Legacybt 6mt Compromised Autocross Build

SA is right, and the shops you talked to probably dont do real suspension tuning. ther is nothing wrong with running -2.0 camber on the street, especially if you like to drive in a spirited fashion. It will make the car more stable, and increase cornering grip. the only downside is the tire wear issue. I daily drove my LGT with -3.0 camber all around.

 

As for the stiffer rear springs, you are doing it wrong. Save your money, even if its only $50.

There's a good chance that's the case, but I'm doing my best to find the top local shops.

How much extra would you guess that costs you in tires per year? We end up paying a minimum of 1.5x as much for tires up here in Canada, so it's a real consideration for me. It's encouraging to hear those settings being run on the street, however.

^that's actually not good doing that unless you verify on an alignment rack that both street and race settings don't screw up your toe. You are better off just leaving the plate and a given setting and having it aligned. Just because you move the plates the same distance, does not mean that the toe changes equally.

I'll see how much camber I can dial in on Thursday. If I need more, it'll probably have to wait until next year when I can free up some budget. I'm guessing I'd need to run the Whiteline rear arms to dial in what I'm looking for in the rear, but I'm not excited to use them in our salty, snowy winters...

I was thinking of going a little bit lower on the coilovers before getting the car aligned - my last alignment shop wasn't able to get any more than -0.8 degrees of camber in the rear at the current ride height. Any advice on whether I should be going lower?

Not sure how low you are now, but with 400lb springs you shouldnt go too low, nor do you need to. the whiteline rear arms are just what you need, and the bushings are poly so they should be ok in the winter. Id just put anti-seize on all the adjustment threads so they dont get stuck.

As for tires, they will last depending on how often you race, and being in canada, you probably have winter tires, so you wont be driving on them year round. if you are concerned with wear, get the Dunlop Z2 star Specs. They will last a little longer than the bridgestone Re-71R with a small sacrifice on max grip. If you only autocross moderately, your tires should last 2 years.

Bottom line is, if you have to cut costs due to a budget, tires is the last thing you skimp on. All the other parts we talk about, are second to tires. If all you can do is get a set of tires and and alignment each year, that's all you really need.

I got the car aligned last Thursday and made it out to Autocross on Saturday. It was running -0.6 and -0.7 front camber before, and -0.8/-0.8 rear. The shop was able to get to -1.4/-1.4F and -0.8/-0.8R, and the car felt way better after.

The tech was nice enough to bring me in and give me some advice on setups - he showed me the limitations of my current hardware, and recommended vorschlag camber plates and whiteline rear arms - they've installed many and haven't seen a single failure. Unfortunately this isn't in the cards financially right now, so I've started designing some front camber plates and will modify my rear control arms in the fall to be able to dial in more camber and make the most of the NT-01's.

The car felt much more neutral out on course, and rotated around the corners far better than it did last time out. This is probably a combination of the alignment, stiffer rear springs, and seat time. I'm not sure how much it improved my times - practice will have the biggest impact - but it was sure more fun!

Not sure how low you are now, but with 400lb springs you shouldnt go too low, nor do you need to. the whiteline rear arms are just what you need, and the bushings are poly so they should be ok in the winter. Id just put anti-seize on all the adjustment threads so they dont get stuck.

 

As for tires, they will last depending on how often you race, and being in canada, you probably have winter tires, so you wont be driving on them year round. if you are concerned with wear, get the Dunlop Z2 star Specs. They will last a little longer than the bridgestone Re-71R with a small sacrifice on max grip. If you only autocross moderately, your tires should last 2 years.

 

Bottom line is, if you have to cut costs due to a budget, tires is the last thing you skimp on. All the other parts we talk about, are second to tires. If all you can do is get a set of tires and and alignment each year, that's all you really need.

I chatted with other guys out on the course, and they have much the same advice as you. I'll take it to heart and start budgeting for a good set of summers.

Bump! Great write up on your car love to possibly see it in person perhaps one day. Any updates on the car in the last couple months ?

Thanks!

Nothing to report for the last few months, but there is a pile of new parts building up in storage...

And I purchased a 330whp distraction/backup car (soon to be un-stanced):

http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=219448&stc=1&d=1447088430

http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=219449&stc=1&d=1447088430

I think that is actually a great ride height as long as the suspension isn't too soft and you rub everywhere. I bet thats an absolute blast though!

It looks great, but is horrible to drive. Totally skittish around corners and brutally uncomfortable - it's on the bump stops. Gonna have to raise ol' gal.

^agreed, it just needs better tires.

Haha yes it does. The white ES Tarmac and Nitto NT01's are going to be mounted in the spring.

Back to my Legacy:

Whitetiger, I've finally done something that might make you proud - I had a set of 255/40r18 Advan AD08R's mounted today on some recently acquired (traded for my gold Rotas) 18x8.5 +45 Gram Light 57 Max!

Fully sealed, LGT-specific camber plates are being designed during my rare free lunch breaks at work, and I'll be grabbing some adjustable rear arms before mounting the new wheels.

http://i.imgur.com/Zg7MMkU.jpg

Photos and a bundle of suspension and engine mods to follow in the coming months.

AD08r's are ok, but they are last generation tires. the current tires of the day for street/touring classes will out pace them by a good margin (re-71r and rivals S).

the AD08r's are about equivalent to the non star spec dunlop Z2's.

AD08r's are ok, but they are last generation tires. the current tires of the day for street/touring classes will out pace them by a good margin (re-71r and rivals S).

 

the AD08r's are about equivalent to the non star spec dunlop Z2's.

All other cars in SM will out pace me anyway, I'm just stoked for a change from my 225/40r18 General Tire G-max on Sport Edition wheels!

I saved about $700 by going with these tires vs my other options, so I'm okay with being back a generation.

yes. they certainly will be a huge step up from where you were.

if you have a spare set of wheels, keep an eye out in the autox community for used sets of hoosiers. Since you are in SM, you can run them. they will blow your mind.

There's always used R-comps for sale on bimmerforums in the classifieds section.

You can also volunteer for working a race weekend at your local track and many of the teams will sell you their scuffs for pennies on the dollar. A lot of them will also mount and balance them for you.

Well I guess it's due time for an update. Things have happened.

I love engine noise. I do not love high RPM drone for hours on end on the highway. Passengers complain and I refuse to take the easy way out and switch to a quieter exhaust. Fuel mileage will also improve, I keep telling myself. Thusly justified, I made the switch to an '04 USDM STi transmission.

Said transmission turned out to have a be ill - stricken with a fever of the transfer case. Symptoms included loud groaning from under the shifter. The wagon was soon where it belonged, up on jack stands:

http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=233700&stc=1&d=1468398634

Tarped, tented, and ready for the Vancouver 'summer' weather we've been having.

I tackled the transfer case bearings without pulling the transmission again, because, well.. I apparently like time spent on the rough, wet concrete of the driveway. Pro tip: don't do this with a 6-speed unless you have access to a welder & slide hammer, or that fancy factory tool specific for one very difficult blind hole bearing race.

Welder method:

http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=233701&stc=1&d=1468398634

Since I had time off work, I decided to tackle some of the side projects I keep adding to the list of personal honey-do's. Namely, spec B aluminum arms, Brembos, Various chassis bracing, RCE lowering camber plates, Whiteline camber arms and bushings, and a few other things to try to squeeze my 255/40R18 tires that have been teasing me from their dishonourable pile on the garage floor.

http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=233703&stc=1&d=1468398634

I'm curious to see if the unsprung weight reduction makes a big difference, or if I just ended up with some sweet legacy bling.

I also took a chunk of time out of my automotive staycation to fab up some modified trailing arm mounts, shifting the mounting holes 7/8" rearward and adding a little toe to my geometry-challenged wagon.

http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=233704&stc=1&d=1468399003

http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=233702&stc=1&d=1468398634

I'll update with how the altered mounts work with the existing suspension when I finish re-installing everything - I might have been better off taking a calculate and model first approach instead of the 'just give'r' method I went for.

TTFN

Johan / girodisc did the rear arm mounting point modification by drilling new holes in the bracket to re center the rear wheel.

Will be curious to hear how this works for you.

I had a conversation with tssfab about building a rear suspension frame for the lgt that would use 08+ sti suspension bits. This would have relocated the rear arm to allow running any size wheel / tire. Besides initial fab cost, there was the "what happens to the suspension geometry " question. With your mad welding skills, it might be worth a look.

I'm curious to see if the unsprung weight reduction makes a big difference, or if I just ended up with some sweet legacy bling.

only if you have a lighter wheel tire package and brake assembly, otherwise its just bling.

Johan / girodisc did the rear arm mounting point modification by drilling new holes in the bracket to re center the rear wheel.

 

Will be curious to hear how this works for you.

 

I had a conversation with tssfab about building a rear suspension frame for the lgt that would use 08+ sti suspension bits. This would have relocated the rear arm to allow running any size wheel / tire. Besides initial fab cost, there was the "what happens to the suspension geometry " question. With your mad welding skills, it might be worth a look.

I hooked up (or at least tried) the rest of the arms today - things did not work out. With stock bushings, there might be enough compliance to shove everything rearward, but my pillowball and poly bushings don't allow it. At full droop, the toe, camber and upper arms were on some harsh angles, and it got worse to the point of binding when the trailing arm moved up. The shock would also be under load (pulled rearward) through its range of motion and would definitely see a decrease in lifespan.

Additionally, the bump stop would have to be shoved rearward along with the rest of the arm - an impact would have the bump stop hit off-centre on the upper arm, putting some serious rotational torque on the arm.

All in all, not recommended. Perhaps one day I'll look into the sti rear subframe option, but for now I'm going back to the ol fender hacking method.

I got everything installed a week or two ago. This 04 sti transmission is no good, so the search begins for yet another. I'm getting good at swapping 6 speeds on the driveway, at least.

Squeezing the 255/40R18's has proved to be a challenge, as expected. They rub like crazy, so next week I'm renting a fender roller and making them fit. RIP fenders.

I went back to non-modified trailing arm mounts, but slotted the holes to allow for toe adjustment since I don't own the whiteline toe arms. I was able to finally dial in the alignment settings I want: 0 toe all around, -2.8 degrees front camber, 6.5 degrees caster (spec B arms add a degree or two, and the whiteline ALK adds even more), and -1.8 degrees camber in the rear. I can finally make good use of wider tires.

I also installed a K2 Gear Spec Neo Dual exhaust while the car was in the air. Damn it sounds fine - not much louder than the Borla, and a much more 'agressive subaru' tone.

http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=234654&stc=1&d=1469805997

I never expected such a wide tire to fit in the Legacy... I'm surprised

It doesn't fit yet.. we'll see.

Legacy has a lot of room if there if you set your suspension up the right way or flare it. I could fit a 19x10.5 +35 without hitting the struts (very close) which is 168.35mm of back spacing. I reworked the front suspension by cambering out the bolt at the knuckle all the way and then using the camber plate on my coilovers to dial it back into normal specs. Nice part about that is that the wheel pulls in sooner as it travels up and with a roll center kit it will almost perfectly retain the degree of camber for 1.5-2.0" of wheel travel. In the rear I did the same thing as you moving the rear wheel back by modifying the trailing arm link but I used arms that used hyme joints with misalignment spacers so the added rearward angle on the arms did not effect them. My camber settings were -2.5deg all way round

To fit my tires 265/30/19 I did a little stretch so the tires side profile matched the fender flares to prevent rubbing issues, get a better stance, and I didn't need steamrollers on my car. I ran a hubcentric 25mm spacers (extra set of studs on the spacer) in the rear and a 15mm spacer on the front with extended studs also hubcentric. With the flares I was allowed to run 143.35mm of rear poke and 133.35mm of front poke from the mounting face of the rotor. No spacers would have allowed a 295 wide tire or a 18x12 +20ish wheel with like a 285/295 wide tire on it and have a little stretch to match the flares. The flares were about a 2" (or 50mm) extension to the car so with a roll and stretch will get you about 20mm giving you aprox. 271.7mm or 10" of space inside the wheel from strut to wheel arch so a 255/265 tire depending on brand should fit in there if you have coilovers so there is less risk of hitting the lower spring perch.

Its definitely doable and without rubbing or stupid camber.

Oh and word of advice. Take a heavy flat object wrapped in some cloth (to not damaged the paint) to use as a dolly and a hammer and fold the inner edge of the wheel arch totally flat. This will make stretching your fenders (if need be) way easier and way less likely of warping the metal because it will drastically increase the strength of your wheel arches when you start pushin on them. You will chip the paint off when you fold the metal flat so I took a razor blade and cut the paint at the outer 45deg down of the rounded edge of the arch where you fold it so when it chips off it breaks only on the inside where you cant see and then for you a silver fat sharpie or mask and spray paint will do you solid.

Johann

Legacy has a lot of room if there if you set your suspension up the right way or flare it. I could fit a 19x10.5 +35 without hitting the struts (very close) which is 168.35mm of back spacing. I reworked the front suspension by cambering out the bolt at the knuckle all the way and then using the camber plate on my coilovers to dial it back into normal specs. Nice part about that is that the wheel pulls in sooner as it travels up and with a roll center kit it will almost perfectly retain the degree of camber for 1.5-2.0" of wheel travel. In the rear I did the same thing as you moving the rear wheel back by modifying the trailing arm link but I used arms that used hyme joints with misalignment spacers so the added rearward angle on the arms did not effect them. My camber settings were -2.5deg all way round

 

To fit my tires 265/30/19 I did a little stretch so the tires side profile matched the fender flares to prevent rubbing issues, get a better stance, and I didn't need steamrollers on my car. I ran a hubcentric 25mm spacers (extra set of studs on the spacer) in the rear and a 15mm spacer on the front with extended studs also hubcentric. With the flares I was allowed to run 143.35mm of rear poke and 133.35mm of front poke from the mounting face of the rotor. No spacers would have allowed a 295 wide tire or a 18x12 +20ish wheel with like a 285/295 wide tire on it and have a little stretch to match the flares. The flares were about a 2" (or 50mm) extension to the car so with a roll and stretch will get you about 20mm giving you aprox. 271.7mm or 10" of space inside the wheel from strut to wheel arch so a 255/265 tire depending on brand should fit in there if you have coilovers so there is less risk of hitting the lower spring perch.

 

Its definitely doable and without rubbing or stupid camber.

 

Oh and word of advice. Take a heavy flat object wrapped in some cloth (to not damaged the paint) to use as a dolly and a hammer and fold the inner edge of the wheel arch totally flat. This will make stretching your fenders (if need be) way easier and way less likely of warping the metal because it will drastically increase the strength of your wheel arches when you start pushin on them. You will chip the paint off when you fold the metal flat so I took a razor blade and cut the paint at the outer 45deg down of the rounded edge of the arch where you fold it so when it chips off it breaks only on the inside where you cant see and then for you a silver fat sharpie or mask and spray paint will do you solid.

 

Johann

Thanks for the input - the hyme joint solution definitely would have solved the binding I had on the arms. Good to hear you had a brilliant way to solve it! As it stands, it was a good thing that I didn't keep the modified trailing arm link, as I ran out of room in the rear of the fender liner under full compression.

Last night I was able to dial everything in without rubbing - taking the same approach as you on the camber plates. I had rubbing on the coilover perch until I did that. Camber settings are -2.8F and -1.8R.

I rented an eastwood fender roller and rolled and pulled the front fenders, using a heat gun to prevent cracking. I wasn't patient enough and it cracked on one of the fenders anyway - I'll take your tip and use some touchup paint to prevent rust. The rears were more difficult, and I had to pop off the plastic piece at the front of the wheel arch and roll the metal in behind that flat, and then pull it out a good bit using the fender roller. I then took a dremel with a cutoff wheel and trimmed the plastic piece, as well as a little bit of the rear bumper where it protrudes into the wheel well. I plan on inserting some sort of weather guard in the new gap between the fender liner and body to prevent dirt/water/rust from building where it shouldn't. Clearance was checked by unbolting the lower shock bolt and jacking up the wheel until it was riding on the bump stop to make sure I don't rub under full compression.

I'm also running into extra fender clearancing issues because of the high profile of the tire (255/40R18 instead of the usual 255/35R18), as well as the large tread width of the AD08R's. For reference, the wheels are 18x8.5 +45, and have maybe 3-4 mm of inboard clearance in the rear, and less front. We'll see how things work once it's back on the ground!