Engine Rebuild (Gulp)

So, I posted a thread a couple weeks ago about the demise of my Legacy. You can check it out here: http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2243137#post2243137

 

 

I originally thought about getting a new car. I was not about to have the dealership take apart the engine just to look at what the problem is for a few thousand dollars. Totally not worth it. Well now, I have luckily run into another option. Fortunately for me, I have a friend who's dad rebuilds motors all the time, with a 12 car garage, a car lift and a motor stand and all the tools. So, he is currently looking at my car and he is about to take the engine out and pull it apart. I expect to be replacing the rod bearings and possibly the rods themselves.

But I was thinking, what else could I do while I have the engine apart? How beneficial would some new pistons be? Anyone seen these before or have them installed? http://www.techworkseng.com/Products/Subaru_Forged_Pistons.htm

 

On top of that, would new valves or grinding the cam give me more benfits? I'm a newbie when it comes to rebuilding engines so any help would be appreciated. I have not seen an threads on a EJ253 rebuild.

is this a 2.5i? If it is then you should drop in a 2.5T or 3.6 from the Tribeca (custom)

yeah well you dont have to worry about the warranty anymore so yeah you could got the route ( engine swap ) or just rebuild it to good old OEM spec and maybe slap a header on and while youre at it think about TGV deletes they are the valve assembly on each side of the engine above the intake valves removing them woudl require a tune which may be out of your range anyway I would say keep it OEm b/c what good is it to put in high end internals w/o force induction? So a header exhaust would be a great way to vamp it up h3ll it'll come off the light sounding like a LGT

Get a new stock short block and replace it.

Get a new stock short block and replace it.

 

I would, but I've been quoted at a couple different subaru dealerships. A new shortblock would be $4,100. A used longblock is $4,500. It just makes more sense to fix the existing one up since I have a few things available to me.

 

The reasoning behind putting better internals in the engine would be to increase compression. If I was looking to turbo the engine, I would go with a lower compression setup. Running a higher compression on an N/A might add some power to it.

If you are going to go with a turbo, then swap in a turbo engine

 

$4500 is nuts. A quick search found a short block for $1,900.

 

Another alternative is a used short block, they go for a lot less.

If you are going to go with a turbo, then swap in a turbo engine

 

$4500 is nuts. A quick search found a short block for $1,900.

 

Another alternative is a used short block, they go for a lot less.

WTF $4900 hahaha that better be a race engine roa is right i found the same short block he did for the cheap you might even be able to find a trashed STI or LGT and get the eninge out of that but i like the idea of higcompression N/a internal but high compression mean somewhat more wear on the rebuild which makes the OEM rebuild sound better along with a header

I would, but I've been quoted at a couple different subaru dealerships. A new shortblock would be $4,100. A used longblock is $4,500. It just makes more sense to fix the existing one up since I have a few things available to me.

 

The reasoning behind putting better internals in the engine would be to increase compression. If I was looking to turbo the engine, I would go with a lower compression setup. Running a higher compression on an N/A might add some power to it.

 

I've been told $1,800 for a new short block from the local dealerships. Its just the labor that totals it up to 4-5k. Perry quoted me for $4,200 for the block and install. Thats probably the route I'll go sometime this summer.

 

You are right though, tearing the engine apart just to find out what the problem is...that is pointless to me, whether the car is under warranty or not. I'm definitely not paying 2k to get the block out, then find out that Subaru won't cover it under warranty. I'd rather get a brand new OEM shortblock and avoid all the stress.

So, I posted a thread a couple weeks ago about the demise of my Legacy. You can check it out here: http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2243137#post2243137

 

 

I originally thought about getting a new car. I was not about to have the dealership take apart the engine just to look at what the problem is for a few thousand dollars. Totally not worth it. Well now, I have luckily run into another option. Fortunately for me, I have a friend who's dad rebuilds motors all the time, with a 12 car garage, a car lift and a motor stand and all the tools. So, he is currently looking at my car and he is about to take the engine out and pull it apart. I expect to be replacing the rod bearings and possibly the rods themselves.

But I was thinking, what else could I do while I have the engine apart? How beneficial would some new pistons be? Anyone seen these before or have them installed? http://www.techworkseng.com/Products/Subaru_Forged_Pistons.htm

 

On top of that, would new valves or grinding the cam give me more benfits? I'm a newbie when it comes to rebuilding engines so any help would be appreciated. I have not seen an threads on a EJ253 rebuild.

 

I hope for your sake that he has been inside plenty of boxer motors and knows what he is doing extremelt well. All too often people claim they can rebuild these, yet screw them up worse. I would not advise for new bearings/rods, but a shortblock.

The reason is to do all that work you have to split the case and that dramatically increases the chance of ruining the motor and significantly increases the labor. We do shortblocks all the time, and my 3 seasons techs refuse to split a case to replace bearings. Too much to go wrong.

 

Get a new stock short block and replace it.

 

+1

 

I would, but I've been quoted at a couple different subaru dealerships. A new shortblock would be $4,100. A used longblock is $4,500. It just makes more sense to fix the existing one up since I have a few things available to me.

 

The reasoning behind putting better internals in the engine would be to increase compression. If I was looking to turbo the engine, I would go with a lower compression setup. Running a higher compression on an N/A might add some power to it.

 

Yes, but you are significantly increasing the labor as it requires a lot more work. Plus you have to find a competant shop to do this. Most dealerships won't do this. They will go the shortblock route because of the extra time, labor involved.

 

I've been told $1,800 for a new short block from the local dealerships. Its just the labor that totals it up to 4-5k. Perry quoted me for $4,200 for the block and install. Thats probably the route I'll go sometime this summer.

 

You are right though, tearing the engine apart just to find out what the problem is...that is pointless to me, whether the car is under warranty or not. I'm definitely not paying 2k to get the block out, then find out that Subaru won't cover it under warranty. I'd rather get a brand new OEM shortblock and avoid all the stress.

 

That is correct. I can also tell you that if you were to just replace the crank, bearings, rods and pistons you can easily look at 7K or more. There is machine work that may be involved. Comparing the labor and time it takes, lets look at this.

To replace a shortblock, you tear the motor down to the shortblock so you can replace it. Now, you are halfway done the motor altogether. Just have to put it back together with the new shortblock.

Now, if you were replacing bearings and internals, you still are not halfway there. Once you are at the shortblock, you still have to remove the oil pan assy, remove the piston pins plugs, disassemble the pistons, remove them, split open the engine casing, remove the crank and rods/bearings.

 

Definitely much more work involved. If a shop has little to no experience in rebuilding boxer motors especially shortblocks, It is strongly advised they should never try and replace internals.

I hope for your sake that he has been inside plenty of boxer motors and knows what he is doing extremelt well. All too often people claim they can rebuild these, yet screw them up worse. I would not advise for new bearings/rods, but a shortblock.

The reason is to do all that work you have to split the case and that dramatically increases the chance of ruining the motor and significantly increases the labor. We do shortblocks all the time, and my 3 seasons techs refuse to split a case to replace bearings. Too much to go wrong.

 

 

 

+1

 

 

 

Yes, but you are significantly increasing the labor as it requires a lot more work. Plus you have to find a competant shop to do this. Most dealerships won't do this. They will go the shortblock route because of the extra time, labor involved.

 

 

 

That is correct. I can also tell you that if you were to just replace the crank, bearings, rods and pistons you can easily look at 7K or more. There is machine work that may be involved. Comparing the labor and time it takes, lets look at this.

To replace a shortblock, you tear the motor down to the shortblock so you can replace it. Now, you are halfway done the motor altogether. Just have to put it back together with the new shortblock.

Now, if you were replacing bearings and internals, you still are not halfway there. Once you are at the shortblock, you still have to remove the oil pan assy, remove the piston pins plugs, disassemble the pistons, remove them, split open the engine casing, remove the crank and rods/bearings.

 

Definitely much more work involved. If a shop has little to no experience in rebuilding boxer motors especially shortblocks, It is strongly advised they should never try and replace internals.

 

Once again, very helpful info. Thanks.

Once again, very helpful info. Thanks.

 

Sure thing man. I do what I can. If you need any info or help, you got my AIM handle.

If you are going to go with a turbo, then swap in a turbo engine

 

$4500 is nuts. A quick search found a short block for $1,900.

 

Another alternative is a used short block, they go for a lot less.

 

Haha. I wish I could just put a turbo engine in there, trust me. But I don't have much of a choice on this. My parents are helping me with this, and I don't think they want to help me with that.

 

*This is an update on the rebuild*

 

After tearing the engine apart, we found that just replacing the short block like the dealership wanted to do wouldnt have done much for me anyways. There were multiple other things that needed to be adressed that would not have been taken care of replacing the short block alone, and eventually it would have ended up the same way it is now at a $4,100 price tag.

 

The guy fixing my engine has 30 years experience with this kind of stuff. He said if they went ahead and replaced the short block, they probably wouldnt have inspected much else. Like taking apart the heads to get any bearing material out and ceaning them out good. Also, all these things:

 

The oil pump has a lot of wear, the water pump should be replaced, new head gasket set is needed, vavle gaskets, up and lower radiator hoses were going bad, a rod needed to be machined, and crankshaft needed to be polished and of course, bearings needed to be replaced for rods/main.

 

So basically, the 4,100$ quote from subaru would bascially all be for the bearings themselves inside the engine. While these were the first things that failed and the reason to why its taken apart right now, none of the other things would have been adressed the way they are now. The pistons and valves are in good shape the way they are now. And eventually metal caught up in the heads would have screwed my engine all over again had they not been cleaned out properly (which I doubt a dealership wouldve spent the extra time to do).

 

Rebuilding it the way its being now is definitely the best and most economical way to go. Plus, I ordered a LWFW and Exedy Stage 1 cluch to put in when this gets put back together! Something I wouldnt have done at the same time as an engine replacement. So, altogether the cost of all these repairs and parts (including clutch/flywheel) will be about $1,300. Luckily for labor, I am trading my own work with him to pay for that. I will be detailing a few of his trucks. But for all the work hes done for me already, I have noooo complaints about that

Haha. I wish I could just put a turbo engine in there, trust me. But I don't have much of a choice on this. My parents are helping me with this, and I don't think they want to help me with that.

 

*This is an update on the rebuild*

 

After tearing the engine apart, we found that just replacing the short block like the dealership wanted to do wouldnt have done much for me anyways. There were multiple other things that needed to be adressed that would not have been taken care of replacing the short block alone, and eventually it would have ended up the same way it is now at a $4,100 price tag.

 

The guy fixing my engine has 30 years experience with this kind of stuff. He said if they went ahead and replaced the short block, they probably wouldnt have inspected much else. Like taking apart the heads to get any bearing material out and ceaning them out good. Also, all these things:

 

The oil pump has a lot of wear, the water pump should be replaced, new head gasket set is needed, vavle gaskets, up and lower radiator hoses were going bad, a rod needed to be machined, and crankshaft needed to be polished and of course, bearings needed to be replaced for rods/main.

 

So basically, the 4,100$ quote from subaru would bascially all be for the bearings themselves inside the engine. While these were the first things that failed and the reason to why its taken apart right now, none of the other things would have been adressed the way they are now. The pistons and valves are in good shape the way they are now. And eventually metal caught up in the heads would have screwed my engine all over again had they not been cleaned out properly (which I doubt a dealership wouldve spent the extra time to do).

 

Rebuilding it the way its being now is definitely the best and most economical way to go. Plus, I ordered a LWFW and Exedy Stage 1 cluch to put in when this gets put back together! Something I wouldnt have done at the same time as an engine replacement. So, altogether the cost of all these repairs and parts (including clutch/flywheel) will be about $1,300. Luckily for labor, I am trading my own work with him to pay for that. I will be detailing a few of his trucks. But for all the work hes done for me already, I have noooo complaints about that

 

 

Man, a lot of assumptions in that post. You better pray that guy knows what he is doing inside of that block, and has all necessary tools to do it correctly. Also how does he know what a dealer does or doesn't do when it comes to rebuilds. So far he is dead wrong when it comes to our dealer.

 

If he does it correctly, you got a deal, if not, I tried to help. Good Luck with it.

Just get a new one... http://www.vividracing.com/catalog/engine-motors-c-4206_4250.html

 

Some Pics I took a week ago before taking the engine apart. Look at that film of residue on the pistons! Uggh.

Just get a new one... http://www.vividracing.com/catalog/engine-motors-c-4206_4250.html

 

Yall are some haters. Why would I want a new one when my engine looks like this now? (Took these pics today).

 

He took it back to his shop and cleaned everything up real good, as you can see. Hes going to be powder coating the whole engine too in silver. No more worries about corrosion.

 

Also, I painted my intake manifold while hes doing all this. I felt the STI red iwould look good.

Shiiiny. It looks good.

I wish my engine was shiny.

 

Man, a lot of assumptions in that post. You better pray that guy knows what he is doing inside of that block, and has all necessary tools to do it correctly. Also how does he know what a dealer does or doesn't do when it comes to rebuilds. So far he is dead wrong when it comes to our dealer.

 

If he does it correctly, you got a deal, if not, I tried to help. Good Luck with it.

 

Maybe your dealership, but you know very well not all dealerships are created equal, and if you dont have a bond with the guy doing most of the work for you, hes definitely more apt to cut corners on a huge project like this.

 

The guy doing all this for me is a class act, been rebuilding engines for the federal government for 20 years, and has a 12 car garage with a lift, motor stand, and every tool you could possibly think of. And if he doesnt have the tool at home, he can take the parts to his job and work on it there. He's rebuilt Subarus before, just not one that has an overhead cam.

 

When the bearings come in, he is going to reassemble the block, use a tool to test the oil clearance from the bearings to the crank, disassemble and reassemble again. Yeah its a lot of work, but he doesnt mind having lots of work to do. This is what he lives for.

 

I just really lucked out that my best friends dad was willing to do all this for me, basically free of charge. And do it the RIGHT way. What better piece of mind could I have? Not the same if I had taken it to Casey or Perry or RK.

BTW, I am not hating. It is your car and your problem, not mine. Mine runs fine. Just offering some info on how easy this repair can be messed up.

 

 

Maybe your dealership, but you know very well not all dealerships are created equal, and if you dont have a bond with the guy doing most of the work for you, hes definitely more apt to cut corners on a huge project like this.

Yes, but you don;t know what your dealership was going to do either. You went off an assumption of what someone else told you that is

Not the service advisor or the technician there. So you really don't know what was going to be done.

 

With any engine work, I wouldn't want corners cut especially when they are doing internal work and splitting engines open.

 

The guy doing all this for me is a class act, been rebuilding engines for the federal government for 20 years, and has a 12 car garage with a lift, motor stand, and every tool you could possibly think of. And if he doesnt have the tool at home, he can take the parts to his job and work on it there. He's rebuilt Subarus before, just not one that has an overhead cam.

Yes, I have heard story's like that before. It is usually right when they drop their car off for an engine problem and their mechanic has done the work. Just about every Subaru is an overhead cam since the mid 90's. I am not saying your mechanic can/can't do it. I am saying I hope it works out because what he is doing is very easy to screw up.

 

When the bearings come in, he is going to reassemble the block, use a tool to test the oil clearance from the bearings to the crank, disassemble and reassemble again. Yeah its a lot of work, but he doesnt mind having lots of work to do. This is what he lives for.

 

I just really lucked out that my best friends dad was willing to do all this for me, basically free of charge. And do it the RIGHT way. What better piece of mind could I have? Not the same if I had taken it to Casey or Perry or RK.

Tough to say, what kind of warranty is he giving you once the work is done? I bet it is not 3/36k like Subaru. What kind of warranty is he giving you if he messes it up?

 

Good luck with the work though.

BTW, I am not hating. It is your car and your problem, not mine. Mine runs fine. Just offering some info on how easy this repair can be messed up.

 

 

 

Yes, but you don;t know what your dealership was going to do either. You went off an assumption of what someone else told you that is

Not the service advisor or the technician there. So you really don't know what was going to be done.

 

With any engine work, I wouldn't want corners cut especially when they are doing internal work and splitting engines open.

 

Yes, I have heard story's like that before. It is usually right when they drop their car off for an engine problem and their mechanic has done the work. Just about every Subaru is an overhead cam since the mid 90's. I am not saying your mechanic can/can't do it. I am saying I hope it works out because what he is doing is very easy to screw up.

 

Tough to say, what kind of warranty is he giving you once the work is done? I bet it is not 3/36k like Subaru. What kind of warranty is he giving you if he messes it up?

 

Good luck with the work though.

 

Well call me crazy but i would think the piece of mind frostbite was referring to is warranty enough. As in if somethings goes wrong he knows he can take it back to the guy that did the work originally and he will do his best to correct it with minimal cost. Also the guy is a Veteran mechanic and he has rebuilt boxers before according to Frostbite so I think if he trust this guy enough to tear down his engine and such he must be a good mechanic.

 

Hey are you going with different internals?

While you are at it you might as well delete the TGV's

Well call me crazy but i would think the piece of mind frostbite was referring to is warranty enough. As in if somethings goes wrong he knows he can take it back to the guy that did the work originally and he will do his best to correct it with minimal cost. Also the guy is a Veteran mechanic and he has rebuilt boxers before according to Frostbite so I think if he trust this guy enough to tear down his engine and such he must be a good mechanic.

I am giving my views on this being I see this often and have seen people have mechanics they told me they trusted, mess up their cars and also offer nothing to help them. Just putting out my 02 from my experiences being we are here for, to learn something.

 

Personally for me(not the fact I work for a Subaru dealer), I rather know I have a 3 year 36,000 mile warranty on my short block replacement and if there is a problem, knowing the dealership/subaru will back it verse just a piece of mind the guy has worked on Boxers before.

 

Again I am just speculating from my personal experience. Again, he can have whoever he wants do the work, but knowing the pro's and con's of what can happen is better than not knowing anything.

I am giving my views on this being I see this often and have seen people have mechanics they told me they trusted, mess up their cars and also offer nothing to help them. Just putting out my 02 from my experiences being we are here for, to learn something.

 

Personally for me(not the fact I work for a Subaru dealer), I rather know I have a 3 year 36,000 mile warranty on my short block replacement and if there is a problem, knowing the dealership/subaru will back it verse just a piece of mind the guy has worked on Boxers before.

 

Again I am just speculating from my personal experience. Again, he can have whoever he wants do the work, but knowing the pro's and con's of what can happen is better than not knowing anything.

 

I understand your concerns, but trust me. I would'nt let someone work on this thing if they didnt have my COMPLETE confidence in them.

 

Worst case scenario, if something bad does happen, I can buy a new engine at the list price of 1,900 and he'll install it for free. Even if this failed and I bought a new engine to install, the cost of all that would STILL be less than what dealerships have quoted me to put one in. Either way I still come out on top.

 

Now, can we please change the discussion of this thread finally? I created it because not many people have rebuilt N/A subes on this site, and I'm trying to produce some useful info/ pictures to assist with other people who may have to do this in the future, I am not interested in arguing. I also want to learn as much as I can in the next couple weeks before this goes in on what other mods, if anything I can do.

 

GEE-OTTO

 

Unfortunately the high end internals I was speaking of just isnt in my budget right now. But that doesnt mean Im not making any upgrades.

 

A list of the OEM parts we've ordered include:

 

-Oil Pump

-Water Pump

-Head Gasket Kit

-Valve Cover Gasket Set

-All new belts

-Thermostat

-PCV

-Elbow hose off the Water Pump

 

Labor included:

 

-Re-machining Rod #3, which was beat the bearing to a pulp

-Polishing the crankshaft (seen in the plastic bag on the table in my pics)

-Removing all metal fragments/cleaning the heads

-Painting the entire engine silver to prevent corrosion (and to make it look nice)

-Painting the intake manifold, which you can see I've already done.

 

Aftermarket parts being installed:

 

-ACL Racing Main/Rod bearing set ($87 bucks compared to $230 OEM - a steal!)

-Exedy Stage 1 organic clutch (my stock one was on its way out)

-Exedy Lightweight Flywheel

 

 

Plus I'll probably end up putting a short throw shifter in there as well, but don't know which brand yet. Whats with the TGV deletes? I've heard of it being done but dont really know what that is.

I didn't think I was arguing, just providing a different perspective from professional experience. Anyways, good luck with it, hope it turns out for you.

I am giving my views on this being I see this often and have seen people have mechanics they told me they trusted, mess up their cars and also offer nothing to help them. Just putting out my 02 from my experiences being we are here for, to learn something.

 

Personally for me(not the fact I work for a Subaru dealer), I rather know I have a 3 year 36,000 mile warranty on my short block replacement and if there is a problem, knowing the dealership/subaru will back it verse just a piece of mind the guy has worked on Boxers before.

 

Again I am just speculating from my personal experience. Again, he can have whoever he wants do the work, but knowing the pro's and con's of what can happen is better than not knowing anything.

 

 

Oh so you work for Subaru as a tech ? And youre saying if they replace the engine you get 3yr/36K on all the repairs well that is a good piece of mind to have. I thought dealers just shunned engine replacements and looked for any and all ways to shaft the customer I mean that what car dealerships are about right? After I got word that putting headers and custom exhaust wouldnt void my warranty I gained a lil more hope in them