Trouble with brakes - 05 LGT

Last fall I had some mods done to my car. One of them was a new set of rotors and pads.

 

I did Hawk HPS pads and Frozen Rotors.

 

I was hoping for SOME improvement in the feel of the brake pedal. No change happened.

 

So then, this spring, I swapped the stock rubber brake lines with Goodridge SS lines. Here again, I was hoping that the pedal firmness would start EARLIER in the travel of the pedal.

 

No dice.

 

So, a buddy of mine who owns a couple year old M3 and an A4 that he tracks locally, said "did you bed in the pads?" I said I didn't. He recommended the bed in procedure from stop tech's web page.

 

So, a couple days ago I went out and did that.

 

http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_bedinstock.shtml

 

After re-reading the procedure, I stopped bedding them in a little too early it sounds like. I stopped after that first round of fading, and they haven't gotten any better. I guess I'll have to go out and try again.

 

Whoops, answered my own question.

basically that's it.

 

I just do it about 5 times, 50-5mph in rapid succession then drive for a mile or so with out stopping.

 

I wonder if you can ride the brakes on the highway and get the same result ?

 

Others will chime in soon.

Well, I tried the bed in procedure again and the pedal has not improved.

 

Any other thoughts on how I could move the initial bite of the pads closer towards me in terms of travel of the brake pedal? Heal toe downshifting is a pain right now.

Steel-spun or kevlar-spun hoses and bleeding till you bleed!

 

But be aware that the calipers are floating calipers so make sure that the pins they float on are cleaned well and correctly lubricated. (both front and rear)

 

Otherwise the caliper will "stick" and make more wear on one pad than the other and at the same time cause problems.

 

And of course - going for different calipers (Brembo) can also be an option.

I'm beginning to wonder if your looking for more performance then stock calipers can give you.

 

Not having driven your car, it's hard to compare.

 

Have you posted this question in the suspension/brake forum ?

I use DBA Rotors (Sloted) for Brembo with Ferrodo pads and believe me is another world !!! U might think about to use it, and also I might add that I never buy braided break lines, this upgrade I run it is only with factory break line. Also make sure you bleed those lines well, it make the difference between stop and die... >=)

Thread moved to a more appropriate forum

I'm beginning to wonder if your looking for more performance then stock calipers can give you.

 

Not having driven your car, it's hard to compare.

 

Have you posted this question in the suspension/brake forum ?

 

I don't think that is the case. I drove a brand new 08 2.5i two years ago when I was first in the hunt for a Legacy. Those brakes were AMAZING. The initial bite of the pad was very much further towards the driver than mine are, and the total modulation required to stop the car was half of what mine is.

 

I'm beginning to wonder if I have a master cylinder problem?

 

I did bleed the brakes when I installed the brained lines, BTW. But the air just kept coming and coming. We surmised that it was coming from the very poor fitting master cylinder bleed cap that I bought from Motul products for their power bleeder.

 

Also, in terms of brake feel, here is how I can best describe it. When I got the car (about 1.5 years old and 30K miles) I used to be able to stop the car on the level by pressing on the brake pedal such that it did NOT go past the accelerator pedal. Now, I have to press the brake pedal harder, thereby pushing it past the "resting position" of the accelerator. This causes my foot to contort into an uncomfortable position. Plus, the feel of the brakes isn't what it once was. And all that after new rotors, new pads and new lines.

 

To say I'm frustrated is putting it lightly.

Try tapping your caliper with a mallet and re-bleed. Try bleeding again the old fashioned way. Pump 3 times slowly then hold, crack open the screw, close, repeat.

 

Our Wilwood caliper upgrade would upgrade the pedal feel, but I think you have a different underlying issue right now.

I'll have to try that, thanks magnetic1. Now just need to find time to do it! Between watching my 2 year old while mommy goes to school at night and restoring the 67, spare time is something scarce for sure.

The best pedal feel I had was with the stock pads. I've never had a firm feel since then using Endless SSM, SSY, Carbotech XP8, with stainless steel lines and ATE super blue fluid. Car's never lacked for stopping power as I regularly engaged ABS on the track until I switched to r-compound tires.

 

Maybe it's defeatist but I just chalked it up to the inherent brake feel of the car.

The best pedal feel I had was with the stock pads. I've never had a firm feel since then using Endless SSM, SSY, Carbotech XP8, with stainless steel lines and ATE super blue fluid. Car's never lacked for stopping power as I regularly engaged ABS on the track until I switched to r-compound tires.

 

Maybe it's defeatist but I just chalked it up to the inherent brake feel of the car.

 

That was what I was going to suggest at first too, however, after reading his description, it seems as if he still has air somewhere in his lines.

 

When you changed your pads, how did you compress the piston in? Air can be introduced sometimes that way as well. I had a 4runner I recently did and replaced all his calipers and pads. The thing was mushy as hell! Ended up having to tap the caliper with a mallet to dislodge some bubbles, rebled and felt great after that.

 

Also a KEY in bleeding the brakes is not to rapidly pump the pedal.

I didn't install the pads, a local shop did, along with the rotors. A buddy and me did the lines and ATE Super Blue though.

Motive power bleeder for you and DVD for the 2yr old for a bang-up garage evening!

 

Did the power bleeder hold pressure while the cap was on? Probably not a problem with it if it could hold pressure.

 

I second magnetic1's suggestion of going old-school and having a friend pump the pedal for a rebleed.

Make sure you are bleeding in the proper order. Also, your brake pedal itself has some adjustment. Some people who track their WRX or Legacy adjust the pedal so that as soon as it is touched, the pad moves in contact with the rotor. You can remove a lot of "Dead travel" to improve brake feel and performance for hard braking. I believe the service manual has details for this. I have not adjusted the pedal travel on my car yet but it is something I would like to do.

Also, don't just bleed the brakes. You want to do a full flush every 2 years of street driving or every 6 months or less with track driving.

 

We are talking ATE Superblue in the resivoir and pump/bleed until you have the blue flowing out the calipers. Then the next time you flush, you use the Gold and repeat the proceedure. This combined with SS Lines will give you the best pedal feel you are going to get short of going to a fixed caliper like the Wilwoods or Brembos.

 

I noticed a big difference when I switched from my OEM Calipers with HP+ pads and SS lines to the Brembos in the front with HP+ pads.

 

-mike

 

PS: Franz, got a link or quick desription on that brake adjustment?

Just a reminder I have not tried this myself yet but see if this is helpful (page 2):

http://www.boxerturbo.com/legacy/Brake Pedal.pdf

 

Be careful not to adjust it too much.. you don't want your brakes to be dragging or your brakes applied with your tail lights not illuminating.

Swap pads and bed the new ones in. I had stockers which were, by my standards, scary. I switched to HPS which were better, but still not good. Currently beginning use of Carbotech XP8s, and will happily report back. So far, it's a night and day improvement.

Just a reminder I have not tried this myself yet but see if this is helpful (page 2):

http://www.boxerturbo.com/legacy/Brake Pedal.pdf

 

Be careful not to adjust it too much.. you don't want your brakes to be dragging or your brakes applied with your tail lights not illuminating.

 

I'm not in front of my car right now, so forgive me. I'm assuming that you're implying that I should increase the rod length here?

Well guys, I bled my brakes this weekend again and life is beautiful. The pedal firmed up, but not too firm. It is exactly where it want it.

 

I didn't think we had any air left in the lines from the last time around, but after bedding in the pads a few times, it is possible that some fluid boiled and added some air to the lines.

 

So, all is well. Just thought I'd report back for those of you that were interested. I'm really glad it was something simple. I just took a little time on Sunday to bleed the brakes, and no additional hardware. I was REALLY not looking forward to buying a set of BBK for the car. I just didn't want to spend that money right now on that car.

Glad it worked out for you, I hate to throw parts at a problem until the basics (and inexpensive) solutions have been addressed.

 

-mike

Yeah, thanks, me too. The feel of the pedal is great. Very happy.