up the openings so as to not reduce flow.

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p...2/IMG_1183.jpg


01rs25 11-07-2011 10:37 AM

And for those wanting to continue with the idea on supercharging. Check out Skidds threads.

http://www.rs25.com/forums/f7/t92852...d-diy-how.html

http://www.rs25.com/forums/f7/t10710...ur-subaru.html

Both are pretty comprehensive and have everything you need to make/ purchase and run.

ahcLegacy 11-07-2011 10:57 AM

wouldn't the raptors kits work for the map based cars?

http://www.rs25.com/forums/f14/t9708...-system-s.html

Flyboy888 11-07-2011 01:31 PM

Yep that's the turbo write up I've been looking at, I'm thinkin I'm gonna hop on eBay and see if I can get a parts list price goin.

01rs25 11-07-2011 01:47 PM

So your going turbo rather then the supercharger? Have you looked at the 2 links I posted?


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