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Legacy GT vs Infiniti G35x vs Volvo S60R


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These are (personally) my cars to ponder: Legacy GT Infiniti G35x Volvo S60R I have sat in both Volvo and Infiniti and they are very very nice cars inside. Incentives are the Volvo and the Subi are turbo cars and modifiable to any extent desired or none. Also I already have a WRX for the last 3 years and I know Subaru well. I had a Volvo before but not a turbo but I am concerned on reliability. Cheers Nick
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All should be reliable. The Subaru will be faster than the others, with a better AWD system. And don't forget that the Volvo R cars, even though they have three suspension settings, have only one useful one (the middle one). The G35 and Volvo will also be more expensive than the Legacy GT, by the time you match the trim levels, thanks to the GT's coming with an impressive array of standard equipment. The GT will also be lighter and more nimble. The Volvo and G35 both have 6-speed manuals, and HIDs, I believe. I really like the interior of the Volvo R cars, too, and those seats are fabulous. For my money, I would still pick a GT. Kevin
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don't forget to include the cost of parts/repairs. i had a volvo once - reliability was only average in terms of frequency of repairs, and they never came cheap. i've owned several subie's - more reliable and cheaper to fix, cheaper parts, when required. the subie is the value deal here. when car and driver did its comparo on the wrx it had to use 2 cars that cost 15k more each - 65% more expensive!! when it does a comparo on the 2005 legacy gt, i predict the comparitors will be the 2 cars you name, the audi a6 2.7t and perhaps the bmw 330xi again, though it's smaller. and they'll be 7-15k more expensive, comparably equipped, and won't perform as well. bang for the buck- no comparison!
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Great competitors these are. Really, it depends on what your needs are. What are your priorities? The Legacy is definitely going to be the smallest of the three on the interior. I think that the best quality interior is going to be the Volvo. The fastest is going to be the Legacy, but it's going to probably have the worst fuel economy. While it is turbocharged, I would be nervous about modding the Legacy GT with this SportShift tranny. I'm not convinced that it will be able to handle extra power. I would feel most comfortable with the G35 for modding. There are not going to be any superchargers for the sedan, but I see no reason why the upcoming turbo kits won't be able to work on the sedans. The VQ30 engine is a beast and can easily handle 500hp which is very possible with a turbo setup. I think that the extra weight would be negated at that point. The big advantage to the Legacy is PRICE. It is my belief that a Legacy LTD will be available for about $28-29,000. That's a pretty solid discount compared to the others.
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[quote name='gtguy']All should be reliable. The Subaru will be faster than the others, with a better AWD system. And don't forget that the Volvo R cars, even though they have three suspension settings, have only one useful one (the middle one). The G35 and Volvo will also be more expensive than the Legacy GT, by the time you match the trim levels, thanks to the GT's coming with an impressive array of standard equipment. The GT will also be lighter and more nimble. The Volvo and G35 both have 6-speed manuals, and HIDs, I believe. I really like the interior of the Volvo R cars, too, and those seats are fabulous. For my money, I would still pick a GT. Kevin[/quote] both Volvo and G35 are more expensive to begin with. They seem to offer better warranty. Infiniti has a fabulous quality reputation. G35 has a supercharger to be added for a price of 6-7 k which brings the hp to over 350 at the wheels (check freshalloy.com) Volvo already has a chip (actually a flash update for more power). Volvo suspension actually (per the sweedspeed groups) the track setting is quite good. On the other hand warranty is out the door if one mods. Subi has a vast array of bolt on parts and more will come in a a price less that the other two. G35x does not offer a 6sp. HIDs are standard with the S60R having bi- xenons. Volvo has 4 piston brembos front and rear :o Not as much info on the Legacy since it is not quite out there. Decisions to be made :) thanks for input guys. Nick
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[quote name='PPower']Great competitors these are. Really, it depends on what your needs are. What are your priorities? The Legacy is definitely going to be the smallest of the three on the interior. I think that the best quality interior is going to be the Volvo. The fastest is going to be the Legacy, but it's going to probably have the worst fuel economy. While it is turbocharged, I would be nervous about modding the Legacy GT with this SportShift tranny. I'm not convinced that it will be able to handle extra power. I would feel most comfortable with the G35 for modding. There are not going to be any superchargers for the sedan, but I see no reason why the upcoming turbo kits won't be able to work on the sedans. The VQ30 engine is a beast and can easily handle 500hp which is very possible with a turbo setup. I think that the extra weight would be negated at that point. The big advantage to the Legacy is PRICE. It is my belief that a Legacy LTD will be available for about $28-29,000. That's a pretty solid discount compared to the others.[/quote] Are you saying that the Legacy does not come with a manual tranny? By the way the G35x is much more like a rear wheel drive car than the S60R. I am guessing the Subi is 50/50? or like the STi? cheers Nick
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On the S60R...there is a fair amount (too much!) of mechanical/technical troubles with this car for numerous owners (swedespeed site). For a car that is pushing $43,000 plus, that is just not acceptable to me. I really like the S60R, but I want exceptional reliability in whatever I drive (my IS300 is absolutely flawless..."02" model with 53,000 miles) and I feel that the S60R needs more time to perfect...sad to say. :roll:
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AutoWeek has a very positive review of the G35X in the most current issue, while noting that the car is automatic only, which removes it from my shopping list (not that it was ever on it...no wagon). And suspension-wise, the Volvo apparently plows more than a Zamboni. Kevin
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titsataki, I didn't mean to imply that the Legacy didn't come with a manual. I just assumed that you would be looking at automatics since your other two options ONLY come with automatics. As for the supercharger, the ProCharger and Stillen's supercharger both only work on the coupe. Check on freshalloy, but the last times I was on there, this was still an issue, and nobody had plans to make a supercharger for the sedan. ProCharger passed on the sedan for R&D and went to the FX35 for the next model. I think it was something about a mechanical drive belt? that was different on the sedan, and they didn't feel that it was worth engineering around whatever difference it was. Also, it was the 350z's that were getting 350whp with the ProCharger. For some reason, the G35 coupes weren't making nearly that much, but maybe they have since done some tuning to figure out what caused the power loss.
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Re the S60R, its actually very neutral. Its a straight line the majority of the torque goes to the front wheels for stability and fuel efficiency, but torque distribution is dynamic mid-corner. Entering a corner the majority of the torque is sent to the rear, then in mid corner its 50/50, and exiting a corner more torque is sent to the front for stability. I won't bother reposting the reviews, but a good number of magazines found oversteer to be the predominant trait on the track when the DTSC is turned off (especially on the V70R). The one thing that could definately be improved upon would be a bit more feel from the steering wheel, but the chassis itself communicates quite well. In terms of problems, they've been minor.. some suspension noises and hopping, and buzzing with the shifter cables. All easily enough fixed by dealers through flash updates and minor parts swaps. I suspect the lack of serious problems with electronics, trannies or engines results in constant whining about the minor stuff. If you want serious problems, go check out the S4 forums, with their grenading clutches, trannies and engines.
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[quote name='PPower']titsataki, I didn't mean to imply that the Legacy didn't come with a manual. I just assumed that you would be looking at automatics since your other two options ONLY come with automatics. As for the supercharger, the ProCharger and Stillen's supercharger both only work on the coupe. Check on freshalloy, but the last times I was on there, this was still an issue, and nobody had plans to make a supercharger for the sedan. ProCharger passed on the sedan for R&D and went to the FX35 for the next model. I think it was something about a mechanical drive belt? that was different on the sedan, and they didn't feel that it was worth engineering around whatever difference it was. Also, it was the 350z's that were getting 350whp with the ProCharger. For some reason, the G35 coupes weren't making nearly that much, but maybe they have since done some tuning to figure out what caused the power loss.[/quote] Nope the S60R is a 6sp manual. The G35[b]x[/b] is auto only. (one of my cons on it :) ) Here is the link for the G35S (sedan making 35x hp at the wheels) [url]http://forums.freshalloy.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB25&Number=67651152&Forum=UBB25&Words=vortech%20&Match=Entire%20Phrase&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Old=1week&Main=67650607&Search=true#Post67651152[/url] This is a 6sp manual sedan. Cheers Nick
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[quote name='wakked1']Re the S60R, its actually very neutral. Its a straight line the majority of the torque goes to the front wheels for stability and fuel efficiency, but torque distribution is dynamic mid-corner. Entering a corner the majority of the torque is sent to the rear, then in mid corner its 50/50, and exiting a corner more torque is sent to the front for stability. I won't bother reposting the reviews, but a good number of magazines found oversteer to be the predominant trait on the track when the DTSC is turned off (especially on the V70R). The one thing that could definately be improved upon would be a bit more feel from the steering wheel, but the chassis itself communicates quite well. In terms of problems, they've been minor.. some suspension noises and hopping, and buzzing with the clutch cable. All easily enough fixed by dealers through flash updates and parts swaps. I suspect the lack of serious problems with electronics, trannies or engines results in constant whining about the minor stuff. If you want serious problems, go check out the S4 forums, with their grenading clutches, trannies and engines.[/quote] Hmmmm...every review I have read of the R cars, say that the first suspension setting is soft and wallowy with plenty of bump steer; the middle setting is the one; the third setting is for track use only (best handling, but uncomfortable for daily use). Kevin
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[quote name='wakked1']Re the S60R, its actually very neutral. Its a straight line the majority of the torque goes to the front wheels for stability and fuel efficiency, but torque distribution is dynamic mid-corner. Entering a corner the majority of the torque is sent to the rear, then in mid corner its 50/50, and exiting a corner more torque is sent to the front for stability. I won't bother reposting the reviews, but a good number of magazines found oversteer to be the predominant trait on the track when the DTSC is turned off (especially on the V70R). The one thing that could definately be improved upon would be a bit more feel from the steering wheel, but the chassis itself communicates quite well. In terms of problems, they've been minor.. some suspension noises and hopping, and buzzing with the clutch cable. All easily enough fixed by dealers through flash updates and parts swaps. I suspect the lack of serious problems with electronics, trannies or engines results in constant whining about the minor stuff. If you want serious problems, go check out the S4 forums, with their grenading clutches, trannies and engines.[/quote] this is what I am hearing as well. People complain because of details anyways and indeed this is a $41-43k car. Also some folks complained that the car does not "really" make 300hp. More like 270-280hp. I saw dyno runs and I simpy compared it to dyno run of an STi on the same type of dyno and I saw like 20 hp less. But then reading on dynos change by the run sometimes... Cheers Nick
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[quote name='gtguy'] Hmmmm...every review I have read of the R cars, say that the first suspension setting is soft and wallowy with plenty of bump steer; the middle setting is the one; the third setting is for track use only (best handling, but uncomfortable for daily use). Kevin[/quote] Not a flame, but that has nothing to do with understeer. But you are right, the comfort setting is what it is: a highway setting for cruising up I5, the sport setting is for daily spirited driving, and the third setting is for track days (which I intend to do), autocross, and ripping it up on some smooth backroads (which there are a good number of in CA). Seems like the perfect combination to me.
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Thanks for the clarification, Nick. I haven't been around FreshAlloy to read up and post in quite a while. Looks like the Vortech supercharger is new. I'm assuming the price is about $6000 which is a big blow, but then that's probably about 430hp I'm assuming. My bad on the Volvo; Idon't know what Iwas thinking. I'll still keep my vote to the Legacy over the others, but they all do have their pros and cons. What kind of timeline are you looking at buying a car? June? Wait till fall for the rumored performance Legacy? Is larger size important to you?
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[quote name='wakked1'][quote name='gtguy'] Hmmmm...every review I have read of the R cars, say that the first suspension setting is soft and wallowy with plenty of bump steer; the middle setting is the one; the third setting is for track use only (best handling, but uncomfortable for daily use). Kevin[/quote] Not a flame, but that has nothing to do with understeer. But you are right, the comfort setting is what it is: a highway setting for cruising up I5, the sport setting is for daily spirited driving, and the third setting is for track days (which I intend to do), autocross, and ripping it up on some smooth backroads (which there are a good number of in CA). Seems like the perfect combination to me.[/quote] I should have been clearer, wakked. The usability of the suspension settings, and how they reacted in the real world, did indeed contribute to the aforementioned understeer. Kevin
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[quote name='PPower']Thanks for the clarification, Nick. I haven't been around FreshAlloy to read up and post in quite a while. Looks like the Vortech supercharger is new. I'm assuming the price is about $6000 which is a big blow, but then that's probably about 430hp I'm assuming. My bad on the Volvo; Idon't know what Iwas thinking. I'll still keep my vote to the Legacy over the others, but they all do have their pros and cons. What kind of timeline are you looking at buying a car? June? Wait till fall for the rumored performance Legacy? Is larger size important to you?[/quote] No prob. I know the price tag is through the roof ($6K). Would I ever spend that kind of money in one shot... well I am not sure possibly no. But then again who knows. I am thinking the later part of 04 or possibly later. I did read the other post about the performance version coming out. My 02 WRX just turn 30k miles so I can wait a while. What do you mean larger size? Engine or size or car size. I definetly want somehting bigger than the WRX. Engine size does not matter 2.0 or 3.5 or 2.5 is fine with me. Cheers Nick
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[quote name='titsataki'][quote name='PPower']Thanks for the clarification, Nick. I haven't been around FreshAlloy to read up and post in quite a while. Looks like the Vortech supercharger is new. I'm assuming the price is about $6000 which is a big blow, but then that's probably about 430hp I'm assuming. My bad on the Volvo; Idon't know what Iwas thinking. I'll still keep my vote to the Legacy over the others, but they all do have their pros and cons. What kind of timeline are you looking at buying a car? June? Wait till fall for the rumored performance Legacy? Is larger size important to you?[/quote] No prob. I know the price tag is through the roof ($6K). Would I ever spend that kind of money in one shot... well I am not sure possibly no. But then again who knows. I am thinking the later part of 04 or possibly later. I did read the other post about the performance version coming out. My 02 WRX just turn 30k miles so I can wait a while. What do you mean larger size? Engine or size or car size. I definetly want somehting bigger than the WRX. Engine size does not matter 2.0 or 3.5 or 2.5 is fine with me. Cheers Nick[/quote] The other thing is, by the time any of us are ready to plunk down our bucks, June or July for me, we will have definite word on a) if the high-perf Legover is coming and b) what form it will have. And for the record, those of you who know me, know that I don't often do this, but Subaru is pretty dumb for letting these "rumors" leak out. Announce the car or not. Keeping people sitting on the fence is silly, IMHO. Kevin
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I agree Kevin. Nick, I was referring to interior size which can or may not affect exterior dimensions. If you go [url=http://www.legacysti.com/viewtopic.php?p=1675#1675]here[/url], there are charts I did on the first post there. Or you can copy and paste theshortcut of [url=http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/i=wMjQ4NjY4NnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE%3D]this[/url] to download the excel sheet. I really don't expect much of a growth on the interior of the Legacy. IIRC, the shoulder room, width, and rear legroom show the biggest differences.
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[quote name='gtguy'] I should have been clearer, wakked. The usability of the suspension settings, and how they reacted in the real world, did indeed contribute to the aforementioned understeer. Kevin[/quote] Damping has a minimal effect on understeer/oversteer. The primary factors that effect that are available power and grip front vs rear. Which (for an AWD car) are driven by the ratio front vs rear of power distribution, tire sizes, and the size of the swaybars. Changes in ride height front/rear can also have a small effect. The S60R does indeed have a bit more oversteer in advanced mode, not because of the suspension settings however but because the AWD system feeds in more rear power midcorner than it does in sport or comfort. I suspect someone in the near future will come out with a controller or chip that will the owner to tune front vs rear torque distribution, throttle response and suspension damping for different modes (its all software).
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[quote name='wakked1'][quote name='gtguy'] I should have been clearer, wakked. The usability of the suspension settings, and how they reacted in the real world, did indeed contribute to the aforementioned understeer. Kevin[/quote] Damping has a minimal effect on understeer/oversteer. The primary factors that effect that are available power and grip front vs rear. Which (for an AWD car) are driven by the ratio front vs rear of power distribution, tire sizes, and the size of the swaybars. Changes in ride height front/rear can also have a small effect. The S60R does indeed have a bit more oversteer in advanced mode, not because of the suspension settings however but because the AWD system feeds in more rear power midcorner than it does in sport or comfort. I suspect someone in the near future will come out with a controller or chip that will the owner to tune front vs rear torque distribution, throttle response and suspension damping for different modes (its all software).[/quote] Not true, actually. With damping and spring rates, you can dramatically change the way that a car handles. Too much front spring and it will understeer. Too much rear spring and it will oversteer. Damper settings have the same effect (though not as dramatic) as spring rates. Don't forget that spring rates and damper settings have a direct effect on available amounts of grip. Tire pressures can also affect whether a car under or oversteers, in addition to the factors that you mention. One might also say that the Rs have a bit more oversteer in advanced mode because the suspension firmness settings are out of whack. I don't doubt that the Volvo is a nice car, so please don't misconstrue my comments as attacks on the R cars. As stated earlier, I love the interior. It has plenty of power, and I'm sure it's more fun to drive than the regular Volvos. If it were a price that I considered reasonable, it would be on my shopping list, too, even with my aversion to electronic gizmos that regulate ride, grip and handling, but I confess to being a luddite, and one who won't spend more than $30K for a car. My big concern with the Legacy GT is suspension tuning. In other markets, they tend to get firmer springs and dampers than we do. One review mentions that the advantage of a light car is that you can get away with softer springs and dampers, yet still get good amounts of stiction for top-notch handling. We'll have to see what the USDM car gets. Kevin
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[quote name='"wakked1"']Damping has a minimal effect on understeer/oversteer. The primary factors that effect that are available power and grip front vs rear. [quote] The Volvo will be faster around any given track in advanced mode than the other 2 because the puter will dial in more damping and make the handling more neutral i.e. less understeer.
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