Jump to content
LegacyGT.com

Timing adjustment how hard special tools???


Recommended Posts

The saga of the poor running 2.5 continues but has gotten a bit worse.

 

Over the past several days at times the car didn't have enough power to get out of its own way and then it would catch and go. No codes to be seen when it did it and it idled fine.

 

The list has been after me forever to check the timing. Yesterday morning I decided to check the timing, matching up the sprocket marks, etc.

 

To remove the right hand belt cover I had to remove the fan, which I did. I got lazy and didn't remove the left hand fan, I didn't need to because I could remove the left side belt covering without removing.

 

Not removing the fan meant that the 22mm socket I had, long one, wouldn't fit past the fan. In my infinite wisdom I just used the bolt head on the right hand intake sprocket to turn the belt. The marks on the sprocket on the right side looked off a tooth or two. Hm? But I wasn't throwing codes on that bank.

 

Standing there talking with the guy whose eyes I used to double check my results, I decided the next step is to install another engine. He said I can use his place, it is level and he has a better air compressor to run any impact wrenches.

 

The guy leaves and I decide to juggle some cars around. Move the outback to the top of the driveway. With 6 cars it is important that the ones used most often are not at the top of the heap. The outback started with ease but had very little power to move the car. It was doing exactly what it had been doing for a few days but I got it to move to its resting place.

 

Later i the day I decided to start the outback but it wouldn't start. Crank, crank, crank and it didn't even try to start. What the heck?

 

I'm now getting a PO 0341 - cam sensor.

 

I am thinking this -

 

 

  1. For several days the belt had been slipping
  2. Making the belt move without using the crank allowed the belt to slip on the crank splines --- now off time
  3. The cam position sensor is truly bad

I need to research how to test the cam position sensor. I imagine that there is a resistance or ohms test.

 

Does the pulley always need a puller? On my Jag when I changed the harmonic balancer, it was on with a key way and was rather easy to pull off.

 

I used the breaker bar method where you use the breaker bar and blip the engine, off comes the nut. That is a blip not a running engine. It allowed me to not remove the radiator to get the impact wrench on the nut.

 

Now to the nitty gritty. I've never worked on this DOHC belt set-up and I am wondering how hard it can be?

 

I'm also wondering if trying to crank over an engine that has slipped at the crank, have I damaged some valves?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There's a lot going on in your post. So you replaced the engine and it's still running the same? If the belt were to jump a tooth it would run like shit, misfiring crazy. If you think that's what happen I wouldn't run the engine anymore because you can bend the valves. Your asking how hard the 2.5 is to work on? They're pretty easy but what exactly are you fixing?
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Although this engine is not the original, it is a replacement done in March 2013 and has never run well. Constant 304 code and at times 304/302/301 all at once. The multiple codes were rare but the 304 was not.

 

I want to replace the current engine but I need to start it to move it to where I can work on it (neighbors house).

 

While pulling on cam sprocket bolt it probably pulled the belt off crank splines (just a guess) but now it won't start.

 

So I want to go in and check the crank alignment mark and match up the cam marks. Heck maybe they are all in alignment and the engine has died.

 

So I need to know about the ease of removing the pulley and if the marks are off, I need some assistance with belt adjustment. The fsm references special tools. Are special tools needed or is there a work around?

 

There's a lot going on in your post. So you replaced the engine and it's still running the same? If the belt were to jump a tooth it would run like shit, misfiring crazy. If you think that's what happen I wouldn't run the engine anymore because you can bend the valves. Your asking how hard the 2.5 is to work on? They're pretty easy but what exactly are you fixing?
Link to comment
Share on other sites

From my experiences, for a belt to jump teeth from cranking on it, it would of have to have been garbage to begin with. With all honesty, the timing belt and related components should of been changed when you put it in. I wouldn't be so quick to pull the motor just yet. Pull the radiator and fans so you have plenty of room to work and get the timing covers off to see what's really going on. As for special tool, they make life much easier but you can get by without them, if your crafty enough. I've used a scrap timing belt and vice grips to hold a cam gear. I've seen pictures of sprocket tools made out of wood. Just use what you have available to you but just take extreme care with the cam gears themselves.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Engine was installed by previous owner before selling it to me.

 

Theory on belt movement isn't from cranking the engine, it is from turning the cam sprockets to move check alignment marks. Should have been using the crank to turn the belt.

 

The belt looks in good shape but perhaps the person that installed the belt (whenever it was installed) went cheap and didn't replace tensioners, cranking at the sprockets could have pulled it over the crank spline. Looking at the engineering of the belt assembly, the torque is coming from the crank....not the sprockets. Sprockets are the ones receiving the torque not developing torque.

 

When I install the engine I will replace all the stuff that is hard to get at with the engine installed such as valve cover gaskets, timing belt, some of the sensors on the engine, new vac lines, etc. It is my protocol for engine

replacements.

 

Recently helped a guy with his Ford Explorer (head replacement) and used an arrangement of electrical ties to keep the cams from moving.

 

From my experiences, for a belt to jump teeth from cranking on it, it would of have to have been garbage to begin with. With all honesty, the timing belt and related components should of been changed when you put it in. I wouldn't be so quick to pull the motor just yet. Pull the radiator and fans so you have plenty of room to work and get the timing covers off to see what's really going on. As for special tool, they make life much easier but you can get by without them, if your crafty enough. I've used a scrap timing belt and vice grips to hold a cam gear. I've seen pictures of sprocket tools made out of wood. Just use what you have available to you but just take extreme care with the cam gears themselves.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

To rest the timing you'll have to use the same procedure as doing a t belt. Once you get the crank pulley and covers off, mark the belt with white out or nail polish at the correct timing spots. Then remove the belt. Align marks and reinstall belt. Pull pin on tensioner which you compressed while doing other stuff. Install pulley but don't tighten much. Then start car. If it was only timing, it should start and run properly. If not then there are other issues.

If you are going to go further with this engine, advise.

 

O.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Like the others are saying, definitely pull everything out and get that timing belt on properly. After that, see if the car runs. If it doesn't or runs worse than it did before, you've probably bent some valves. If it does run, but you're still having the same issue you can always swap the CRANK position sensor for the CAM position sensor. If the car doesn't run, or even start, or even run for long, but your timing/CEL issues go away then the cam sensor was bad.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok things don't look good at all.

 

With the crank mark at the top (mine was painted red) none of the cam marks are where they should be. I took white chaulk and marked the double lines.

 

Looking at the picture on the service procedure page 2-3b the makrs should be:

 

Crank at top dead center

Double lines of intake cams should be dead center bottom

Double lines of exhaust cams should be top dead center

 

Plus I can almost pull the belt off the bottom belt idler with my fingers

 

I don't know how to release the tension on the tensioner to adjust things so that I can see if this car will start. It hasn't started with this mess but I did crank it trying to start it.

 

Even if the valves are bent I would like to adjust the belt so that I learn how to do it.

 

Pictures included

 

 

To rest the timing you'll have to use the same procedure as doing a t belt. Once you get the crank pulley and covers off, mark the belt with white out or nail polish at the correct timing spots. Then remove the belt. Align marks and reinstall belt. Pull pin on tensioner which you compressed while doing other stuff. Install pulley but don't tighten much. Then start car. If it was only timing, it should start and run properly. If not then there are other issues.

If you are going to go further with this engine, advise.

 

O.

P4230050.JPG.7d4c8c1b2c2b2ec8f75d801cf29cb693.JPG

P4230053.JPG.f1ba4f9b116ef4f2b8520e4076ce3b70.JPG

P4230054.JPG.daefe44c3a4a8f0b8b17add0f4f0dbd7.JPG

P4230055.JPG.2633b10ecb679f09e25e2e1deb72f772.JPG

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well I did the job and to be honest it wasn't very bad. I could have used a helper to keep the cams from moving and because of it, the timing isn't perfect. Tomorrow I'll mess with it again to try for perfection.

 

 

The car started but I haven't taken it for a run. Tomorrow I need to fabricate a tool to hold the crank pulley while I tighten down on the bolt. I knew an old mechanic that once said because of the direction the motor spins, the bolt wouldn't back out very easily.

 

One thing is for certain it is aligned much, much better than it was after the slippage.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd191/boostedbug/Subaru%20conversion/valance019.jpg

 

Credit for pic to JohnCEgg.

Use the passenger side. Thin screwdriver through the flexplate as shown will prevent turning. Also good for removing cam pulley bolts while belt is attached.

Don't forget to remove. Torque to at least 130 ft lbs.

 

O.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Super easy to make the belt slip if you try to turn the engine with the cam gear, especially with the spark plugs in place. It really sounds like your tensioner is shot, that will cause alllll sorts of nastiness. Like the water pump not turning as well when the car gets up to normal op temp...

 

For the crank bolt, if it's an auto, lock the flex plate like Osei shows, or from the service port plate at the top of the trans. If it's a manual you could just put it in gear and have someone hold the brakes, assuming your clutch is decent...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was wondering of there was such a place to hold the flex plate. I've seen access on other cars on the bottom. This will come in very handy when trying to torque the pulley bolt. So the torque number is 130 pounds?

 

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd191/boostedbug/Subaru%20conversion/valance019.jpg

 

Credit for pic to JohnCEgg.

Use the passenger side. Thin screwdriver through the flexplate as shown will prevent turning. Also good for removing cam pulley bolts while belt is attached.

Don't forget to remove. Torque to at least 130 ft lbs.

 

O.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I also think the tensioner is shot but it is working --- just not sure how much it is working. I used an Allen wrench to insert into the hole to hold the tensioner. When I went to pull the Allen wrench out it definitely had pressure applied to it.

 

One thing the car doesn't do is overheat.

 

The right side cam marks lined up perfectly, it was the side I put the belt on first. Geometry remark next, 360 degrees in a circle. Assume 0 degrees is the top of the circle, the left side intake marks are at 178 or 179 degrees. The bottom mark is at 0 degree (straight up). It is what I meant by not being perfect because the intake is off a tooth or two.

 

Super easy to make the belt slip if you try to turn the engine with the cam gear, especially with the spark plugs in place. It really sounds like your tensioner is shot, that will cause alllll sorts of nastiness. Like the water pump not turning as well when the car gets up to normal op temp...

 

For the crank bolt, if it's an auto, lock the flex plate like Osei shows, or from the service port plate at the top of the trans. If it's a manual you could just put it in gear and have someone hold the brakes, assuming your clutch is decent...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you mean the driver's side when you say left, then yes it may be off a tooth, since the count is on the 1/2 mark and the belt may not slip into the notch.

The trick is to move the cam a little off, so as the tension is applied it moves the cam back into alignment. More than one tooth off tho will cause bad idle.

Yes. 130 FT lbs

 

O.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I watched this video that was mentioned on this form --- someplace.

 

So at this moment all marks are lined up, idler is installed and I'm waiting to pull the pin on the tensioner. I was here last night and if I remember when I pulled the pin, when tension was applied to the belt the marks were not perfectly lined up. Is there some guessing game to getting them to line up after the pin is pulled? The guy in the video just lines up the marks before tension is applied.

 

Before I pull the pin I'd like to know so I don't need to remove the tensioner to reset the pin.

 

 

 

If you mean the driver's side when you say left, then yes it may be off a tooth, since the count is on the 1/2 mark and the belt may not slip into the notch.

The trick is to move the cam a little off, so as the tension is applied it moves the cam back into alignment. More than one tooth off tho will cause bad idle.

Yes. 130 FT lbs

 

O.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Pulled the pin and everything stayed lined up.

 

Alas :spin: It is still lumpy and after all, I might just try the injector.

 

I'm just trying to get the I/M stuff ready for inspection. I can have two that are not ready.

 

Took the thing on the highway, doing 55>60 no spark DTC's were happening, came back the same way, same thing no spark DTC stuff. Turned into a mall and bam.......code 304.

 

When I started the car the one time (before road test) I threw a 141. WTH?!?!! I had been messing around under the hood, trying to find the hole to insert the screwdrivers into the flexplate.

 

So after the code I went and pulled on the connector for the one O2 sensor, used the scan tool to clear the code and it never came back. The connector did not at all feel loose. So I don't know if it was the connector or just clearing the code with the scan reader.

 

I believe I could let the car sit idling and go from cold to warm, sit there for half an hour and it would never throw a 304.

 

Weird car!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

 

 

Just put a little pressure on the belt with your finger as you pull the pin.

 

O.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.



×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Terms of Use