Looking at Swift springs and Bilstein HD struts

I'm completely new to the LGT suspension game and am thinking about getting the Swift/Bilstein HD setup on my car. Everywhere I've seen the Bilsteins need the Spec B tophats to work properly. Can anyone give me advice as to what I should do when it comes to suspension?

 

I'm looking for a slight drop, but am more interested in overall performance rather than looks. I hear Konis are good struts as well. Can someone point me in the right direction?

 

I'm only making a little bit of money now (to spend on parts) and will be upgrading the f+r swaybars asap too. Does anyone know if Whiteline makes sways for the LGT too? Thanks so much for the feedback!!!

Bump for help.

Everywhere I've seen the Bilsteins need the Spec B tophats to work properly.

 

True. Spec.B tophats for all Bilstein struts and some coilovers.

 

Can anyone give me advice as to what I should do when it comes to suspension?

 

I'm looking for a slight drop, but am more interested in overall performance rather than looks. I hear Konis are good struts as well. Can someone point me in the right direction?

That's a tougher one. It really depends on what your goals are... If you are looking for the aesthetic bonus of lowering, you really should match the spring with a stiffer strut/shock, so you are on the right path in that regard. If you are trying to improve or achieve a particular "handling" from the car, it all depends on the context which you use it in.

 

After my experience with Swifts/Konis, I would definitely recommend sacrificing the low, stiff ride of the swifts for a more moderate spring like Pinks, Cobbs or Rallitek (although I have no experience with them). The swifts are stiff enough to make daily-driving and commuting a love/hate relationship... and this is particularly true in New England where the roads are typically in poor condition. A better aftermarket strut/shock set will improve comfort and performance, even on stock springs.

 

Running a stiffer rear swaybar will allow you balance out the handling from the heavy understeer the car has stock. If you go with the more mild springs, you may want to consider a matched set of sways to reduce body roll. I am currently considering a matched set, even though I'm using the stiffest non-coilover springs available. At the very least, a stiffer rear sway (JDM 20mm at a minimum) will compensate for the front-heavy nature of the car, and give you slightly better grip at the limit. Changing the F/R stiffness will change the way your car corners at the limit, so do lots of research, and upgrade your tires!

 

I'm only making a little bit of money now (to spend on parts) and will be upgrading the f+r swaybars asap too. Does anyone know if Whiteline makes sways for the LGT too? Thanks so much for the feedback!!!

Okay, I know the feeling and after a year of planning, and just recently "finishing" my suspension build (minus sways), let me offer you one piece of advice: Slow down, take a deep breath, and realize that it can be very expensive and time consuming to mod your suspension properly. I am a mechanical engineer with an automotive tech. background and I still made plenty of mistakes along the way, and spent more money than I needed to as a result. You and your car will be better off if you take the time to really understand the highly-engineered dynamic system that you are planning to modify.

 

Post back with any specific questions and I will try to point you to threads that I'm aware of.

 

Take care,

Rick

 

PS: Whiteline does make sways for the LGT. Be prepared to check manufacturer webpages and even call vendors if you want to do this right!

And just when you though I would shut up, I'm back with a link... LINK!

 

If you start in that post/thread and keep following the links I reference, you will see much of what I have learned/experienced along the way. Don't forget to click on the thread title in the top right each time a link brings up a single post... You will see all the background conversation that led to the post.

 

Also, you can use the search feature to search for threads that I've created. There is a lot of information there, and that's only one member! There are many others out there who have modified their suspension to their satisfaction, and no doubt they have their own recommendations.

...wow. That is one comprehensive post! Lol. You're the best Underdog!

i am running the swifts HD combo. its a nice setup but sometimes the ride can get a sit rough on less than Smooth roads. Actually i had to remove the front sway to make the car a bit more bearable. ihave a 2.5i and when i removed the sway i noticed that one fact it was binding for the front crossmember -After removal things have settled a lot and the car even has the tendency to Oversteer without any additional body sway.

 

the car also has a jdm GT rear sway which is thicker.

Anybody have pics of a car with Bilsteins and Swifts? If you post, be sure to let us know which tophats you're using (JDM-style vs stock like MachV did).

 

Searching the forum turned up a bunch of pics with Swifts but it's not always clear what shocks/struts/tophats are in there, so I'm not sure how meaningful the pics are. I'm really close to pulling the trigger on a set of Swifts or Pinks but what I want seems to be right in between the two.

 

Thanks!

Anybody have pics of a car with Bilsteins and Swifts? If you post, be sure to let us know which tophats you're using (JDM-style vs stock like MachV did).

 

Searching the forum turned up a bunch of pics with Swifts but it's not always clear what shocks/struts/tophats are in there, so I'm not sure how meaningful the pics are. I'm really close to pulling the trigger on a set of Swifts or Pinks but what I want seems to be right in between the two.

 

Thanks!

 

You're in luck - just installed Spec B Bilsteins and Swifts with JDM top hats yesterday afternoon. Pictures are below.

 

Initial impressions - definitely a drop (~1 1/4" Front, ~1/4" - 1/2" Rear) and definitely stiffer that stock. Of course my stockers have 62K CA miles on them and while they have life left in them, they are definitely not Bilsteins. My wife complimented the ride this morning and said that it felt much more stable. Dive and squat are gone - or at least not apparent - braking is much more fun and really helps to take advantage of the GT's extra braking power.

 

Definitely need to get a roll-center kit as the camber is definitely higher on the negative side at the front than I'm comfortable with right now. I've ordered an adjustable rear lateral link set to help dial-out some of the negative camber at the rear.

 

That said, with the camber set as is, this things rails around turns and is absolutely unflappable over road undulations and lane Bott's dots. It reacts much faster to road grooving which I think is more a function of the poorly engineered LCA bushings. I'm thinking that I'll likely go with the AVO Caster Adjustment Bushing System to help dial-out some of this tendency to tramline. Obviously a good alignment is in order, so I'll see how close to spec I can get with this before I take it any further.

 

Also forgot to mention that I have about 100 lbs in the back between the take off strut/springs and the rear tow hitch so that may possibly account for a bit of extra drop (1/4") at the rear)

 

Incidently, I'll be selling a set of Sedan-specific STI Pink springs. I had considered just using an extra rubber bumper at the top and decided not to go that route and went with the Wagon-specific Swifts instead.

 

BTW - I'm running 225/45x17s so the 225s definitely fill out the wheel wells a bit more.

Thanks... but, did your thread get locked?

 

NSFW, you do not have permission to access this page.

Thanks... but, did your thread get locked?

 

Crap - Uploaded pics in the post above.

 

After my experience with Swifts/Konis, I would definitely recommend sacrificing the low, stiff ride of the swifts for a more moderate spring like Pinks, Cobbs or Rallitek (although I have no experience with them). The swifts are stiff enough to make daily-driving and commuting a love/hate relationship... and this is particularly true in New England where the roads are typically in poor condition. A better aftermarket strut/shock set will improve comfort and performance, even on stock springs.

 

As mentioned in the other thread Swifts are not designed to be low and stiff, I am not sure what is going on with your setup but definitely isnt the norm.

 

Cobbs have a 1.75" drop in the front and 1" drop in the rear, no listed spring rates. Rallitek on a GT or 2.5i lists 1.3" drop front and rear. Pinks would be the mildest but IMO the Swifts are a better choice. The Cobb and Rallitek pretty much have to have stiffer rates than the Swifts given the drop they list. Swifts are spec'd at 1.2" front and 1.0" rear, rates are 241 Front and 370 Rear. Very mild spring designed for improved handling and a smooth ride while lowering the ride height slightly for better visual appearance.

The published drop figures are of dubious accuracy. A couple of locals with Pinks and Cobbs parked side-by-side at a recent meet, and the drops are closer than the published figures would lead you to believe. The Cobbs are a bit lower up front (0.5" I think) but the rears are almost identical. Go figure. Swifts are significantly lower than either.

I would like to add that since upgrading to whiteline sways and kartboy endlinks, the ride has actually improved. The stock endlinks seemed to be binding up at extreme angles which cause bumps to feel "clunkier" than they do now. Perhaps it was the bushings or just the weak bars... whatever it was, I like the results of my most recent upgrade.

 

As I said in your FS thread, I will take some pics with a measuring tape to compare Swifts/HD's with Swifts/Konis. By the pictures, it looks consistent with the known 3/8" discrepancy between KYB and Bilstein style front lower spring perches.

I would like to add that since upgrading to whiteline sways and kartboy endlinks, the ride has actually improved. The stock endlinks seemed to be binding up at extreme angles which cause bumps to feel "clunkier" than they do now. Perhaps it was the bushings or just the weak bars... whatever it was, I like the results of my most recent upgrade.

 

As I said in your FS thread, I will take some pics with a measuring tape to compare Swifts/HD's with Swifts/Konis. By the pictures, it looks consistent with the known 3/8" discrepancy between KYB and Bilstein style front lower spring perches.

 

The difference would make the Spec. B sit higher though, the springs are designed for the GT not the Spec B. For example the Rallitek are listed at 1.3" for the LGT and .9" for the Spec B.

 

I have contacted Swift to get concrete answers for everyone, I dont want there to be any misconceptions about the Swift Springs.

The Cobb and Rallitek pretty much have to have stiffer rates than the Swifts given the drop they list. Swifts are spec'd at 1.2" front and 1.0" rear, rates are 241 Front and 370 Rear. Very mild spring designed for improved handling and a smooth ride while lowering the ride height slightly for better visual appearance.

 

 

The amount of drop has nothing to do with spring rate. Progress drop 1.3 and are nearly the same rate, actually less than stock. BTW...Cobb doesn't seem to drop 1.75, more like 1.

 

http://subiwiki.com/wiki/index.php/BL_%282005-2009%29#Handling_Modifications

 

Swift is not "mild" when added to stock LGT KYB struts...your talkin 20% firmer and with the drop your asking a lot of the stock struts.

 

Swifts are designed for JDM set ups...ie Bilsteins, but you can put them on KYBs.

 

http://www.mann-engineering.com/products/product.asp?cid=&ID=83

"When you don't want to compromise the comfort or the handling chose Sport Springs for the luxurious ride you deserve Not Just JDM, but The Best of JDM"

Specifications:

4F007 MY05 Legacy GT Wagon (BP6)

Drop - F:-25mm, R:-15mm (Bilsteins)

Drop - F:-32mm, R:-25mm (USDM KYB)

Rate - F:4.3kg/mm, R:6.6kg/mm

 

4F008 MY05 Legacy GT Sedan (BL6)

Drop - F:-25mm, R:-15mm (Bilsteins)

Drop - F:-32mm, R:-25mm (USDM KYB)

Rate - F:4.3kg/mm, R:6.6kg/mm

The difference would make the Spec. B sit higher though, the springs are designed for the GT not the Spec B. For example the Rallitek are listed at 1.3" for the LGT and .9" for the Spec B.

 

I have contacted Swift to get concrete answers for everyone, I dont want there to be any misconceptions about the Swift Springs.

 

But in Japan (where the Swifts are designed) all Legacy GT's get Bilsteins, AFAIK.

 

Below are the pics of my ride height (LF, LR, RF, RR)... The car is on 225/40-18's. The struts are equivalent to the USDM GT KYB-style struts.

 

I apologize for the smallish pics. If you squint you can see the car is riding at just ~24.75" at all corners. Full tank of gas, ~40lbs in the trunk (in addition to spare, jack, etc)...

 

Based on the pics and the spec of wheel arch height 15.0F and 14.4R, the Swift Sedan springs on my setup are dropping the car 2.75"F and 2.15"R

 

Han's: The spring rate absolutely has something to do with the drop. The drop is dependent on:

 

 

• Free length of spring
  
• Spring Rate
  
• Weight of vehicle, and,
  
• Location of upper and lower spring perch relative to the chassis
  

B

 

Han's: The spring rate absolutely has something to do with the drop.

]

 

Yes, but you can not say just because one spring has more drop that it means a stiffer rate.

 

I am referring to this comment from Touge Tuning: "The Cobb and Rallitek pretty much have to have stiffer rates than the Swifts given the drop they list."

Yes, but you can not say just because one spring has more drop that it means a stiffer rate.

 

I am referring to this comment from Touge Tuning: "The Cobb and Rallitek pretty much have to have stiffer rates than the Swifts given the drop they list."

 

Gotcha... I agree. more drop != "more" rate

Check my post # 8 above for pictures from my Bilstein/Swift SS on JDM top hats this past Saturday. The drop was most noticeable at the front where it was amost 1.25" but only .25" - .5" at the rear (weighted).

 

UD - thanks for the spring rates.

 

The harsh firmness may be due to the front sway end links binding too - hadn't thought of that. Will check it out and put my AVO adjustables on there (F/R) to see if that helps.

SBT, a few things:

 

Your pics do not seem to be complete, I don't see either of the "after" shots for the left-hand side. I used the vaca pix specification to calculate my drop, not an actual measurement, so it's possible that my car was lower to begin with (although I doubt it). Also, my car has been on the Swifts since April so everything has had a chance to settle. I know the springs are supposed to be pre-"set" but there is the rubber in the upper perch and, in your case, the new tophats.

 

Also, comparing sedan v. wagon (weight), sedan v. wagon (springs), and Bilsteins versus KYB/Konis might be confounding the issue further. Perhaps the lower spring perches on all Bilsteins, front and rear, may be higher versus the KYB style struts. Throw the different front tophats in the mix and it truly is a crapshoot. Perhaps someone with Swifts on stock KYB struts could chime in, so I'm not seen as an outlier.

 

Regarding the endlinks, I am using the bushing-style Kartboys, which allow almost no lateral movement other than their deflection. From my understanding the AVO adjustable links use a shielded spherical bearing which may still have the issue I was experiencing with the stockers. Hopefully that is not the case.

UD - you're right on the AVO ELs, they are spherical so that may be problematic as the stockers are too. Would hate to break these before I got a chance to replace them. Will look at the KB variants and see if that will work.

 

You raise a good point about the comparos between the Sedan v. Wagon. I did put new top spring rubber in the rears but it was clear looking at the older set that they do not compress much if at all, certainly not enough to get another 1/4" of lift out of the new ones.

 

Thanks for pointing out that I didn't include the left side post-drop pics, my bad. Will get that fixed.

will have my swifts installed tomorrow on stock struts. Pics will follow.

Thanks SBT and SubLGTaru.

 

For reference, I determined the drop by comparing my wheel arch height to the spec I mentioned in post #16. I have attached a screenshot from the '05 vaca pix. Notice how the wagon is referred to as the "2.0GT"? We can't even be sure that this wasn't just a translated manual with no regard for actual differences between domestic markets... Anyways, the wagons supposedly ride .4" higher in the rear versus the sedan.

 

In my situation, I assumed the CL of the wheel hubs to be at 12.5", the pics should verify that. By subtracting the hub CL height from the fender sheetmetal height, and taking the difference from the spec., I arrived at my "drop". Following this method should eliminate any differences due to different wheel sizes.

 

F: (24.75-12.5)-15= -2.75"

 

R: (24.75-12.5)-14.4= -2.15"

 

The amount of drop has nothing to do with spring rate. Progress drop 1.3 and are nearly the same rate, actually less than stock. BTW...Cobb doesn't seem to drop 1.75, more like 1.

 

As underdog mentioned it has ALOT to do with the spring rate. Progress springs I am pretty sure are all progressive rate so when static sure the rate of the spring may be less than stock but compress the spring a little bit and im sure the rate goes up quite a bit over stock.

After talking with the guys at Swift they have mentioned that yes Bilstein HD shocks would be 3/8" different then stock but the Spec B shocks and LGT shocks should be no more than 5-7mm difference in terms of ride height.

 

Your drop is definitely alot more than it should be, hopefully we can figure out what is going on here. Your about twice as low as the Swifts are designed to lower the car so something has to be off. I am gonna pass your measurements and info onto Swift and hopefully find out some more info.

 

ITS A MYSTERY

 

But in Japan (where the Swifts are designed) all Legacy GT's get Bilsteins, AFAIK.

 

Below are the pics of my ride height (LF, LR, RF, RR)... The car is on 225/40-18's. The struts are equivalent to the USDM GT KYB-style struts.

 

I apologize for the smallish pics. If you squint you can see the car is riding at just ~24.75" at all corners. Full tank of gas, ~40lbs in the trunk (in addition to spare, jack, etc)...

 

Based on the pics and the spec of wheel arch height 15.0F and 14.4R, the Swift Sedan springs on my setup are dropping the car 2.75"F and 2.15"R

 

Han's: The spring rate absolutely has something to do with the drop. The drop is dependent on:

 

 

• Free length of spring
  
• Spring Rate
  
• Weight of vehicle, and,
  
• Location of upper and lower spring perch relative to the chassis