Turn signal flasher relay issuses

So I purchased switchback LED replacement lamps for my front turn signals. I purchased them from iJDMtoy. I installed these and they worked fine, with the exception of the hyperblink that I expected to have.

 

To remedy the hyperblink, I purchased a one touch turn signal relay from WebElectric Products: HERE

 

I installed the relay, gave it a quick test and it all appeared to be fine. When I went back outside to head to dinner, I unlocked the car and the disarm light flash barely functioned. Noticing this I tried it again and it didn't work at all. I put the flasher through the paces again and came up with a few issues:

• Left turn signal functioned fine
  
• Hazards worked fine
  
• Right turn signal turned both signals on
  
• Arm/Disarm flash does not work at all
  

 

To troubleshoot this I tried to install the stock relay yesterday. When I plug the stock relay back in, the hazards are on continuously. I even disconnected the hazard switch and had no change for the stock relay.

 

So now neither relay works properly. I left the new OTTS one installed so I can drive the car with crippled signals. Now it even the OTTS relay actuates the turn signals when the car is off. I've checked all fueses and they check out. My next troubleshooting step is to remove the switchbacks and go back to stock lights. I'll probably purchase another relay to try while waiting for WebElectric to hopefully replace the OTTS relay.

 

I'm at a loss here. I think that the arm/disarm burnt something in the relay or signal circuit. I have no idea what has gone wrong or how to fix it at this point. Any thoughts, suggestions, or help would be greatly appreciated!

Edited March 23, 2013 by bCaff

Update...

 

I just put the stock lamps back in and the stock relay is still having the same issue with the perpetual hazards. I'm going to take the stock relay apart and make sure I don't have a grounding issue with the relay. The funny part is that if I lock the car the arm/disarm flash will take over and then it will go back to hazards. If I have the hazards actually turned on, they override the arm/disarm flashes.

 

Does anyone have a pinout of the stock relay? Or does anyone have a wiring diagram for the steering column and/or the turn signal circuits? I think it's time to buy a factory service manual.

I can't offer any advice, but hope the images help.

Check out this thread.

Thanks for the replies! I've worked through the diagrams and also seen the thread that Delta linked to.

 

Web Electric is going to send me a replacement. I'll give that a try and see if it works. If not I'll probably end up trying one of those Tap Turn relays instead.

 

My issues with the Web Electric product seem to be a hardware problem. However, I still can't trace why the stock relay continuously flashes when I re-installed it. If everything works fine with the new OTTS relay I guess I'll leave well enough alone.

 

I'll post an update when I get the replacement relay later this week.

When you get a stock flasher working in your car, Send me your Web electric flasher, any of 'em but preferably the first one you tried that fried your system and I will send you a free brand new Tapturn flasher (I make 'em).

 

If you can't get the stock flasher working it sounds like you have a short in one or more of the signal control lines going to the flasher, or you have a burnt component in the car's body control unit computer that controls the dis/arm flashing and I would be sorry to hear that's what the Web electric flasher did to your car. As soon as you can find / fix the short issue and do whatever it takes to get a stock flasher working normally for everything, pull it out and put in the Tapturn and put your LEDs back in too and just begin enjoying a rock solid experience with correct signals, hazards, and arm flashes. And convenience signaling!

 

This is not the first Web electric flasher that I've heard frying things, or itself. It just sounds sucky. I want to stick one on my wall, with a sign that says "This is why you get Tapturn."

Edited April 2, 2013 by scottmcphee

By the way, I really know the way stock flashers work quite well and can bench test any kind of failure modes.. So I did. Here are some results that might help you understand and diagnose your stock flasher:

 

Grounding the hazard input (normally done by the hazard switch) puts the flasher into normal speed hazard blinking, even if you have LEDs signal bulbs, this will not hyperblink the way signaling left or right does with LEDs. Hazard mode ignores bulb type and burned out bulbs and always gives 90cpm blinking. Hazard mode works with or without IGN power applied to the flasher.

 

When IGN power is applied, as in when you are driving, the left and right inputs become actively monitored. If you ground a signal direction (normally done by the signal stalk) then you get blinks in that direction. If you have LEDs you get hyperblink. But if you ground both signal inputs when IGN is on, you get hazard mode, as above. And if you have LEDs it will not hyperblink, you get steady 90cpm cycles. This is a fault mode.

 

If you ground both signal inputs with no IGN power also applied, you get nothing.

 

Here's what the body control unit does for arm flashes: it briefly yanks the hazard line to ground, once or twice depending on if you are locking or unlocking. Each yank gives a pulse as it is held down to ground, the flash goes off when it releases the line. If the hazard switch is pressed already when locking the car then you are getting a continuous stream of hazard flashes, and arming the car does nothing extra because BIU is yanking down a line that is already at ground. And ground is ground, the flasher cannot detect or discern what is holding hazard input to ground it just knows to do hazard blinking cycles for as long as it is held there by "anything".

 

I really hope this explanation helps in some way.

Wow, thanks so much scottmcphee! Really helpful info.

 

Here's the latest update. Web electric sent me a new module. I did try the stock relay again and it still had the same issue as before. I installed the new web e in my car after verifying grounds, continuity, and resistances of the connectors and harnesses in the circuits involved. So far the new web e flasher works L R and hazard like it should. Still no arm or disarm response though.

 

When I unplugged the connectors from the BIU I feel like it reset a few things. My seatbelt chime now comes on when I don't remember it coming on before. I think I need to try the stock relay again and see if it will still throw hazards all the time. Still need to verify integrity of the BIU. When I checked ground on pin 8 at the relay there was no continuity to ground.

 

If the stock relay gives issues again I may like you to bench test the stock one to see if the relay is faulty. I have to send the original defective unit back to web electric soon. If I can find a way to go back onto a stock relay I'd be glad to send the current web electric one to you. I won't be able to play with this at all until this weekend unfortunately.

 

BTW, is there a way to enable or disable the arm or disarm flash response in the BiU? Like you can disable the beeping?

There's a pretty easy rig you can try to test if the BIU is functioning fine for dis/arm pulses. You need an LED and a resistor (2kohm) wired in series, connect the anode to +12 batt power found on the flasher harness pin4, the cathode to resistor, and the other side of the resistor to pin8 (hazard input) on the harness. Do this with flasher unplugged, and hazard switch off. Press the hazard switch on to test this LED lights which verifies your rig. Then turn hazard off again, and use remote to lock car. The led should pulse just like you'd expect signals to show. Unlock the car, should show a double pulse on the led. If it does this the biu is fine... Remove rig. Edited April 3, 2013 by scottmcphee

 

BTW, is there a way to enable or disable the arm or disarm flash response in the BiU? Like you can disable the beeping?

 

Well, an easy way is to snip that wire you see on the schematics above, hanging off the side of the "pin8 to hazard switch" connection, this is the line that goes off the page to the BIU (that you can't see on that page of the schematics). Without this line going to BIU there will be no arming flashes. The only purpose of the line from BIU to flasher hazard input is for arming flashes.

 

Off hand I forget if there's a way to do equivalent thing of snipping this line, with only a software parameter change at BUI (either with or without a programming device).

Edited April 22, 2013 by scottmcphee

So now the newest Web Electric relay has stopped signaling L turns. R is fine and hazards are fine. More issues to work through now. Always happens when I don't have time to look at it for 2-3 more days.

 

I'm really hoping just to get it back working on the stock relay again... then on to a TapTurn!

Just an obvious but maybe overlooked thing, are you pushing the plug into the flasher until it clicks solidly into place... So you'd have to press the tab on the side of the plug in order to remove it again? And I'm wondering if with all the swapping some of the pin receptacles in the plug have expanded and are now fitting loosely around the pin?

 

If that's all good I have a feeling this is grounding related and there is a fuzzy ground, maybe in the combination switch. Has your car suffered flood damage?

<bump>

 

bCaff what's the latest, keep us posted

Thanks ^ for the reminder. Sorry for sporadic posts, work has me traveling quite a bit leaving little time to troubleshoot the issues.

 

I am currently running on the stock flasher relay again, however I had to cut the ground wire going to the hazard switch and BIU for arm/disarm response flashes.

 

scottmcphee has mentioned that I may have issues internal to the BIU caused by the original incident. I've measured continuity from a multimeter on that pin to vehicle ground and measure no continuity. I do get continuity on the actual dedicated ground pin (checked as a reference). Also, both of the web electric relays function properly with the hazard circuit, although they do not react to the arming flash input (could be the BIU isn't sending one anymore). Part of me thinks that their relay cannot react fast enough to the BIU arm response.

 

I've also tried to measure the resistance (read continuity) of the hazard switch pin while locking/unlocking the car with the remote and did notice that the resistance dropped and then went back towards infinity (I don't remember any specific values and my multimeter has too slow of a response). This gives me hope that the existing BIU may in fact be OK.

 

My existing theory is that there is some ground current leaking through the BIU, enough to set off the stock relay, but not enough to set off the Web Electric ones. I wonder if adding a resistor in the hazard switch circuit (at the relay) would add enough resistance to reliably band-aid the problem. To do it the right way, I should purchase a BIU and test with it to further narrow down the problem.

 

That being said, anyone have a lead on a used BIU and/or a used stock flasher relay for my car? I'm guessing I'll have to get the BIU programmed by Subaru regardless. I wouldn't mind starting with a different stock relay to see if it has the same problems. In the end more research is required, but for now I have L and R signals even though I don't have hazards.

bCaff, that wire you cut to quash the hazards flashing all the time: "move the cut" down closer to the BIU so just the flasher-BIU connection is severed, leaving flasher-hazard switch intact. Not having hazards when you need them is a hazard!

 

Do the test in post#9 of this thread to SEE for a fact if the BIU is having an issue or not getting confirmation pulse out. Your observation of ohm meter on the hazard pin while locking is a promising sign the BIU is trying to do something (sends confirmation pulse), and yes, maybe you're right the web electric flasher is not fast enough to recognize the pulse (this is very likely).

 

Trying a known good stock flasher in the car should rank higher on the to-do list than BIU search and replace.. at this time. Grab any 8pin Denso flasher from a Toyota in the junk yard.. if that's a faster way of getting one. Tons of them out there, here's a partial list:

 

Subaru BRZ all years

Subaru Impreza 2008 up Outback Sport

Subaru XV Crosstrek 2012 up

Subaru Legacy 2004 up Liberty, Outback

Subaru WRX 2008 up

Subaru STI 2008 up

Subaru Tribeca 2006 up

Toyota Camry 2001 to 2012 XV30, XV40, XV50, Aurion, Daihatsu Altis, Altise

Toyota FJ Cruiser 2007 to 2012

Toyota Prius 2003 to 2012

Toyota Prius C 2012

Toyota Prius V 2012

Toyota Tundra 2000 to 2006

Toyota Sequoia 2001 to 2007

Toyota Avalon 2005 to 2012 XX30, Pronard, Aurion

Toyota 4Runner 2003 to 2009 SW4, Hilux Surf

Toyota Corolla 2002 to 2008 Axio, Altis, Fielder

Toyota Yaris 2000 to 2010 Echo, Vitz, Platz, Belta, XP10

Toyota RAV4 2000 to 2005 XA20

Toyota Matrix 2003 to 2008

Toyota Celica 2000 to 2006

Toyota Sienna 2004 to 2010

Toyota Solara 2004 to 2009

Toyota Tacoma 2005 to 2012

Thanks scottmcphee for your continued help and support. I have moved the cut in the wire closer to the BIU and now have operational hazards and turn signals. The only thing my car is now missing is the alarm response flashes. Much easier to live without that feature than hazards.

 

I have been unable to perform the test fully as specified in post #9. I have confirmed that the BIU will send an output signal that partially overrides the perpetual hazards on the stock relay. I believe this ground signal from the BIU is not fully turning off (at least enough for the stock relay to stop flashing).

 

Next steps are as recommended in post #15 above, I'll be searching for another Denso flasher and will try to complete the test in post #9 fully. Waiting to see what Web Electric says about trying to repair/replace the BIU. So far they've offered a full refund if I send the flashers back to them.

This is pointing to BIU damage on the output stage of the circuit that controls dis/arm flashes on the hazard input to flasher.

 

It's good you're seeing the desired pulse from the BIU toward ground for lock/unlock flash. But like you say, it's not releasing from ground "enough" to let the stock flasher get out of flash mode.

 

I wonder if adding a resistor in the hazard switch circuit (at the relay) would add enough resistance to reliably band-aid the problem.

 

If you wanted to follow up on this wonder, I'd suggest starting with a 2400 ohm (2.4k, or 2k4) 1/4watt common resistor bridging pins 4 and 8 at the flasher. See if this affects your hazard switch operation with stock flasher... hazards should continue to work only when switch is pressed and hazards go off when switch is released with this resistor in place. If this is so, then the big hope is to reconnect that cut line to BIU and see if doing this triggers hazards immediately again. If they stay off, do a lock on the remote and see if you get a flash.

 

If this doesn't work, you might step up to 1200 ohm, making a stronger pull up. If you bought 2 x 2400 resistors, this is just putting both in parallel across pins 4 and 8.

 

If that doesn't "cure" the BIU, I'd suggest stopping there.

 

Do all this with stock flasher. Don't put a web electric product in your car again.

Edited April 22, 2013 by scottmcphee

I've noticed over the years that the car will miss a flash or two while disarming the alarm. Everything is stock. Heck, even the bulbs are original.

Quick update:

 

I have sent the Web Electric products back to them for a full refund. I needed to settle the issue with them so we can all move on. Web Electric never fully understood the problems that resulted from their product and offered no help on fixing the BIU. They offered to take a look at my stock relay but refused to believe that their product could have harmed my BIU.

 

In the end I couldn't stand the thought of letting them keep any of my money and that's why I at least went with the refund. scottmcphee, expect an order for a Tap Turn relay in the near future. I'll gladly purchase your product thanks to your ongoing support with this issue. Sorry that you won't have the opportunity to dissect the Web E product.

 

I haven't tried the resistor repair yet, I need to swing by a radio shack and get the components. Will update once I give it a try. What's the best way to install the resistors across pins 4 and 8? Is there a way to do that in the relay connector? I'm sure I can figure something out, but if there's a better way to do it I'd be glad to know about it

I've seen pictures of web electric module, inside. That's all I needed to see.

 

Moving on....

 

Get ahold of 3 lengths of 20AWG, or so, insulated stranded wire, pretty common automotive stuff.

You'll be bringing these lengths of wire out to where you want to work, not with your head up the dash.

 

Find the BIU side of the cut you made on the BIU-to-flasher line. Strip this end and attach a length of wire to it, twist join and wrap with tape is good enough, and bring that out. Call this line "BIU".

 

Protect the cut ends of every wire from touching anything metal, or each other, accidentally during this experiment.

 

Find the flasher side of the cut you made on the BIU-to-flasher line, strip and attach a length and bring that line out as well. Call this line "CONFIRM".

 

Get +12V right from the battery with a clip.. call this wire "HOT" bring it to the cabin where you are working.

 

Do the following with your stock flasher plugged in, hazards switch OFF.

 

Meter the voltage on HOT wire and see that it is +12 or so. Use a chassis ground for the negative test lead. You'll blow a fuse or melt a wire if you touch this lead to ground, so don't.

 

Meter the voltage on BIU line. (Meter's negative lead on the same chassis ground as test above.) This could be "any value" because we don't know the state of your BIU. Record the reading, is it positive? Is there a different reading with the car running, or off? Report findings.

 

Now make a connection. Twist BIU to CONFIRM to rejoin that factory desired connection. You said your flashers come on at this point. Do they still? Meter this connection point for a voltage reading as your flashers are blinking. Record, report.

 

I'll assume your hazards are blinking at this point because of the connection just made (wishing they wouldn't..) Now press the hazard swtich. Re-check the meter reading on the BIU/CONFIRM junction. Did it change (drop further to zero)? It should be zero with button pressed.

 

Release the hazard switch so it is not closed.

 

Now, the experiment. Twist one end of resistor to HOT. Tape that whole side of the resistor so you just have the other resistor lead emerging from a protective enclosure. Meter the exposed end of the resistor, it should be +12 or so. Momentarily touch the exposed end to chassis ground, nothing should spark, heat up, or melt. You should be able to grasp the resistor while doing this. Alternatively, test the DC current using your meter that is flowing through the resistor to ground. Ensure it is only a few mA.

 

Now hold the exposed end of the resistor to the BIU/CONFIRM junction. You are "pulling up" that line.

 

With any luck the hazard flashing should stop when you do this.

 

If it doesn't stop flashing, get out your second resistor and wire it up in parallel with the first (so as to drop the resistance in half, or double your current)... do all the same safety checks on that resistor pair as above.. Then hold the exposed twisted end of the resistor twin pack to the BIU/CONFIRM junction. You are "pulling up stronger" at this point.

 

With luck the hazards should stop.

 

If they do... press the hazard switch ON now, the hazards should come on when you do.

Then turn hazards OFF again. Hazards stop.

 

Now, the big test, lock the car remotely. And see if you get a confirmation flash.

 

If you do, make this temporary rig more permanent using your own thoughts, but certainly leaving loosely wrapped wires and things poked into socket holes isn't going to carry you far.

 

Make sense?

Edited May 1, 2013 by scottmcphee

Thanks for the detailed writeup. I've been swamped with travel for work the past three weeks and probably won't get a chance to try this for a while.

 

Thanks again for your help and patience. I'll post a reply when I can get to it.

I can't offer any advice, but hope the images help.

 

Correction. I used a CD4001 CMOS 2 input NOR gate chip on the prototype, not a 74HCTxx 2 input NOR gate chip.

 

We have one Legacy and one Forester both are 2015s.

I have researched this problem a lot and designed a breadboard solution that works sand a mechanical only fix.

 

I will post the shorter relocation of the relay post that should be of interest to some.

 

Keywords, phrases, threads:

 

Forester "Wife has trouble hearing the turn signal flasher"

 

Forester "Turn Signal Low Volume" and "flasher turn signal problem"

 

"Turn signal flasher relay issues"

https://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/turn-signal-flasher-relay-issuses-204243.html

 

Start my post:

 

I have done some further research on the Forester part number 86111AJ001 Denso Flasher. I found three schematic/block diagrams of sorts on the net.

 

1. Subaruforester.org/attachments/wiring-diagram-1-PDF.1745/ is not that helpful in deciphering what is going on. Relay base or socket is not an 8 pin B32 configuration, like the models below.

 

This STI and WRX PDF is better on page WI-80.

2. http://www.voisin.ch/subaru/docs_techniques/2008_impreza_wrx_&_sti_manuel_atelier/sti/sti_wiring_sys.pdf

Corrected link, April 26,2021, PDF, section 23, page WI-80.

 

3. https://www.subaruoutback.org/threads/flasher-turn-signal-problem.134665/ See comment post #9, by "plain OM", dated March 22, 2014. There is a good diagram on page WI-151. Print it out. It also has letter color codes on page WI-6.

 

4. More on the pinouts and functions are described later on, are below.

 

 

New fix and relocation procedure I found out by accident and now use.

 

I discovered that you can detach the mounting pin/clip/grommet/push-pin mounting for this "relay plus a PCB inside" from the bottom of my dash board instrument deck. You just have to pry it out sideways or whatever works. It will not be reused.

 

The relay and wiring will hang down about six inches.

Remove the left part of the D-panel as described before by me including releasing the one side latch, the one Philips screw, and the side "boomerang" shaped black panel by the door.

Rotate the panel down and let it hang. It will.

 

Underneath the steering column and to the left a few inches is a sort of shelf with a black felt piece attached to this horizontal part of the remaining other D-panel mounting structure. Pull the felt towards the driver's seat and hold it there.

Wipe that now exposed black plastic surface and all the sides of the relay assembly with rubbing alcohol.

Cut a piece of 3M automotive molding mounting tape about one inch long and 1/8" wide to minimize sound deadening of the relay when mounted. Place it near the back edge of the flat black plastic self. Remove the red tape.

Press mount the relay so that the semi-clear whitish grommet is towards on the left side on the relay. Push the relay down until flat and the Denso " writing is towards the driver's seat. You only need to have the relay attached at the back of this black plastic shelf piece.

 

Heat a Tic Tac candy box label with a mini-torch flame to slightly wrinkle the label foil with that heat. Peel the label off slowly. Clean up any remaining adhesive with rubbing alcohol.

Then, place three strips of 3M double backed tape sold in a Yellow Plaid Roll running from the bottom to the top of the box. Do not touch the tape adhesive or overlap the strips at all. They will hold just fine. Center the clear box side to side and top to bottom on the relay and press down slightly. Put a pencil or two inside the box and press the box down stoutly to mount it to the relay assemble.

The box will stick out from under the steering column space below the column slightly to the left and into the cabin.

 

This Tic Tac box is a known megaphone fix elsewhere and it does work. It is not a powered amplifier.

 

I cut half a McDonald's quarter pounder box in half and cut a slot in it on the right inside edge to hang around the wiring harness, behind the relay, and to reflect sound towards the cabin.

 

This is the loudest sound I could get the flasher to make and without horrible electronics circuitry and surgery inside the relay assembly itself.

I breadboarded a prototype interface using two NOR gates (CMOS "CD4001") with one +15 Volt supply for all of these items), a 4N33 opto-isolator, and a piezo electric "speaker". That's a different posting to come.

 

<snip> Skipped the schematic until I get it drawn up. Ditto the "how the circuit works.

 

 

4. Relay base plate pinout numbers and short functions:

 

This reference link is: https://www.subaruoutback.org/threads/flasher-turn-signal-problem.134665/page-2

 

These pinout wire colors vary widely by models and years for the same 86111AJ001 part number relay assembly with its own PCB inside. (Lexus and Scion use this part too.)

 

 

My 2015 Forester: some stripes I was not able to see if it existed or what the color of the wire "tracer" stripe was. So, I marked the stripe as /?

 

Some of the wire colors might have a stripe but I didn't see one on some wires with my inspection mirror. Colors on your unit might vary.

 

2015 Forester

Pin nos. wire color/stripe color function of pin (Function is the same for all cars below.)

---------- ------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

1 White Fuse block #11, Ign. switched

2 Red/? Right Turn signal bulbs.

3 Pink Left Turn signal bulbs.

4 Wht/Black Main fuse # 14, Ign. switched.

5 Lite Blue/Black? Left turn signal ground for dash signal Light.

6 Green/Black Right turn signal ground for dash signal Light.

7 Solid Black Earth or Car Ground.

8 White/Green Hazard always on. Grd it to turn on Hazard Lights.

 

 

20?? Outback Unknown year.

Pin nos. wire color/stripe color function like above.

---------- ------------------------------- --------------------------

1 Green/ Black

2 Red/Yellow

3 Lite Blue/Yellow

4 White/Black

5 Blue/Black

6 Red/Black

7 Black

8 Violet/Black

 

2008 STI and WRX

Pin nos. wire color/stripe color function like above.

---------- ----------------------- --------------------

1 Green/Black

2 Gray

3 White/Red

4 White/Black

5 Blue/Black

6 Red/Black

7 Black

8 Green

 

Pin out rows and numbers arrangement. Finding the lone pin 3 determines the orientation of your plug or socket.

Pin layouts:

---------------

1, 2, -, -, 3

4, 5, 6, 7, 8

---------------

 

-, - is the connector key way notch location.

 

 

More Denso 'relay assembly' images.

https://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/tap-turn-signals-31995.html

 

Images of a circuit like Tap-Turn and shows some relay holes exist in some Denso's.

https://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/tap-turn-signals-31995p2.html

 

Page numbers might change over time. Poster is "scottmcphee", 04-18-2008 9:24 AM. Thanks for that posting. It helped me understand the circuit operation.

 

HTH for right now,

 

Stefen

Edited April 26, 2021 by StefanSlaw