Teins or pinks?

Looking at dropping the cars suspension a tad. Its a JDM LGT so already have Bilsteins all round so looking at options for different makes of lowering springs. Don't want super low, just around a 1" drop all round. I'm looking at either Teins (NZ$699 installed) or Pinks (from http://www.rhdjapan.com for similar $$$ landed + taxes, but not including fitting) or other option is heat and compress the factory springs to whatever ride height I want (company here does it for NZ$399 which includes removal and refitting)

I want better handling so am looking at lowered springs, RSB and some decent tyres (once I kill the cheapies that came on the car from Japan )

Thoughts? Can anyone see the downside with compressing the factory Bilsteins option (other than being unable to return to factory height)

Oh, and its my DD so need balance of comfort and handling. Im used to my old RWD BMW which could corner 3 times quicker than my current AWD legacy. Admitedly it had fat feet and better tyres too which helped considerably

Go pinks in my opinion. Decent drop and a great ride on the bilsteins. You may end up with a saggy butt however. I had to put 1/2 inch spacer in the back of my car to level it out

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I'm told that "Compressing the springs 1" will NOT effect the ride/comfort what so ever. $399 fitted."

The comfort of the Bilsteins all around is pretty damn good as it stands right now. If the above holds true then I will probably try that route. The price is pretty reasonable too, and nearer my limit since its just my DD.

This shouldn't even be a question

seems so easy to upset some people these days

Just cut your stock springs. ~half a coil on each corner should be good. No need to be exact

And I would have expected better sarcasm than this from a so called senior member

I only know the basics about suspension setups, hence my post on a public forum asking a very (albeit newbie) but as far as I'm concerned genuine question.

My question is regarding compressing the springs NOT using spring compressors (or clamps, which squeeze a couple of coils together to reduce the height) As I understand it, removing the springs, heating then compressing 1" and allowing to settle would in effect retain the same spring rate as before. If a spring is rated at 1,000lb/in, then that's effectively saying a force of 1,000lb's will reduce the spring height by 1". If the number of coils in the spring remain the same but it is just compressed 1" less, then surely a force of 1,000lb's will reduce the spring height by a further 1" (give or take, as I believe most springs are progressive) If the springs were "clamped", then I could understand it changing the spring rate as there is zero movement in a couple of coils.

The downside that I would imagine, is heating/compressing the spring would likely alter the structural integrity of the metal in the coils and therefore become more brittle.

For those who wish to answer my question seriously, would (heating and compressing) the factory springs (NOT using spring compressors/clamps) work in this case? Can anyone see any further downsides of this?

Cheers bro. I'm now considering H&R due too

1. Seeing the stance from this post... exactly what I'm after

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/h-r-springs-your-lgt-30471.html

2. Reading this long but very interesting post on the H&R site...

Technical Orientation

Springs are the workhorse of the suspension system. The springs support the weight of the chassis, including passengers and load. The springs function as a cushion over irregular road surfaces. They also help control body roll, brake dive and rear squatting on acceleration.

Springs rates, or spring stiffness, greatly influence the handling characteristics of the chassis. Springs that are too soft will give a cushy ride, causing the vehicle to wallow in turns. A soft suspension will also tend to bottom out and produce a floating feeling at high speeds. At the other end of the spectrum, springs that are too stiff will give a harsh ride and reduce traction on rough-road surfaces.

Spring rates are the key factor in balance of the complete chassis. This leads to the debate between "linear" and "progressive" spring rates. There's no mystery about progressive springs: A progressive spring has a variable rate increase throughout its compression stroke. For example a progressive spring with a starting rate of 200 pounds per inch for the first inch of compression and an end rate of 400 pounds per inch for the next two inches of compression would then equal a load of 1000 pounds.

A linear spring rate has one rate throughout its deflection. This means, if you have 300 pounds per inch spring rate, it takes 300 pounds to compress that spring one inch. A 300 pounds per inch linear spring, compressed three inches, would equal a load of 900 pounds. As you can see, one progressive spring can do the work of two or more linear springs. This is a big advantage in modern automotive chassis design, fulfilling the needs of today's discerning customers.

So why are linear springs still popular? Linear springs are readily available and inexpensive, allowing most race teams to use several different sets depending on track conditions. Linear springs are also easy to work with because the spring rate never changes, allowing for quick chassis set-up. This user friendly appeal is why so many chassis tuners are critical of progressive rate springs. These chassis tuners do not have the know-how to use progressive rate springs, or if they do have the knowledge, the manufacturer that they use is not capable of producing the design specified. Springs with a high linear rate would be used on a smooth racetrack, while on a rough or bumpy road course; you would use a softer spring rate. Since many racetracks have different road surfaces a suspension that is adaptive to changing road surfaces is desired. Progressive rate springs can offer a chassis tuner the means to achieve a compliant suspension in the rough and a tight suspension for high-speed turns.

Another issue that adds to the debate between "Linear" and "Progressive" rate springs, is that when most spring manufacturers say that their springs are progressive they are not! Springs may be wound progressively, but that does not mean that they function progressively. Some suspension springs are wound progressively but function as a linear spring. These springs can be called "dual-stage" coils, but are generally referred to as springs with "dead" or "inactive" coils. Dead or inactive coils are coils that are in contact with adjacent coils at loaded height. Inactive coils do nothing but give the spring enough free-length to stay tight in the spring perches at full rebound (when the tires and wheels are hanging in the air like when the car is on a lift). A spring that is wound with inactive coils and no progressive coils that are active, is actually working as a linear-rate spring. This is why when you call a spring manufacturer for spring rates for your application you must ask, "What is the actual working spring rate?" This ensures that you do not just get numbers quoted from a design sheet. For example: A design sheet may have rates of 69lbs. per inch, to 160lbs. per inch, to 220lbs. per inch. When the actual rate is 170lbs. per inch to 220lbs. per inch. As you can see, getting the correct information is important in making a true comparison.

Each spring design has its own market. The following examples show how important the correct spring can influence chassis dynamics. Progressive springs on a front wheel drive streetcar, will deliver a great ride while cruising, and sportive handling when the vehicle is driven hard. When the same car with progressive springs in the rear is used for all out racing, too much weight transfers to the rear axle, causing the front end to lift and the front tires to spin. Therefore, a linear rate rear spring is desired in a front wheel drive racing car. In a rear wheel drive automobile, this rear end loading, with a progressive rear spring, will reduce wheel spin and increase traction.

Springs come in many different forms. Commonly used types include leaf springs, which are used at the rear axle of automotive suspensions, consisting of several layers of flexible metallic strips joined to act as a single unit. Torsion bars are straight bars, which function like a coil spring. These are mainly found in front suspensions and consist of a calibrated, specially hardened metal bar that twists during suspension travel.

Coil springs, also known as helical or spiral springs are the most frequently used springs in general automotive suspension. The technical name for coil springs is helical springs. The name, "helical" comes from the word helix, defined as a three dimensional curve that lies on a cylinder or cone and cuts the elements at a constant angle. A progressive spring would be a double helical spring.

Springs are available in many different levels of performance and quality. Choosing a spring with the ride height you desired and level of performance you demand, balanced with the quality and durability you expect, can be challenging. Most people are content to achieve a "look" in lowering, and the "feel" in handling, at a cost they can afford. The more enduring principal in spring selection is the quality and durability of a dynamic suspension component. It is critical in today's competitive market to offer high quality spring sets. With so many choices in the spring market, a small business cannot compensate for lost time and profits, when customers return with quality problems. The spring retailer must be able to sell springs, which will not sag, fatigue, or lose their coating. There is considerable value in purchasing a superior quality spring. That value lies in a well engineered, durable product, which will perform consistently and trouble free.

 

 

 

H&R Springs: The Quality Story

H&R Springs are made in Germany. While design work, testing and pre-production analysis are performed in the U.S., the strict German testing protocol is adhered to, ensuring absolutely the finest product obtainable. From the start, H&R Springs (founded by namesakes, Herr Werner Heine and Herr Heinz Remmen) have been the industry leader for quality and new ideas, continuously setting new performance standards.

More than 20 years ago, H&R Springs was the first spring manufacturer to introduce T.Ü.V. to the European market. T.Ü.V. (Technischer Überwachungs Verein) is a German Government agency that regulates automotive products to maintain motor vehicle safety standards. In Germany, no automotive modifications are allowed unless that part has been approved for use by T.Ü.V. T.Ü.V. approvals require precise descriptions of the materials, production methods and quality assurance details. Loose sample springs must be readily available for laboratory testing, load compression curves, and spring rate force at any time. The T.Ü.V. also fits springs into vehicles for extensive test-drives. The test car is tested in fully loaded and empty modes, and at normal and race speeds. It is only upon successful completion of these tests that a T.Ü.V. Approval Certificate is issued.

Initially, it was necessary to convince the German bureaucracy that a lowering spring could be used safely. Herr Heine and Herr Remmen, both steadfast automobile enthusiasts accepted the challenge. Working closely with the German agency T.Ü.V., H&R proved their quality, consistency and increased safety and the springs were certified. While other spring manufactures and chassis tuning companies claimed that T.Ü.V. would revoke H&R's certifications and nothing would come of the spring lowering market in Germany, H&R Springs was establishing a completely new market. So while Heine and Remmen were at the Nürburgring testing and developing new suspensions other spring manufactures were making springs from die stamping machines. It was more than three years later that other manufacturers entered the lowering spring market. H&R Springs Germany with their fine product actually has boosted the whole automotive spring market. By being the first, and offering all high quality products, H&R created consumer confidence in the lowering spring market. This allowed other spring manufacturers to enter the market with ease, relying on costly advertising campaigns to get their name out.

H&R Springs is always introducing new industry standards. At the 1993 International Motor Show in Essen, Germany, H&R Springs introduced automotive suspension kits and spring sets with A.B.E. certification. A.B.E. means Allgemeine Betriebs - Erlaubnis. This is a special approval, which was not thought possible for an aftermarket spring. Introduction of A.B.E. certified spring sets shocked the rest of the aftermarket spring industry because A.B.E. approval goes beyond the normal T.Ü.V. approval.

As mentioned before, prior to the sale of a product for installation on a vehicle in Germany, it must be T.Ü.V. approved. After purchasing the automotive product, the vehicle owner must arrange for installation, then make an appointment with T.Ü.V. for testing and documentation of the modification. The car owner may have to take a day off of work for this testing and must also pay an additional fee of about $200.00 to $300.00 to T.Ü.V. for this documentation process. Once the purchaser has successfully completed these procedures, he must carry the complete T.Ü.V. documentation in the glove box of that car.

The higher standard of an A.B.E. certification means that the purchaser can simply install the springs and maintain the paperwork in the glove compartment of the modified vehicle. The nuisance and added expense of the normal T.Ü.V. procedure are passe for the consumer of A.B.E.-certified products. A.B.E. approval is only granted after a great deal of paperwork. German government inspectors review all parameters of spring product development. All spring designs, testing machines, spring wire alloys, heat treating, shot peening, zinc-phosphate and electrostatic powder coating, must meet A.B.E. specifications. Continuing quality control is of the utmost importance because an A.B.E. approved product can be subject to surprise inspection at any time. During the inspection, any quantity of the product can be removed from stock and tested at the A.B.E. laboratory. If a product fails an A.B.E. test, certification can be revoked for all of that companies A.B.E. approved products.

Having ISO9001 approval confirms H&R's commitment to quality. ISO is an independent agency with internationally recognized manufacturing quality standards. To be accepted by ISO 9001, the design and complete manufacturing process must be continuously maintained to specified quality standards. ISO 9002 is a lower standard, which means you can only manufacture springs. 100% of H&R Springs are made to ISO 9001 standards; no other spring manufacturer has these qualifications!

H&R Springs also meet or exceed D.I.N. (Deutsche Industrie Norm), and SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers), engineering specifications for helical, cold wound springs. All these quality levels can only be obtained by precision design and production facilities.

 

 

 

Design: Form and Function

Design starts with an understanding of the automotive enthusiast's needs. These needs are considered by H&R engineers and are integrated into the design of each particular prototype spring set.

At this point, prototype spring sets are developed and are subjected to grueling test sessions where all facets of the chassis dynamics are analyzed. Key elements involved in development included ride height and spring rate, which are dictated by the handling characteristics of a stock chassis, stock suspension limitations, tire and fender well clearance. When a design has been finalized, the manufacturing planning process begins. Manufacturing high quality automotive springs can only be achieved with true understanding of the requirement of the correct metal alloy wire and modulus-elasticity or spring wire resilience.

H&R Springs only uses superior quality from the precision mills Thyssen, DWK, and Krupp Steel Works in Germany. The materials used are a special spring chromium-silicon (CrSi) for wire diameters up to 16mm, and special spring chromium-vanadium (50-CrV 4) for wire diameters above 17mm. This special spring steel is used exclusively because of its service life than any other wire tested. These materials ensure a defect-free function over the entire service life. If you compare wire material alone, other spring brands wire would not come close to the quality of H&R wire alloy. H&R Spring production is a very refined, time-honored tradition with state-of-the-art technology.

All H&R Springs are cold wound on precision Wafios CNC spring coiler. After the coiling process, the springs are heat-treated. This heat treating is very important since the spring is wound from a one ton ring of heat treated wire stock that is about three meters in diameter, and then formed into a small coil spring. This winding process creates heat and stress spikes between the molecules of the wire. The stressed molecule spikes must be realigned. If more than two hours pass prior to heat treatment, the springs lose their resilience. H&R's manufacturing is distinguished from the normal practice because H&R springs receive secondary heat treating or annealing immediately. After tempering, the springs go to grinding. If required, the spring ends are wet ground flat. For example, the top of front Mustang and Mercedes springs are ground flat for precise fitment.

Next, the springs are shot peened. Shot peening is a process that works on the thin surface layer. The spring surface is blasted with metal shot moving at very high speed. This blasting or peening action of the shot removes surface imperfections and relieves internal stresses. Shot peening technique is only useful if the blasting action is directed to the area of the highest stress, which is the inside of a coil spring. So important is the shot peening for a cold wound coil spring that service life is extended by more than 200%. Only finer quality spring manufacturers automatically shot peen their spring products. Most other spring brands just say they do.

The next step in high quality manufacturing is pre-setting the spring. Pre-setting is when the spring is completely set to block. This is where the spring is compressed so all the coils are touching. This gives the spring a permanent set and will not sag during its service life. A pre-set spring can also be referred to as a block resistance spring. In production, a spring is actually made to a longer free length than required because the spring gets shorter during the setting process, thus bringing it down to the design specifications. All H&R Springs are pre-set using an exclusive Super Blok' spring setting procedure. The springs are set 4 times or to specific time duration depending upon spring design. Some manufacturers do not set their springs, or if they do, they set them only once. There are more springs on the market today that are not "block resistant," than are "block resistant." After setting, the springs are 100% tested on an exclusive H&R designed tester for ride-height and spring-rate according to design specifications. This is the final step before coating. H&R Springs utilize intensive quality standards for spring deflection testing, surpassing all industry and government standards.

Now the springs are ready for the coating procedure. H&R has developed a unique state-of-the-art, comprehensive finishing system. The springs are hung on a conveyer track from start-to-finish. When the spring is placed on the hook it becomes electrolytic charged and attracts opposite charged cleansing and coating particles. First, the springs are cleaned and degreased with a non-aggressive alkaline solution. Then a zinc-phosphate coating is applied as a base for the paint. While still on conveyer, the spring is dried. From the drying cycle the spring goes directly to the spray booth. The opposed charged polyurethane epoxy powder coating is manually applied. Only in this manner can a coating thickness of 30 - 50mm be guaranteed. In the case of automated spray booths, irregular coating thicknesses from inside to the outside of the spring are common. A coating that is too thick tends to result in cracks in the coating during motion and could cause corrosion.

The curing process is the next step. The spring travels to the oven and cured at a temperature between +374 degrees F and +392 degrees F. Temperature is critical because if it's too low the powder coating will not cure properly. Temperatures that are too high will reduce the shot peening effect. The speed of the conveyer is precisely timed according to the dimension of the material.

A spring manufacturer can only regulate powder coating curing temperatures, correct phosphating techniques, and coating thicknesses if they are all done in-house. When the springs move out of the curing oven they are removed from the conveyor track, and the spot where the hook was holding the spring is painted by hand. The spring is now completely protected from the elements. No spring manufacturer in the U.S. does this last, very detailed step. Springs finished with this coating procedure can resist corrosion in a salt spray test in excess of 500 hours without any blemish to the coating. The salt spray test is where a warm salt slurry solution is sprayed at a constant pressure onto the spring to check corrosion resistance. If the correct phosphating procedure is not followed, the coating will fail and the spring will rust in less than 120 hours in the salt spray test. H&R test all coatings before use; they must pass before they are considered for use.

Since the proper pre-treatment, coating application, curing, and final detailing steps are labor intensive, coating companies in the U.S. may choose not to employ these techniques to high overhead costs.

The springs are now stamped with designation marks to identify them. The finished product is now carefully packaged into specially engineered containers during shipment to the United States to prevent transit damage.

H&R Special Springs is proud of each spring released because they will always be manufactured with careful attention to design and quality control.

At H&R Special Springs, we welcome all your technical spring questions since we have nothing to conceal. Other spring companies may not want you to ask about the wire they use, or their production facility. And they may not be able to answer questions about their coating process.

H&R Springs can fulfill all your spring needs! We have several different choices of spring sets for popular applications.

When you purchase an H&R Spring, you are buying the highest quality spring available! Springs that have been engineered for the enthusiast to deliver the best performance driving feel without sacrificing ride quality.

H&R Springs - Design, Performance, Quality, Confidence, Durability!

What could be better than some pink(s)?

 

Amirite?

No, you're wrong.

Coil overs. But $$$ too much.

Hey OP, I just lowered my spec B on tein S and I must say I'm liking the overall improvement. The spec B has the same blisteins JDM GTs have and IMO, the tein's were designed for JDM GTs so I guess that's why they have such poor reviews from US LGT members riding on KYBs.

My previous car was a 335i coupe and when I got the LGT, I really missed the BMW's handling characteristics. But after I installed the springs, the car feels much better and I actually enjoy the stiffer ride. I personally don't feel it's a harsh ride and actually feels better than my 335i coupe with sports package. Hope my review helps!

Hey OP, I just lowered my spec B on tein S and I must say I'm liking the overall improvement. The spec B has the same blisteins JDM GTs have and IMO, the tein's were designed for JDM GTs so I guess that's why they have such poor reviews from US LGT members riding on KYBs.

 

My previous car was a 335i coupe and when I got the LGT, I really missed the BMW's handling characteristics. But after I installed the springs, the car feels much better and I actually enjoy the stiffer ride. I personally don't feel it's a harsh ride and actually feels better than my 335i coupe with sports package. Hope my review helps!

I can tell from personal expieriance that they handle worse then the oem springs. A quick turn on the street might lead you to think they are good but when they are really pushed to the limit they stink on ice