Stiff Clutch Pedal Question

I absolutely love my '05 LGT due to my superiority at killing other cars through curves and turns, and can live with nearly all its "faults". The one thing that is really killing me (it's starting to slowly kill off my left knee, at least) is the clutch pedal feel. This post might seem like I'm getting into some really strange and over-the-top specifics, but it's affecting my ergonomics while driving the car. Any help or insight, however, would be very much appreciated.

 

I'm the 2nd owner; 1st owner provided all service records. I believe the clutch is the stock OEM one, w/ 45K miles. Miraculously, it hasn't slipped--yet... which is nice.

 

However, when depressing it, it gets increasingly and nearly infinitely stiffer as I try to mash it down to the floor panel. The pedal feels like it requires considerable effort from the leg to push it in.

 

When wearing mens' size 11.5 tennis shoes and trying to have the ball of my left foot make contact with the clutch pedal shoe, I can feel the left side of my shoe hit the floorboard as it curves upward to form the dead pedal. At the same time, I can feel the top of my shoe bend into the clutch pedal "stalk". Therefore, I've ground my gears a few times as the these two things prevent me from fully disengaging the clutch-- in other words, I'm not pressing all the way down to the floor.

 

Now, if I tried positioning my left foot more to the right, so that now the ball of my left foot falls off to the right of the clutch pedal-- and I guess the "metatarsals" of my left foot are now the main contact point on the clutch pedal, this introduces another set of interfering issues. Namely, especially when downshifting / rev-matching, the right side of my left shoe will rub against the left side of my right shoe, if my right foot is on the brake pedal. You can imagine all forms of ugly just happening from this (e.g. missing pedal engagement of either clutch or brake, mental lapses, etc.)

 

I've even tried using the part of my left foot right above my *heel* as a contact point for the clutch pedal, but that was a futile exercise as my left foot was frequently suspended in mid-air, which gets tiring after a few tries!

 

And, as with others before who've posted, I feel that the clutch engagement point is vague.

 

Meanwhile, tonight I brought my car over to my Mitsu Evo 8 RS buddy's house and we swapped cars for the night. He's got a newly OEM resurfaced flywheel, and a newly replaced OEM clutch.

 

When we met up a few hours later, we traded notes. My observations about his clutch and shifting was that the Evo's clutch pedal engagement feedback was *very* positive. Within two starts from a full stop, I could easily anticipate and feel exactly where the engagement point was approaching. Also, the Evo's clutch pedal was significantly lighter in feeling. I used far lesser leg effort than I'd need to in my LGT. Lastly, his engagement point was significantly higher than my LGT's-- something that felt better to me, than my LGT's "somewhere-around-an-inch-off-the-floor" engagement point. And finally, my left foot felt very comfortable pushing the pedal to the floor. No physical impediments of any type at all; I can push the clutch pedal completely flat to the floor without anything getting in the way, whether it's the side of the dead pedal or my right foot.

 

My friend observed that my clutch pedal required significantly more effort to depress and engage. In a traffic situation, he stalled multiple times, and found the engagement point harder to find. He had smaller feet than mine and didn't have any opinions about pedal spacing.

 

As a side note: he and I both agreed his Evo's clutch experience felt more similar to the BMW's I've had before than my LGT.

 

I've spent many hours reading many clutch posts on this forum (e.g. "Act Clutch. I WIN!" thread, etc.) and had *thought* that a lighter flywheel would at least address my stiff clutch pedal complaint. However, I'm reading other posts and it seems that a lighter flywheel would actually increase the stiffness of the clutch pedal, and mean my left leg would require even more effort to engage the clutch pedal vs. an OEM clutch. Although, it does seem that a lighter flywheel provides better feedback? I've even read posts that seem to come off as the newer LGT OEM clutch / FW / something significantly reduces leg effort to depress the clutch pedal, but who knows if I'm just blowing smoke now.

 

So now, I feel confused.

 

I have a budget of up to $1500 to get everything done right. I'm looking for a solution that would at least lighten the clutch pedal effort as my top priority-- and possibly simultaneously also provide better feedback for the clutch engagement. I'd also welcome reasonable suggestions on how to provide more space for my left foot when pressing the clutch in (e.g. thinning the dead pedal, modifying the clutch pedal "shaft" somehow, etc.), but they're lesser priorities. Of course, I'm not willing to install something that'll significantly reduce the durability of any other mechanical portion of the car.

 

I guess I miss the "light" BMW clutch pedal feel + positive engagement feedback.

 

If I'm unable to find any reasonable solution, I might be forced to sell the car to save my knee as it feels like it's deteriorating by the day.

 

Any words of wisdom or light-shedding on this issue?

my advice. just drive the car. get used to it. my car's clutch is heavy also..

 

But i guess it's not abnormal, hearing your problem.

 

try bleeding clutch fluid and see if it helps. i really think it's just a "i'm used to something else" problem.

 

after i drive my legacy my miatas clutch goes straight to the floor. no effort in comparison. but after driving the legacy for 2 days straight, the legacy's clutch pedal seems very civil.

 

also.. ur left leg will only get stronger as a result of this

go drive a cobra around the block then come back and complain.

 

 

im sure other cars have a stiff clutch but i dont have experience with them

Thanks for the suggestions, but unfortunately, my left knee's cracking and popping more than ever.

 

I've felt I've given the car a fair chance to complement me by driving it a lot over the past 4-5 months.

 

lawl, what are the chances that bleeding clutch fluid would help?

 

I'm already complaining as it is, and so are my left leg / knee / foot, without having to drive a Cobra-- but now I know what to expect getting into one.

 

Also, stop-and-go traffic is torture, and could actually be painful (to my hip as well).

I remember when I had my MT 05 and how on the first few days I thought the clutch was a little heavy. I got used to it after a month. It is not a Honda clutch for sure, but I loved it for what it was, a stiff clutch.

 

Sorry but no input on what you can do, but I think the Legacy just has a stiff clutch.

 

X

You sure that is an OEM clutch?

Bleeding the clutch will not help; if there is air in the system; bleeding it will make the effort harder not lighter.

 

You can try replacing the slave cylinder; it is easy to do, relatively cheap and it can sometimes help.

There are places that will make a custom needle bearing Pressure Plate that will have about the same clamping force as stock but less pedal effort (about 30% less).

 

Just an idea. But it would cost you about $400 or more in parts plus labour.

After owning dozens of manual transmission vehicles, I have found that this one is unique as to how it feels. It not as light as my 944, but it's not as heavy as my Jeep. The Jeep clutch will actually make my leg shake if I try to hold it in too long. The LGT seems softer than that too me. I also have issues with my feet bumping each other depending upon which shoes I wear. I usually put the seat as far forward as I can and use the pump to lift the back of the seat. I also make it apoint to remove my wallet when driving the car.

Thanks for the suggestions, but unfortunately, my left knee's cracking and popping more than ever.

 

I've felt I've given the car a fair chance to complement me by driving it a lot over the past 4-5 months.

 

lawl, what are the chances that bleeding clutch fluid would help?

 

I'm already complaining as it is, and so are my left leg / knee / foot, without having to drive a Cobra-- but now I know what to expect getting into one.

 

Also, stop-and-go traffic is torture, and could actually be painful (to my hip as well).

 

maybe your just old an worn out?

use your ankle and toe more.. using the finer motor skills is a lot easier to deal with.. you're probably experiencing a lot of the quads doing most of the work, which then relies the knee to be more of a fixated portion of your motion, which then you are putting stress on your knee.. you need to relax your leg all together.

I thought the clutch was stiff, until my brother bought the a Cobra...Man you get a work out working the clutch on his car! So I agree with MMS

I actually wouldn't mind trying replacing a few things to see if it helps, so I'll go ahead and try swapping out the slave cylinder.

 

And I'll definitely try the ankle and toe more. I've kind of began adapting to this a couple days ago. Remember, I'm going nuts trying all sorts of permutations of positioning of every part of my left leg. I'll give that another month's worth of driving and see how it turns out.

at first, i thought it was a poor design of the clutch work, but then I realized that the GT's clutch action is very similar to an Evo.. it's more of a push forward than a swinging motion like the WRX.. this was something i had to get used to..

I don't know if this has been mentioned but if you could meet up with other members and feel how their clutch (stock clutch of course) feels. At least you will know if it is just your clutch or just how the clutch feel is on this car. Maybe go to the dealer and sit/drive an LGT MT.

 

Also, like Xenonk mentioned, you may want to move you seat back and use your ankles and toes. It is more of a push forward. Size 11.5 your probably around 6'.

i think the 05's have a stiffer clutch than the 06's (the ones i have driven) i think they changed something after 05

Great suggestions, XenonK and NewLegGT. And NewLegGT, you're right on the dot. I'm a peep above 6'.

 

Ever since I bought the GT, I'd been mostly pushing in / pulling out my *whole leg*, like a pushrod suspended in mid-air. I'd never let the leg rest on the ankle. The only time of "rest", or contact, that my left foot would have are 1) with the clutch pedal, and 2) on the dead pedal. Exactly as XenonK described, quads are stressed out, stressing my hip, my knees are locked but buckling, etc. It was just a mess.

 

Today, I intentionally clocked 100+ miles in freeway, local, and rush-hour traffic types, to try out . Now, instead of keeping my leg suspended in mid-air if I'm going from gear-to-gear, I'm actually anchoring my left foot heel pretty close to where the floor starts to angle up into the "firewall", or whatever you call that "wall" behind the pedals. So, my left heel acted as an almost permanent pivot, while the majority of my force to push in or hold the clutch came from my foot + toes, instead of the knee / quads, which is what I used to do.

 

The *very* preliminary observation is that my left leg feels far less tired today than I can ever remember in the GT. It's almost a complete 180 degrees from how I've felt about the clutch for the last month.

 

Here's something else I'm recalling: in my mom's '86 Volvo 240, her clutch has almost 2/3rd's the travel, and requires about 50% of the effort, of the GT. I also remember telling my mom that her car seemed "much easier" to drive than my GT. The biggest factor was my ability to plant my heel, and within the range of pivot, I could both fully depress, and fully allow the clutch pedal to spring back. It swings, like the WRX. I remember the BMW's I drove seemed to "swing" as well.

 

I think what's also happening was when my BMW track buddies taught me stick about a year ago when I was part of the BMWCCA, there were a few things they adamantly drilled into me: 1) Once the clutch catches, immediately and fully release the clutch pedal, 2) Don't apply any unnecessary pressure on the clutch pedal (along with 3) never rest your hand on the stick as it messes up the syncho's, and 4) when pressing the clutch in, fully let off on the gas).

 

The range of motion just the foot + toes with the ankle fixed on the floor is less than the infinite range of motion that moving my whole leg could provide. Maybe because of this, I unconsciously adopted the whole leg clutch motion, as I found myself violating the first two clutch rules that I mentioned.

 

If I'm screwing any mechanical parts up because I can't bend my foot from it's 90-deg resting position to a 45-deg upward/downward position enough so that it's completely off the clutch pedal, so be it.

 

Again, my apologies for getting into sleep-inducing, over-the-top particulars, but you know what? The driving experience definitely seems to have improved today. I'll keep this up and see how far I can go with this.

bobo69-- what changed with the 06's that gave it less required clutch effort?

I was fairly certain I was going to have to sell off the GT because what I thought were personal ergonomic issues with the clutch would remain unaddressed. Mid-day today, I even went so far as to go, uhh, used Camry shopping. Yeah-- I had my contingency plans ready. Pretty sad. I even found a 2000 V6 one for only $6500 that looked awesome! ... for a Camry.

 

Only to discover that, the later I drove, the less tiring my clutch leg would feel compared to the same point last night.

 

I'll give the GT another month... hopefully "she" and I can work something out. I'd really hate to lose this car, with all its unique features and very composed handling.

You're not the only one with a fairly heavy clutch. I've been driving mine for almost a year now and have always thought it to be pretty heavy. I was lucky enough to get to drive some other LGT's from around the area and I found that all the others needed a significantly lower amount of effort to push it in. I'm pretty sure they were all '05's except for the '06 spec b.

 

All in all, it's not that big of a deal to me since I use the aforementioned ankle/foot way of modulating the clutch. But yeah, you're not the only one out there with a heavy clutch. Just think of it as working out your left leg

Update:

 

I just went straight out of my '05 LGT 5-spd and into a manual '08 Forester XT only because dealer didn't have any manual Legacy's in stock. To use a paraphrase often seen on these forums, when I tried out the clutch pedal on the Forester, "I nearly punched a hole straight through the floor."

 

The Forester pedal effort was anywhere from 50-75% less than my Legacy's. Is the Forester clutch pedal innately lighter than the Legacy's (has anyone done this comparison before)? Are the clutch mechanisms between the two vehicles similar, and if so, can I conclude that there HAS to be a way to make my clutch pedal lighter?

 

Also, the ankle/foot method plain doesn't work, barefoot, and barely works with just socks on. Gotta have shoes. The pedal shoe doesn't pivot itself and has enough traction that sliding a bare foot just doesn't work out.

 

I'm taking my Legacy into Street Image in Baldwin Park, CA tomorrow for a final verdict....

honestly i dont know if anything changed or not its just a hunch.

go drive a cobra around the block then come back and complain.

 

 

im sure other cars have a stiff clutch but i dont have experience with them

 

I had a cobra...would get cramps in my left calf after a long day

...MY ANSWER:

 

GET DRIVING SHOES!!!

 

http://www.piloti.com/products/product_details.aspx?cat_id=3&prod_id=900&prod_sku=PR16-2

 

INSTANT "HEEL-TOE" FOR DUMMYS SOLUTION!!!

 

I have gout on my 2nd toe (next to big toe) and when it inflames...it kills me to press down the clutch. I have over 68,000 miles on my car and with all that heavy pushing it loosened my "STi" pedal. So I took a look at how the dealer installed the pedal. When loosened you can actually move it around. so i moved mine as far to the left and down as possible. I even went further to move my brake pedal closer to the gas pedal. Tightened everyting up...nice easy...penniless setup. But the shoes rock too...not bulky...just slightly wide in the heel...thats the key...very comfortable too. Fire retardent as well!

 

CRAZY KEN

as the clutch wears out, the pedal effort should lessen as well.. at some point a heated clutch will feel soft and start to have no feel whatsoever.. it's better that is a little stiffer as it's easier to just balance the car during the creeping moments of stop-and-go traffic.. I find it easier to push on the clutch just enough to creep the car.