TCS & Stability Control - Food for thought

A situation where vehicle stability and traction control would have been bad…

While driving on all season tires before Christmas the lady and I were driving 15 in 25mph, lots of snow and below freezing. While coming to a T intersection I began to slow, only to get full on ABS, no attempt to go to a threshold braking method got the car out of ABS. Touch the pedal and full lock up, there turns out to be ice under this snow. As I entered the intersection I flipped the car sideways and drifted my way from sliding head on into the curb.

Now doing 30mph, clearly too fast, the sweeping left turn I had to make wasn’t going to happen, and again I power drifted my way out of a full side impact into the curb.

The road cleared enough for me to get enough traction to slow down and come to a stop. We then crawled at 5mph until we got clear roads. When I finally had to stop at 5mph the car slide a solid foot the right.

Clearly I out drove the conditions that wasn’t the point of this. Had the 05 had traction control and/or vehicle stability I wouldn’t have been able to pull this and avoid the accident. The car would have fought me, or if I had the ‘time’ I could have switched it off, but in this case not enough time to flip it off.

Research into the all seasons show the x-wife bought some crappy tires, so there are some nice winter ones on there now.

Just thought this was an interesting take on the 'progression' of safety features. Now if only to get the ABS turned off

*flame away*

Hopefully you had quality all-season underwear on that day!

You're both right and wrong. In your case your skill was able to maximize vehicle performance into a save. For the 99.1% VSC is a cost/life saver. Not many could do what you describe. I do hear you though. I had an 08 MDX for a short while when they first came out. I refused to drive that technological vehicle in the snow because it was so dang unpredictable. I felt like a passenger along for the ride. Hated that car. Instead I drove my SRA 02 Pathfinder which was a simple "stick and rudder" vehicle but with true 4WD and locking center tcase it could get me anywhere and would always behave as commanded/expected.


I think as the technology continues to evolve, we will see engineering that better maximizes potential in extreme conditions.

Originally Posted by Oregon OBXT

Hopefully you had quality all-season underwear on that day!

You're both right and wrong. In your case your skill was able to maximize vehicle performance into a save. For the 99.1% VSC is a cost/life saver. Not many could do what you describe. I do hear you though. I had an 08 MDX for a short while when they first came out. I refused to drive that technological vehicle in the snow because it was so dang unpredictable. I felt like a passenger along for the ride. Hated that car. Instead I drove my SRA 02 Pathfinder which was a simple "stick and rudder" vehicle but with true 4WD and locking center tcase it could get me anywhere and would always behave as commanded/expected.


I think as the technology continues to evolve, we will see engineering that better maximizes potential in extreme conditions.

I hear you on the MDX, it's a great SUV but not a true off road junky's dream SUV. Sometimes the basics just work best.

I wonder if the tech will come along enough to know when it needs to turn itself off? Everything I did would probably make a computer think I was out of control - way too much sideways action.

Even with VSC and TSC you can rotate the car on a sheet of ice by applying throttle. It is not as controllable (by driver input) as without such aids, but can be done and I have done it. No traction = no help from VSC

Get a dedicated set of winter tires, especially where you live. They won't be super helpful on ice alone, but will make a huge difference. Cheaper than damaging your car and cheaper than most insurance deductibles.

I agree with you. I hate ABS, VSC/TCS for the snow and ice.
In my Silverado I had to compression brake cause the ABS was so touchy, where in my old Audi 4kq I had total control and could make the car do what I want, ie Predictable.
There's got to be a way for Auto Mfgs to make the systems "smarter".

Originally Posted by tytek

Even with VSC and TSC you can rotate the car on a sheet of ice by applying throttle. It is not as controllable (by driver input) as without such aids, but can be done and I have done it. No traction = no help from VSC

Get a dedicated set of winter tires, especially where you live. They won't be super helpful on ice alone, but will make a huge difference. Cheaper than damaging your car and cheaper than most insurance deductibles.

My experience with tcs is that it cuts throttle and/or applies brakes to a spinning wheel. I had all the tires spinning, floored, and drifting the car sideways. I've not be able to do that in a car with tcs. Stability control would have also been applying brakes trying to get the car to straighten out. Not sure how that would have played out.

Last night I was the driver for a ladies night and was driving a Volvo XC90 with all seasons in similar conditions, the car was, shall I say, 'less controllable' from a drivers point of view. The lady's sister loves it, and for her it's been great in snow but there is no way I would could throw that truck around. Great AWD system though, you can even 'feel' it thinking and working.

The snow tires have been a huge improvement, and on ice it's very noticeable. Tire Rack did an all seasons vs. winter tires on a skating rink a few years ago and it sold me. They showed stopping distance and turning ability.

See it here

http://youtu.be/GlYEMH10Z4s

That's one thing I like about my 07 Pontiac Solstice GXP. I can choose the leave of computer interference. GM gives you 3 levels, (1) On (TCS & SCS full on) (2) Competitive Mode ( Lets you spin you rear wheels & drift the rear end until the front wheel start to slide & them the TCS & SCS will kick in. (3) Off (TCS & SCS full off & you just have stranded ABS)

The lack of TCS & SCS, also called VDC system is one reason I'm like & keeping my 05 LGT.

Mike

Originally Posted by rob-2

A situation where vehicle stability and traction control would have been bad…

While driving on all season tires before Christmas the lady and I were driving 15 in 25mph, lots of snow and below freezing. While coming to a T intersection I began to slow, only to get full on ABS, no attempt to go to a threshold braking method got the car out of ABS. Touch the pedal and full lock up, there turns out to be ice under this snow. As I entered the intersection I flipped the car sideways and drifted my way from sliding head on into the curb.

Now doing 30mph, clearly too fast, the sweeping left turn I had to make wasn’t going to happen, and again I power drifted my way out of a full side impact into the curb.

The road cleared enough for me to get enough traction to slow down and come to a stop. We then crawled at 5mph until we got clear roads. When I finally had to stop at 5mph the car slide a solid foot the right.

Clearly I out drove the conditions that wasn’t the point of this. Had the 05 had traction control and/or vehicle stability I wouldn’t have been able to pull this and avoid the accident. The car would have fought me, or if I had the ‘time’ I could have switched it off, but in this case not enough time to flip it off.

Research into the all seasons show the x-wife bought some crappy tires, so there are some nice winter ones on there now.

Just thought this was an interesting take on the 'progression' of safety features. Now if only to get the ABS turned off

*flame away*

Your wish is my command:
I'm glad you're alright.

You made a critical error in judgment that allowed for this accident to take place. In foul weather, AWD or not you never outdrive the road conditions. You err on the safe side and drive slower if you don't know what's under the surface of the snow. Typically this is called defensive driving.

Had you not been driving so fast you never would have been sliding and nothing would have happened.

Best of luck getting this resolved. Thankfully you weren't hurt!

Originally Posted by iNVAR

Your wish is my command:
I'm glad you're alright.

You made a critical error in judgment that allowed for this accident to take place. In foul weather, AWD or not you never outdrive the road conditions. You err on the safe side and drive slower if you don't know what's under the surface of the snow. Typically this is called defensive driving.

Had you not been driving so fast you never would have been sliding and nothing would have happened.

Best of luck getting this resolved. Thankfully you weren't hurt!

Did you realize that no impact happened?

Yes, I stated 15mph was too fast I think 5mph would have been required, even at that speed coming to a stop resulted in a massive slide sideways. We should have stayed in and the lady wanted to go out. So my error was to say yes and go out.

Thanks though I can always handle the direct talk

Of course I realize no impact happened. I was making fun of you since you asked for it. Doesn't the post sound familiar?

Originally Posted by iNVAR

Of course I realize no impact happened. I was making fun of you since you asked for it. Doesn't the post sound familiar?

It does and why I posted my little story up

Here's a story from last Friday night in the 09 Spec B.

On the flat driveway in VT I wanted to see how slippery it was.

On the 2 1/2 hour drive up the temp on the dash was 33-35F on/off light rain.

From a stop I rev'ed the engine a bit and held my foot about 2500rpm, let the clutch out. We could feel the car limit power and drive forward. I did this twice to show her how the VDC worked. Same result both times.

When we got out of the car, nearly fell on my ass, it was that icey.

The drive up was uneventful, even the town streets were not icey.

I know that if I tried that with the wagon, it would have just sat there on spun the tires.

I'm guessing you may have been able to drive out of your situation with VDC by doing the same light application of throttle.

Glad you and the lady were ok.

In short Subaru ABS in LGT is overactive and primitive. Found the same to be true in my 04 WRX.

If you have two tires(one side) on ice/snow and the others on black pavement the ABS causes all four wheels to lose their stopping instead of channeling ABS pumping to tires on a slippery surface.

My 07 MDX with VSC/Traction Control/ABS stops the vehicle in a much shorter distance same surface since it controls each tire. I concur their are times it feels weird with VSC taking over or it gets you stuck in rough stuff due to the system getting overwhelmed(you can smell brakes burning). However you can easily disable the VSC/Stability control.

Hopefully the VSC/Stability control in Subaru helps it poor ABS.