Collection of suggested alignment numbers?

There isn't a good collection of suggested alignment numbers based on intended application and suspension mods hanging around is there?

I almost had somebody try to give me an Imprezza alignment yesterday before they found 05 Legacy in the Hunter...

It's be nice to know what experience has taught us instead of just the tech's opinion that happened to be working that day.

Chime in?

+1

This would make a good sticky...

what would you like to have for alignment numbers?

Typically, alignment adjustments as well as anything else that is adjustable it really design to suit not only your needs, but the target function at hand.. just let me know what you need for your car to do and I'll crunch out some numbers.

Things to think about:

-Tire life

-Type of driving (majority of the time)

-Type of driving (minority of the time)

-Road conditions to expect

-Current mods on the car

-Proposed mods on the car

-Aggressiveness

-"Tight" or "Loose"

Keefe

It would be cool to have a sticky of some typical setups, and the stock settings for reference. Our local alignment shops are pretty ignorant...

Personally, I'm after street settings (daily driver) for decent performance and good tire life on reasonably smooth roads, with mildly lowered suspension (iON springs and stock struts, for now), with the occasional blast down the twisties. No track or autocross is expected.

Here's too much information -

I'm clueless as to how the car was delivered, but after the iON sport springs went on the aligned me with -1 degree camber.

I don't know if that alignment came with the 0.10 LF toe and the -0.28 RF toe we found yesterday, or if I beat it into those numbers through 'spirited component testing' but I got it re-aligned yesterday.

I like to carve em up but really, that only represents a small fraction of my driving - the lion's share is 70 - 80 miles highway a day during the week. (Yep I'm on a 23,000 mile a year clip.). But I still want the car taught and tight, without becoming unstable or squirrley, responsive, but not to the extreme - the EVO's handling was too much for me to want to deal with day after day in a commuting situation.

I don't ski every weekend anymore, and I live about a mile and a half from the town garage and a mile from the interstate so things are generally pretty well plowed for me. Temps in the winter rarely get down past the 20's and there aren't that many 90 degree days in the summer either.

So what Tucker gave me yesterday was -0.6 LF camber and -0.7 RF camber. He showed me how when I sat in the driver's seat the numbers equalled out. (My current 'real' wight is 188 lbs.) He said that backing off from the -1 would save my tires and keep her straight on the highway but still keep it crisp and responsive in the turns.

My toe is pretty much effectively zeroed out at -0.03 LF and -0.02 RF

Not that there's a lot of adjustment but she's pretty straight with a 0.01% thrust.

Mods that matter are ST2 w/exhaust, iON sport springs (1 1/4 inch drop in front & 1 inch down in back - progresssive front: @1" compression: 228lb/in, @2" compression: 297lb/in - linear rear: @ 382lb/in) - currently running 225/45/17 PZN M&S on 17 x 7.5 Enkei ZR1's.

So I can't dial her up and corner balance my setup like you can Keefe, but I also have less to mess up. I don't know if I'm going to head back and ask for another 0.03 degrees negative camber - I've got to noodle with the tire pressures a little more first - today I'm back at 38/36.

Suggest away!

sorry, thanks for the bump.. I'll come up with a general set of alignment numbers and sticky them in the tires/suspension forum sometime either thursday or friday (if I have time). I will also try to come up with some explanations and some pros/cons per each adjustment to the car.

Normally, I try not to get into detail because the car itself is really not all that adjustable for the ranges it provides in stock form.. but I will eventually just give out some numbers for this thread so that you all can use for the time being.

Keefe

I came up with a few numbers.. one is for conservative, one is for aggressive, but both are for street use since I don't think anyone here has the kind of suspension flexibility as I have on my car so here it is:

Daily Drive - Endurance:

Front

Camber = -.5 degrees

Toe = 0.0 degrees

Caster = +6 degrees

Rear

Camber = -1.0 degrees (it can vary to -1.5 degrees, depending on your drop)

Toe = 0.0 degrees

Caster = __ degrees (not adjustable anyways)

Daily Drive - Sport:

Front

Camber = -1.5 degrees (anymore than -2.0 will suffer in steering delay caused by the amount of caster this car already has).

Toe = 0.0 degrees 8.95251 minutes

Caster = +6 degrees

Rear

Camber = -1.0 degrees (it can vary to -1.5 degrees, depending on your drop)

Toe = 0.0 degrees

Caster = __ degrees (not adjustable anyways)

Also remember that these are targeted numbers that you should aim for.. if you can't get these numbers, buy some camber bolts or camber plates and fix the issue. Also, please tell me what tires you are running. Using these alignments will affect the amount of tire pressures you should be using to maximize grip or maximize the durability of your tires. All tires are different and all have different dimensions, compounds and the sort. You will have to tell me your tire sizes and tire model so I can give you the best performance that I know of. A good example is that it would be stupid to run 50 psi all around using my "SPORT" alignment because you are balloning the tire and it's not going to give you the grip you need when you corner or enter into a turn.. the rear end will get really nasty and swing away from you quickly since the rear has less of a contact patch to begin with when you are under braking going into the turn. A wheel with no weight or downforce over it yields no grip and renders it useless to your driving.

For reference from http://www.pelicanparts.com/BMW/techarticles/Borrowed/home_toe_in.htm :

Refer to the chart below to convert to minutes or degrees of toe. There are 60 minutes to one degree. A good rule of thumb is 1/16 inch toe in per wheel front and 1/8 inch toe in per wheel rear for a car doing autocrosses/time trials.

NOTE: This chart is based on a toe gauge that is 24 inches wide and will NOT be accurate for other widths.

Toe measurement 1/16 inch or 0.0625 inch = Toe angle 8.95251minutes

Toe measurement 1/8 inch or 0.125 inch = Toe angle 17.9051 minutes

Toe measurement 3/16 inch or 0.1875 inch = Toe angle 26.8578 minutes

Toe measurement ¼ inch or 0.25 inch = Toe angle 35.8106 minutes

Toe measurement 5/16 inch or 0.3125 inch = Toe angle 44.7638 minutes

Toe measurement 3/8 inch or 0.375 inch = Toe angle 53.7172 minutes

Toe measurement 7/16 inch or 0.4375 inch = Toe angle 1.04452°

Toe measurement ½ inch or 0.5 inch = Toe angle 1.19375°

Toe measurement 9/16 inch or 0.5625 inch = Toe angle 1.343°

Toe measurement 5/8 inch or 0.625 inch = Toe angle 1.49225°

Toe measurement 11/16 inch or 0.6875 inch = Toe angle 1.64152°

Toe measurement ¾ inch or 0.75 inch = Toe angle 1.79079°

Toe measurement 13/16 inch or 0.8125 inch = Toe angle 1.94008°

Toe measurement 7/8 inch or 0.875 inch = Toe angle 2.08938°

Toe measurement 15/16 inch or 0.9375 inch = Toe angle 2.23869°

Toe measurement 1 inch = Toe angle 2.38802°

Xenonk's Note: Anything more than 1/8" toe will show significant wear under 3,000 miles of driving. My personal experience was a new set of Toyo T1-S showed a lot of wear from the front tires vs. the rear using my "sport" setup.

Keefe

0.0 toe will let you run aggressive camber without too much of a hit in tire wear.

This might sound like a bit much, but my STi was setup with -3.00 camber in the front and -1.5 in the rear. 0 toe. With 15k on the tires, I rotated them and although they had SOME camber wear, it wasn't anything excessive. This was after 1 track day and 2 auto-x

Thx - (& now we don't have to go OT in the wheel thread...)

So right now I'm more 'endurance' and I should consider going back for more negative, right? (Or did Tucker hit the right compromise for me?) And what about the optimal pressures?

Here's too much information -

 

I'm clueless as to how the car was delivered, but after the iON sport springs went on the aligned me with -1 degree camber.

 

I don't know if that alignment came with the 0.10 LF toe and the -0.28 RF toe we found yesterday, or if I beat it into those numbers through 'spirited component testing' but I got it re-aligned yesterday.

 

I like to carve em up but really, that only represents a small fraction of my driving - the lion's share is 70 - 80 miles highway a day during the week. (Yep I'm on a 23,000 mile a year clip.). But I still want the car taught and tight, without becoming unstable or squirrley, responsive, but not to the extreme - the EVO's handling was too much for me to want to deal with day after day in a commuting situation.

 

I don't ski every weekend anymore, and I live about a mile and a half from the town garage and a mile from the interstate so things are generally pretty well plowed for me. Temps in the winter rarely get down past the 20's and there aren't that many 90 degree days in the summer either.

 

So what Tucker gave me yesterday was -0.6 LF camber and -0.7 RF camber. He showed me how when I sat in the driver's seat the numbers equalled out. (My current 'real' wight is 188 lbs.) He said that backing off from the -1 would save my tires and keep her straight on the highway but still keep it crisp and responsive in the turns.

 

My toe is pretty much effectively zeroed out at -0.03 LF and -0.02 RF

 

Not that there's a lot of adjustment but she's pretty straight with a 0.01% thrust.

 

Mods that matter are ST2 w/exhaust, iON sport springs (1 1/4 inch drop in front & 1 inch down in back - progresssive front: @1" compression: 228lb/in, @2" compression: 297lb/in - linear rear: @ 382lb/in) - currently running 225/45/17 PZN M&S on 17 x 7.5 Enkei ZR1's.

 

So I can't dial her up and corner balance my setup like you can Keefe, but I also have less to mess up. I don't know if I'm going to head back and ask for another 0.03 degrees negative camber - I've got to noodle with the tire pressures a little more first - today I'm back at 38/36.

 

Suggest away!

Optimal pressures really depend on how the tires heat up... and I really can't tell you any more of that.

Look for the little triangle around the edge of the outside shoulder of the tire. That little triangle is the limit of the contact patch. If you have too low of the tire pressure, you will be scrubbing past that triangle and you will start wear into the sidewall, too high and well, you are not using all that the tire is giving you. It's a lot of trial and error.. Another thing to feel on the tire by hand (it's the most inaccurate, but it works for me) is by feeling the tire surfaces of the inside edge, middle, and outside shoulder for differences in tire temperatures. If the inside is hotter than the outside, you can lower the tire pressures to relieve some of the camber heat that you are getting. You just want an even amount of heat across the tire.

on a 225/45/17, you can be as an aggressive driver and need 42/36 cold pressures or you can be a very clean smooth driver and still need 38/34 cold pressures and allow the tires to heat up and give you as much as 4psi increase while going on the daily commute to work.

Keefe

XenonK,

Had my LGT in recently for service, turned out the left and right front control arm rear bushings were cracked. The dealer replaced it and did an alignemnt with the following results:

Front: Left

______Actual Before Specified Range

Camber_-0.2___-0.2___-0.8 to 0.3

Caster___6.0___6.0___5.2 to 6.7

Toe____0.00___0.17___-0.08 to 0.08

 

Front: Right

Camber_-0.6___-0.6___-0.8 to 0.3

Caster___5.7___5.7___5.2 to 6.7

Toe____0.01___0.18___-0.08 to 0.08

 

Front

Cross Camber__0.3___0.3___-0.8 to 0.8

Cross Caster___0.4___0.4

Total Toe_____0.01___0.35*___-0.17 to 0.17

 

*This value is not within specification.

 

Rear: Left

Camber_-0.3___-0.3___-1.4 to 0.1

Toe____-0.01___0.05___-0.08 to 0.08

 

Rear: Right

Camber_-0.6___-0.6___-1.4 to 0.1

Toe____0.01___0.05___-0.08 to 0.08

 

Rear:

Cross Camber_-0.3___-0.3___-0.8 to 0.8

Total Toe____0.00___0.10___-0.17 to 00.17

Thrust Angel__-0.01__0.00___-0.33 to 0.33

 

Comments: The steering wheel is currently level.

The car drifts slightly to the right when I take my hands off, even on the left side of a crowned road.

I'm running Toyo Proxes 4 215/45 on the stock 17" rims.

I like to take turns/ramps as fast as possible and still have a comfortable highway ride with as little road/tire noise as possible. I would also like to maximise tire wear, if possible.

I am assuming that the endurance alignment would be good for me. I drive about 30K a year and the tires have to last. They will see a lot of highway, but definitely some aggressive street.

I have stock dampers w/ ION springs, getting CUSCO lower bars front & rear and getting an adjustable rear sway.

I have 17X8 Rotas (48mm) with TOYO T1-R 235/40/17 rubber.

Half of driving is with one person in the car, the other half is between 2 and 4 adults.

Are there any tweaks to the endurance set-up needed? What would be a good tire pressure to start?

Thanks.

The car drifts slightly to the right when I take my hands off, even on the left side of a crowned road.

 

I like to take turns/ramps as fast as possible and still have a comfortable highway ride with as little road/tire noise as possible. I would also like to maximise tire wear, if possible.

It's the cross camber and caster that is contributing for that little bit of the "wandering".. not a big deal.

Basically, you are where you need to be as you can't have both maximum grip and expect the tires to last.

Are there any tweaks to the endurance set-up needed? What would be a good tire pressure to start?

 

Thanks.

just have the pressures to the point where you are not rolling over the tire should provide you a good and even tire wear for the drive. Tire pressures are great to change based on your mood as it should be easy to adjust (just add air). On the more spirited days, you will know that you will need a few more psi (start with increments of 2 psi) to find your "sweet" spot. The sweet spot will be putting enough tire pressures to ensure that you are not riding on the sidewall of the tire. We dont need to ballon the tire up to the point where you start to shrink the contact patch, especially when driven hard.

Also, will the CUSCO lower bars affect the alignment at all? I will not be getting them for a week or two.

The rears bolt up to the toe-centric bolts, so just mark them off to make sure that they are tighten to the same spot, otherwise you'll need to redo the alignment for the rear. Front doesnt mess with anything that I know of that would affect the alignment.

The rears bolt up to the toe-centric bolts, so just mark them off to make sure that they are tighten to the same spot, otherwise you'll need to redo the alignment for the rear. Front doesnt mess with anything that I know of that would affect the alignment.

Good to know about the toe adjusters in the rear. With my luck I would take it off and then notice the bolt looked a bit odd!

Back from the dead !

Any suggestions on alignment settings for my set up :

Swift Springs, dropped -1.5"F and 1"R

225/40/18 tires on 18 x 8 rims. 45 psi

Cusco sway bars

Mostly spirited street driving with occassional track days.

Thanks.

 

Daily Drive - Sport:

Front

Camber = -1.5 degrees (anymore than -2.0 will suffer in steering delay caused by the amount of caster this car already has).

Toe = 0.0 degrees 8.95251 minutes

Caster = +6 degrees

 

Rear

Camber = -1.0 degrees (it can vary to -1.5 degrees, depending on your drop)

Toe = 0.0 degrees

Caster = __ degrees (not adjustable anyways)

 

Also remember that these are targeted numbers that you should aim for.. if you can't get these numbers, buy some camber bolts or camber plates and fix the issue.

 

Keefe

I fully agree with the sport alignment settings. On a stock Legacy GT, you can achieve front camber #s up to -1.9 degrees with *16mm* Ingalls I-81280 camber adjustment bolts in the top position. (Note that the Ingalls Catalog tells folks to use the wrong part (14mm I-81260)).

More at post: http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90790