Advice for VF40 failure

Update 2013-04-17, 04:17 PM

 

I spoke with Adrian at Cobb Tuning Plano and he sent me some prices:

 

OEM VF40 - $1113.39

UP - $215

Gaskets for UP - $11-12

Heatshields

AP-002 - $595

DP - $595

Gaskets for DP - $25

 

When I first spoke with him he recommended against any of the BNR turbos and instead opting for a Blouch XT or a Tomioka TD05. He basically said the BNRs were crap and suffered similar issues I'm guessing, in design to the old stocks. I'm planning on doing UP/DP since I'm going to have the turbo off anyway. His quote of $1113.39 seems steep to me for the turbo, when I am looking at new BNRs for $750 on their site. So ... what am I missing? I also asked him about an ERZ DP I saw here in town locally, but he said I should opt for either a Cobb or a Perrin Divorced DP, citing reasons that sounded to me that I shouldn't skimp on the DP and the design needs to be right for my car. I asked him about putting a VF52 on it and he said that'd be fine but I'd need a pro tune, and it would probably only get about 15HP extra difference.. So basically what you guys said on the tuning.

 

So ... thoughts on what turbo is my best choice? He's recommending keeping stock, but doing AP/DP/UP. If I'm getting the AP, shouldn't I go for the tune and diff turbo anyway? What's wrong with the BNRs? And shouldn't I be able to find a VF40 or 52 for a lot less?

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Hey gang! Apologies in advance because I've seen many posts with similar questions. I have been a member of this forum for years, but don't think I really started posting until now. Please be gentle if I posted something I wasn't supposed to post.

 

So my question is, for someone who's not rallying or modding much, and not driving the car too hard, and since it's an automatic, what's the best recommendation for low price and reliability as to repair my beloved LGT with a failing VF40?

 

 

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OP 2013-04-09, 04:23 PM

Backstory and information below (in case you didn't want to read, you can just read the main question above):

 

I have an '05 LGT Ltd Automatic, with 80k miles. VF40 is failing. I diagnosed the problem on my own, first checking obvious areas for signs of the rattling based on forum posts here (healshields, broken rings, main bearing or rod bearing or even a bent or loose valve in the head, etc.). Couldn't find any problems, so we took the turbo off, ran compressed air through it, noticed no shaft play. Checked the CC, no issues. Replaced my banjo/union screw going to the turbo, panned the oil, everything looks clean. Put it back together and the noise persisted. After some time with listening devices, had believed we narrowed down the sound as coming from the compressor wheel housing area of the turbo.

 

I took the car to Subaru in Plano, TX and they stated as well that the problem is the turbo. I was told by the two techs who looked at my LGT that the turbo has a bearing that is starting to shear, and is coming apart. They recommend replacing the VF40 with a new one, which they claim doesn't have the same issues as my old VF40, and shouldn't die after 60k like most of the '05 models turbos. They also said I should drop the oil pan, replace the pickup tube strainer, and the banjo filters and gaskets.

 

Car is almost all stock. I had a friend who's a Subaru rally winner take a look at it, and he recommended either rebuilding the turbo, replacing with a new VF40, or possibly upgrading to something like a VF49/51, based on his 2/2.5 STi experience. He stated the first things he would change beyond tires and exhaust would be the up pipe. I was a bit worried on that front because the car is currently registered in Alabama, so I don't have to worry about the CC/emissions. However, it had been previously registered in states that do have emission testing, and probably will be again in the future--so I likely want to keep CC so it won't fail an emission test when hooked up.

 

So my question is, for someone who's not rallying or modding much, and not driving the car too hard, and since it's an automatic, what's the best recommendation for low price and reliability as to repair my beloved LGT with a failing VF40? Rebuild? Replace? If so, replace with what? Do I replace up pipe as well? If so, what do I do about emission since the CC feed is on the up, and if I'm going as far as to replace the up, should I do the downpipe as well?

 

Subaru quoted just shy of $3000.00, and a friend quoted me $1100-$1200. I need to do better.

 

Thank you!

Plano TX, you do know who is there ... don't you ?

 

It's some place called Cobb Tuning look them up.

 

 

Get a vf52 and a catless up and down pipe, then get the car tuned.

 

Do not start the engine with that old vf40 on it.

 

Have you buddy help you do the work and get the car tuned.

Plano TX, you do know who is there ... don't you ?

 

It's some place called Cobb Tuning look them up.

 

 

Get a vf52 and a catless up and down pipe, then get the car tuned.

 

Do not start the engine with that old vf40 on it.

 

Have you buddy help you do the work and get the car tuned.

 

I'm not familiar with who's here in Dallas. I've only been here a week and the car came from Birmingham Alabama. Your reply is exactly why I came here immediately, I'll check out Cobb Tuning thank you very much. Please let me know if you think of anything else.

 

Oil pan was good when I dropped it a few weeks ago. Looked very clean, changed the oil and put on the new banjo. Which is why I felt comfortable driving the car from Alabama to Dallas. Really thankful I found out it was the turbo before I lost the whole car.

 

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

They also said I should drop the oil pan, replace the pickup tube strainer, and the banjo filters and gaskets.

Good advice, you'll want to do this. The cat in the uppipe is basically meaningless for emissions, unless you're planning to register the car in CA, you'll be fine without it.

 

Option 1: Stay stock and replace with VF40 or VF46. Advantage, lowest price. Replace uppipe (optional).

 

Option 2: Mild upgrade (Stage 2+). BNR 16g or VF52 turbo. Replace with catted downpipe. Custom tune. Advantage, significant gain in power.

 

Option 3: Big upgrade (Stage 3+). BNR 18g-20g (E85?). Larger fuel injectors, new downpipe, new intercooler. Custom tune. Advantage, massive power.

How much difference in price are we talking about, going for option two or option 3? I can search the forums and see if someone's offloading a turbo, otherwise what's my best bet for where to buy the new turbo?

 

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

Good advice, you'll want to do this. The cat in the uppipe is basically meaningless for emissions, unless you're planning to register the car in CA, you'll be fine without it.

 

Option 1: Stay stock and replace with VF40 or VF46. Advantage, lowest price. Replace uppipe (optional).

 

Option 2: Mild upgrade (Stage 2+). BNR 16g or VF52 turbo. Replace with catted downpipe. Custom tune. Advantage, significant gain in power.

 

Option 3: Big upgrade (Stage 3+). BNR 18g-20g (E85?). Larger fuel injectors, new downpipe, new intercooler. Custom tune. Advantage, massive power.

 

To clarify:

 

• You would currently have three CCs: one in the up-pipe, and two in the down-pipe. 2007+ LGTs only have the two in the down-pipe (though the newer cats may be more efficient).
  
• All options should involve replacing the up-pipe with a catless one. This is not something a dealership is allowed to do.
  
• For option two, if you use the stock intercooler as-is (not "bulletproofed"), then you'll want to have your tuner keep the boost under 16 PSI or so.
  
• I understand one would need/want a better fuel pump for option three, and different oil lines for the turbo for options two and three (see link below).
  

Info regarding BNR turbos for the LGT:

http://gonzaloherrero.com/bnr/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=86&Itemid=111

Six Star Speed will rebuild it for the least amount of $$$ (They also have some other Turbo Options)

 

BNR Supercars makes direct Bolt on Turbo Replacements (BNR 16G or 18G)

 

My choice was to go was to go Stage 2 (Not 2+) (VF40/Up & Downpipe + Pro tune) - But I was also in need of Timing Belt and other maintenance items that dropped my Budget.....

 

But if I had a few more $ BNR 18G was (and will be in a year or so) my choice of Turbos:wub:

 

But Option 3 requires Up/Down Pipe/Injectors/Fuel Pump and a Pro Tune:cool: - So that's quite a bit more than just the Turbo itself....

 

From the sounds of it I think you'd be happy with a simple Stage 2 - go with a rebuild for your VF40 and put the rest towards the UP/Down Pipe and Tune.

i was right where you are now w/ the brides ride except the turbo went to full fail due to clogging screen/oil starvation .

 

i went farther than it sounds like you have the budget for

 

the banjo bolts w/ the screens in them , yuk , i bought a new vf52 from subaru , moved the screened banjo bolt to the top of the avcs(?) solenoid and put the non screened banjo in the rear of the head where the oil feed line tee's to turbo and avcs .

 

the banjo on the top of the turbo is not the issue

 

been working w/ turbo cars for 28 years and have never seen a screen in the oil feed line until subarus , good idea , bad in the real world

 

cheapest way would be a new or rebuilt stock turbo , get rid of or move the screened banjo like i did , replace the oil drain back off turbo while you are there , a few gaskets , drive on

 

dropping the pan and cleaning is a great idea , if you're going that far put a killer bee pickup on

 

catless up pipe ? if you have the turbo off go ahead and spend the extra hundred bucks , more better and more piece of mind about the cat coming apart and wrecking your new turbo , why not do it ? make sure you get one that has the bung for the sensor or do the resistor mod

 

if it is all about the bottom line , bare minimum , buy a used or new turbo and pull the banjo off of back of head , yank the damn screen out of it , 2 banjo washers for that , 2 for up top on the turbo , a turbo base and outlet gasket , a new oil drain back hard line and rubber tube w/ gasket , you runnin

I just picked up a BNR 16g as my car is at 153K and original turbo. I am on limited budget so doing bare min turbo was $785 shipped from BNR. still haven't installed will be done at end of the month when I will have the money for a stg 1 tune. Doing all the mechanical work myself.

I feel im in the same predicament as op... starting to feel lagg in the turbo. Im at 145k miles on original. Is BNR 16g really much of a difference compared to stock turbo?

Im looking into a mild build. What Ive read just in this post alone has already given me plenty of insight as to where I want to go with the stage 2 upgrade. my budget is roughly $1500. Ill be doing labor on my own, besides the tune at the end of it all. Already have a spearco intercooler and just mufflers. I know Ill need the up and down pipes. (ordering invidias unless anyone has other options by next week)

 

Oh, and im 5EAT aswell, should i even really go with this upgrade or stick to stock???

and not trying to take op's thunder. my apologies if it comes off like that.

No worries on stealing my thunder. I was fortunate enough myself to have known a bit about the existing turbo issues, which is why I had been changing my banjo/union screws. When the car felt funny I had a strong gut feeling it would be the turbo. I had been collecting info from all over the web. I feel like writing Subaru of America and giving them hell because they built me a car that isn't reliable. Regardless of warranty, I would expect any other auto to last me 300k miles without having to dump a bunch of $ into it to correct issues. BNR actually has a summary on their Subaru page:

 

"The Legacy GT has an IHI VF40 turbocharger from the factory. Factory issues with oil starvation and contamination caused many early deaths of these units (most of which failed within 50K miles). The factory turbo oil supply lines have 3 restrictions built into the hard line. Two of which are .055" and the other is made into the banjo fitting on the top of the turbocharger which is .062". The factory banjo fitting in the head that feeds to the oil to the turbocharger/AVCS has a pressed in screen which often gets clogged by debris coming from the head. If you remove this screen, the turbocharger will get contaminated and die a miserable death. If you leave the filter installed, it will fill up with trash and starve the turbo from oil and again die a miserable death. Another common problem with the 2.5 engine is there are 2 solenoids called the oil control valves (OCV's) which are mounted on each valve cover. Those solenoids can and will malfunction. When this happens the oil pressure reduces drastically to the head causing starvation issues for the turbocharger. You should replace the OCV's at 75K miles as a maintenance procedure or if you have seen multiple turbo failures. The OCV's at the dealer are around $90 each."

 

motorbykemike is right though, and the cheapest method is probably going to be to find a turbo from someone on here. Otherwise, rebuild is $500, at which point I'd rather just spend the $250 on top of that and put in a new one. Of course I'm going to rip out that cat on the up, otherwise I feel like I'm putting the car at risk.

 

So now my choices are:

 

1. Find turbo and parts. Find out how much it's going to cost to have all the work done to correct Subaru's design flaws. Do the work, tuned. Give hell to Subaru.

 

or

 

2. Sell my LGT Ltd. Give hell to Subaru. Buy a different model year.

word... so your thinking the 5eat isnt worth upgrading???I feel I picked up this lgt at a killer deal for $5000 on feb 2013. all it needed (which I assumed) was valve cover gaskets, both front axles and rack n pinion... now that the turbo seems to be taking a dump, im questionable as to if I just restore to stock, or plan the mild build.... mmmm decisions, decisions. smh

Unless you want to be able to say (to a dealership eg) that your car is completely stock don't go with the VF40. You can drop in a 16g with no mods other than a tune, that's what I did. I paid someone $100 for their blown 16g core and BNR charged me $450 so I have a working turbo for $550.

where did u find the blown 16g???

word... so your thinking the 5eat isnt worth upgrading???I feel I picked up this lgt at a killer deal for $5000 on feb 2013. all it needed (which I assumed) was valve cover gaskets, both front axles and rack n pinion... now that the turbo seems to be taking a dump, im questionable as to if I just restore to stock, or plan the mild build.... mmmm decisions, decisions. smh

 

I think it's worth upgrading. I would go for the LCVT in a future Subaru if I want to stick to auto. For me it depended on the city I lived in, and my daily commute. I was driving the 5MT/6MT option, and it was too much for me in 45+ minute bumper-to-bumper stop and go traffic. Moving a few feet at a time was eventually sending pain up my legs. A combination of brand new Subaru, tight clutch and lack of seat adjustment options on the Outback I was driving, so I swapped for the 5EAT. You must have purchased the 5EAT for a reason as well. Availability, price, lack of knowing how to drive MT? Either way, if I wanted sheer stupid speed I'd just hop on a crotch rocket. The 5EAT is plenty fast for my needs, and would be even better with any of the BNRs. I'm thinking the 18.

The 18g from my understanding will also require fuel upgrades.

nice...

i got the 5eat bc of the deal on the car, its my 2nd subaru, and traffic in the OC freeways.

and just loved the wagon look compared to the sedan.

 

i feel im veering towards the 16g with minimal mods, up/down pipes, oil lines, and that banjo thingy everyone keeps mentioning.

 

ill make a thread once i start bringing in the parts.

 

p.s.

glad i signed up into this forum.

already feel a chill vibe from everyone.

 

thanks again

One item to consider, that i have not seen mentioned, is consideration for your automatic transmission.

If upgrading the power level, most have at a minum added a transmission oil cooler, and others have gone a step beyond by upgrading the transmission valve body to be able to handle the increased torque.

brides ride is 5eat also , i considered a bnr turbo but was pressed for time and the v52 was in stock , 15 miles from me

 

if i went bnr , it would be 16g w/ a 5eat just for spool up/lag reasons , if your not gonna throw a bunch of other stuff on the car , do you really need a higher flowing turbo ?

 

vf52 has a touch more lag than stock but very liveable

 

other than the few engine mods , and those just for piece of mind or upgrading worn out stock stuff , i think the thing makes plenty of power stock or near stock for a dd

 

chassis / suspension is where the fun comes w/ this car as far am i am concerned , i try to not slow down rather than have to brake in and accel out

 

there are some used stock turbos in the classifieds btw

Updated Original Post.

 

Shopping the forums for AP/DP/UP/Turbo and possibly heat shields.

 

"I spoke with Adrian at Cobb Tuning Plano and he sent me some prices:

 

OEM VF40 - $1113.39

UP - $215

Gaskets for UP - $11-12

Heatshields

AP-002 - $595

DP - $595

Gaskets for DP - $25

 

When I first spoke with him he recommended against any of the BNR turbos and instead opting for a Blouch XT or a Tomioka TD05. He basically said the BNRs were crap and suffered similar issues I'm guessing, in design to the old stocks. I'm planning on doing UP/DP since I'm going to have the turbo off anyway. His quote of $1113.39 seems steep to me for the turbo, when I am looking at new BNRs for $750 on their site. So ... what am I missing? I also asked him about an ERZ DP I saw here in town locally, but he said I should opt for either a Cobb or a Perrin Divorced DP, citing reasons that sounded to me that I shouldn't skimp on the DP and the design needs to be right for my car. I asked him about putting a VF52 on it and he said that'd be fine but I'd need a pro tune, and it would probably only get about 15HP extra difference.. So basically what you guys said on the tuning.

 

So ... thoughts on what turbo is my best choice? He's recommending keeping stock, but doing AP/DP/UP. If I'm getting the AP, shouldn't I go for the tune and diff turbo anyway? What's wrong with the BNRs? And shouldn't I be able to find a VF40 or 52 for a lot less?"

That price sounds about right for a brand new OEM turbo from Subaru. The cost of a turbo has very little correlation with the power.

 

With a downpipe and OEM turbo you could use an off-the-shelf Cobb tune, but you're really only saving the cost of a tune.

 

Your cheapest option is catless up-pipe and an OEM turbo, leaving the DP in place, but with zero power gain.

For that money you should get away from a vf...look into a Blouch 16G. You should be close to the number. It's a waste if time IMO to put a vf40 back on a Leggy...at minimal go vf48 or vf52 and source one used...

 

Too, I suggest you find a local open source tuner over the AP.

I agree the cost is too close to just putting something nicer in there. I'll shop around and see if I can find either a great deal on one of the OEMs (possibly used) or shell out for a better one. I'll look in to Blouch 16G as well. Is that my best bet? And does that mean steer clear of the BNRs?

BNR will post on here and help you out.

 

I went with a vf52, my Tuner feels better with it. He also likes other turbo's rather then chose something with a "g" in it.

 

He's tuned a large number of cars, I trust what he say's.

 

I'm making good numbers on a mustang dyno on stock fueling. Car gets good mpg, and is fun to drive on the backroads. The turbo has 30,000 miles on it at 21psi. I plan to drive this set up for the next 4/5 years if not more. It's my DD 19,000 miles since last May 20th

 

I got it from Mike at http://www.AZPinstalls.com $1030 shipped, I had it the next day.

 

 

 

In case you didn't know, mustang dyno's read low.