Does E85 fuel work with our Legacy GTs?

Does E85 fuel work with our Legacy GTs? I hear that is is between 100-105 octane.

no

its not on this list so i would assume no

 

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/byfueltype.htm

The manual says absolutely not.

rats - 100+ octane sounded sweet. I'll continue with 93 and 94 when I can find it.

There is a lot of information on E85 in this wikipedia article, particularly the part about its use in standard engines... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85#Use_in_standard_engines

 

The last couple paragraphs of that section speak specifically about turbocharged cars.

 

The summary seems to be that you probably *could* run straight E85, but the risks far outweigh any potential gains. I'd stick to what the manual says on this one.

You could run ~50/50 and be ok but you'll only save $1-$2/ fillup at todays rate and you'll lose ~15-20% fuel economy. Now, if you tune for it you can run 100% E85 but again, you'll lose ~30% fuel economy.

I wonder if COBB or TDC could come up with a map for E85? You'd want to run a diesel truck-style water separator to keep water out of your engine though. Who's going to volunteer their Leggy first?

 

-Ryan

Also, the wikipedia article planigan linked to states that turbocharged cars see better fuel economy with E85 than N/A cars - turbocharged cars win with the high octane of E85. You might not see the 30% fuel economy loss that can happen with N/A cars.

 

-Ryan

why would you wanna mess with your car & try it??? What do you think the advantage would be to running E85?

I wonder if COBB or TDC could come up with a map for E85? You'd want to run a diesel truck-style water separator to keep water out of your engine though. Who's going to volunteer their Leggy first?

 

-Ryan

 

I'm thinking you have other issues beside a different map. The whole fuel system has to be able to withstand the effects of a higher concentration of alcohol.

I don't know about you, but for me, it's not good enough to "think." I want to "know" cold hard facts.

 

The fact is that alocohols, including Ethanol in that percentage solution, are corrosive. You're likely to have pretty bad long term effects. Subaru didn't design our engines or use appropriate materials to be able to burn E85.

 

I wouldn't try it if you value your investment until there is conclusive proof that it's safe and that SOA warrants your car for such use.

The fact is that alocohols, including Ethanol in that percentage solution, are corrosive. You're likely to have pretty bad long term effects. Subaru didn't design our engines or use appropriate materials to be able to burn E85.

'm thinking you have other issues beside a different map. The whole fuel system has to be able to withstand the effects of a higher concentration of alcohol.

Exactly. There is a lot more going on in vehicles designed for straight E85 (like the FlexFuel cars) than just different tuning. Compression ratios, fuel system, etc all need to be designed a bit differently.

 

But, like the article and some other posters mentioned turbo'd cars are particularly suited to E85. It would be interesting if subaru came out with a line of turbocharged E85 compatible vehicles.

There are a few guys in my area that have been playing with blending E85 and gasoline in their STi's. No issues to speak of.......

On nasioc there are a few guys who have run straight e85. So it could be done, the question is how the fuel system would hold up, but those guys have gone lots of miles so I would say it could handle it.

 

Flex fuel gm trucks just have a very good computer that can learn really well and has the tuning, and the fuel tank has a sensor that can tell how much e85 is in there. Those are the only differences in the gm trucks. Other cars I have no idea what they change.

doesnt the alcohol eat away all the rubber seals after enough time?"

doesnt the alcohol eat away all the rubber seals after enough time?"

 

Ethanol is not nearly as agressive as other alcohols. I don't think it would cause any issues....

Ethanol should not degrade any of your fuel system components any worse than gasoline... remember, all cars are designed to run up to 10% or 15% (don't recall exact #) ethanol... over time it would be just as corossive in small % as large. I've run 100% E85 in my RS-T and my fuel economy went strait into the crapper, the car loved it and pulled like a raped ape but there were too many negatives like not starting in near freezing temps to random misfire CELs and random rough running. Right now the bang for buck isn't there.

BTW... you all DO know that E85 is 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline....right?

LOL who doesnt?

LOL who doesnt?

 

I thought maybe some people didn't know......

 

For winter driving.... you (or the service station) will have to dilute the E85 down with gasoline to around E65 or E70 in colder climates so that there is enough vapor pressure for your car to start up.

I'm not sure where some of these comments are coming from without supporting documentation.

 

Ethanol is indeed corrosive just as other alcohols are. Look here:

 

http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy02osti/30849.pdf

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85

 

You must have stainless steel tanks and specially designed hoses as examples. Again, the SOA manual states that you should not use E85.

 

Read this too:

 

Risks

 

E85 can cause damage, since prolonged exposure to high concentrations of ethanol may corrode metal and rubber parts in older engines (pre-1988) designed primarily for gasoline. The hydroxyl group on the ethanol molecule is an extremely weak acid, but it can enhance corrosion for some natural materials. For post-1988 fuel-injected engines, all the components are already designed to accommodate E10 (10% ethanol) blends through the elimination of exposed magnesium and aluminum metals and natural rubber and cork gasketed parts. Hence, there is a greater degree of flexibility in just how much more ethanol may be added without causing ethanol-induced damage, varying by automobile manufacturer. Anhydrous ethanol in the absence of direct exposure to alkali metals and bases is non-corrosive; it is only when water is mixed with the ethanol that the mixture becomes corrosive to some metals. Hence, there is no appreciable difference in the corrosive properties between E10 and a 50:50 blend of E10 gasoline and E85 (47.5% ethanol), provided there is no water present, and the engine was designed to accommodate E10. Nonetheless, operation with more than 10% ethanol has never been recommended by car manufacturers in non-FFVs.

 

Operation on up to 20% ethanol is generally considered safe for all post 1988 cars and trucks. This equates to running a blend of 23.5% of E85. Starting in 2013[5], at least one US state (Minnesota) already has legislatively mandated and planned to force E20 (20% ethanol) into their general gasoline fuel-distribution network. Details of how this will work for individual vehicle owners while maintaining automobile manufacturer warranties, despite exceeding the manufacturer's maximum warranted operation percentage of 10% of ethanol in fuel, are still being worked as of late-2005. However, the choice of transitioning to a 20% ethanol blend of gasoline is not without precedent; Brazil, in its conversion to an ethanol-fueled economy, determined that operation with up to 22% ethanol in gasoline was safe for the cars and trucks on the road in Brazil at the time, and the conversion to a 20% blend was accomplished with only minor issues arising for older vehicles. Recently, conversion to a 24% blend was accomplished in Brazil.

 

In addition to corrosion, there is also a risk of increased engine wear for non-FFV engines that are not specifically designed for operation on high levels (i.e., for greater than 10%) of ethanol. The risk primarily comes in the rare event that the E85 fuel ever becomes contaminated with water. For water levels below approximately 0.5% to 1.0% contained in the ethanol, no phase separation of gasoline and ethanol occurs. For contamination with 1% or more water in the ethanol, phase separation occurs, and the ethanol and water mixture will separate from the gasoline. This can be simply observed by pouring a mixture of suspected water-contaminated E85 fuel in a clear glass tube, waiting roughly 30 minutes for the separation to occur (if it does), and then inspecting the sample. If there is water contamination of above 1% water in the ethanol, a clear separation of alcohol (with water) and gasoline will be clearly visible, with the colored gasoline floating above the clear alcohol and water mixture.

For a badly-contaminated amount of water in the ethanol and water mixture that separates from the gasoline (i.e., approximately 11% water, 89% ethanol, equivalent to 178 proof alcohol), considerable engine wear will occur, especially during times while the engine is heating up to normal operating temperatures, as for example just after starting the engine, when low temperature partial combustion of the water-contaminated ethanol mixture is taking place. This wear, caused by water-contaminated E85, is the result of the combustion process of ethanol, water, and gasoline producing considerable amounts of formic acid (HCOOH, also known as methanoic acid, and sometimes written as CH2O2).

In addition to the production of formic acid occurring for water-contaminated E85, smaller amounts of acetaldehyde (CH3CHO) and acetic acid (C2H4O2) are also formed for water-contaminated ethanol combustion. Nonetheless, it is the formic acid that is responsible for the majority of the rapid increase in engine wear.

Engines specifically designed for FFVs employ soft nitride coatings on their internal metal parts to provide formic acid wear resistance in the event of water contamination of E85 fuel. Also, the use of lubricant oil (motor oil) containing an acid neutralizer is necessary to prevent the damage of oil-lubricated engine parts in the event of water contamination of fuel. Such lubricant oil is required by at least one manufacturer of FFVs even to this day (Chrysler).

 

For non-FFVs burning E85 in greater than 23.5% E85 mixtures (20% ethanol), the remedy for accidentally getting a tank of water-contaminated E85 (or gasoline) while preventing excessive engine wear is to change the motor oil as soon as possible after either burning the fuel and replacing it with non-contaminated fuel, or after immediately draining and replacing the water-contaminated fuel. The risk of burning slightly water-contaminated fuel with low percentages of water (less than 1%) on a long commute is minimal; after all, it is the low temperature combustion of water contaminated ethanol and gasoline that causes the bulk of the formic acid to form; burning a slightly-contaminated mix of water (less than 1%) and ethanol quickly, in one long commute, will not likely cause any appreciable engine wear past the first 15 miles of driving, especially once the engine warms up and high temperature combustion occurs exclusively.

why would you wanna mess with your car & try it??? What do you think the advantage would be to running E85?

 

My reasoning for running E85 in my legacy (at least hypothetically - I'm not up to voiding my warranty yet) would be to reduce foreign oil dependence, for higher octane, and for lower cost.

 

Feel free to debate these points - there are a large number of potential downsides to using ethanol, including the 30% power decrease in improperly engineered vehicles, and ethanol's inability to be transported in pipelines due to it picking up too much water en route.

 

As for fuel system compatibility, my friend the fuel system engineer tells me that the systems he deals with are all made to be ethanol friendly so that only one part needs to be made for use in regular and flex fuel vehicles, and also for use with 10% ethanol fuels.

 

However, ethanol is, in my (small?) mind currently the only viable alternative to gasoline. We've been running E85 Ford Tauruses, GMC vans, and Chrysler minivans at my work for six years. The only problem so far was a Chrysler minivan that wouldn't start when it was 10 degrees F outside (yay michigan). Fuel cells are a ways off, hybrids are too expensive for the returns, and electric cars still need to be plugged in. I'm hoping ethanol can get us to the next "big thing," be it fuel cells or Mr. Fusions.

 

-Ryan

(who really just wants to go faster and pay less for gas)

^^^Ok, I don't wanna get into a whole political debate about it. I'm just sayin if you don't know if it's gonna mess up your car I see no reason to chance it.

^^^Ok, I don't wanna get into a whole political debate about it. I'm just sayin if you don't know if it's gonna mess up your car I see no reason to chance it.

 

 

I paid a whole lotta money for my car and I'm far from rich. I'm not gonna chance it.