Choover1101 96 LGT Slow Build and Info Page

Thanks Setnev at the time I did that I had read about people doing brake swaps and losing cruise. I believe the threads I was reading pertained to newer models. Due to the legoness of Subarus I was concerned about that potential with that happening to my car. Upon finding it was not a problem I wanted to place my personal experience on here in case someone else went searching.

 

 

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So I was testing the material (PTFE) I used for making my intake spacers and was pleasantly surprised.

 

 

This is my first video so be nice.

 

Summary: 600 degrees F and no melty.

 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01JMZ1QEM/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Edited April 7, 2017 by choover1101

you should sandwich the ptfe between two pieces of aluminum and heat just one side up to see how much heat transfers through to the other piece. that would be a great test to see how much heat the intake would be avoiding from direct transfer out of the block

Bodecker has a data sheet on this already. Which is why I chose PTFE

 

PTFE: http://www.boedeker.com/ptfe_p.htm?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=PTFE%20Plastics&utm_content=teflon%20sheets&utm_term=teflon%20sheet&gclid=CKfO_8mJ79ECFVGewAodrXgE_A

Thermal Conductivity

(BTU-in/ft²-hr-°F) = 1.70

 

Standard Phenolic Materials used in Carb Spacers: http://www.boedeker.com/ilamp_p.htm

Thermal Conductivity

(BTU-in/ft²-hr-°F) = 2.03

 

Off Bodecker's website:

"NOTE: The information contained herein are typical values intended for reference and comparison purposes only. They should NOT be used as a basis for design specifications or quality control. Contact us for manufacturers' complete material property datasheets.

All values at 73°F (23°C) unless otherwise noted. "

Testing intake air temperature. While driving it stays around 140F. Under throttle it drops down to 135F. While sitting the gauge can climb as high as 170F. This is with an unmodified 2.5 intake. External temperature is 72F.

 

Edit: After heat soak has taken effect I am running 190F ish while driving. This is after a visit to a friend's work and going to get lunch at an eat in restaurant.

 

Still without any mods.

 

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Edited April 7, 2017 by choover1101

is that with or without the spacers? i never noticed if i had air temp available on my 95 and 96 models

No spacers. Finding a baseline.

I removed my power booster vacuum and re-tapped for 1/8" npt I then put in a digital temperature gauge in the A/C vent as shown in a previous post.

 

After driving a while and getting some good heat soak on the intake I am running around 190F driving. I will update the earlier post to reflect this.

 

Mods I plan to test.

1 Throttle body coolant bypass

2 Egr delete

3 Intake spacers

4 Intake heat shield over coolant crossover

Edited April 7, 2017 by choover1101

Do you just not have vacuum to the brake booster now? When I do my testing I'm just going to use an infrared laser thermometer and my OBD logger to collect data. My brakes are bad enough as it is, let alone without power assist haha

04 wrx front 04 legacy h6 rear booster disconnected currently.

 

Brakes were locked up when I got the car so first thing was to swap them.

 

 

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You posted after the test so I assume you aren't dead, and it even seems like you can still speak English. Burning PTFE releases phosgene species and a dozen other terrible things, some of which are *way* worse than phosgene. The accoustics in the video sounded like a small closed shed.

 

https://www.fluoridealert.org/wp-content/pesticides/teflon.decomposition.prod.htm

I am the shop manager at Bradycases.com our shop is around 120ft long 24ft tall and 40ft wide. First I want to thank you doublechaz for the warning about potential poisoning from PTFE (Teflon). I was not aware of the severity of dangers present in heating it with a torch. I am a try by doing type person.

 

In your link it states:

Abstract: The relative toxicities of thermal degradation products from four fluoropolymers were determined in rats. The polymers were polytetrafluoroethylene (9002-84-0) (PTFE), copolymers of vinylidene fluoride (75-38-7) and hexafluoropropene (116-15-4) with and without additives (VF2-A and VF2/HFP), and the terpolymers of PTFE, VF2, and HFP (VF2/HFP/TFE). Male Sprague-Dawley-rats were exposed for 30 minutes to the pyrolysis products of VF2/HFP, VF2/HFP-A, and VF2/HFP/TFE at 550 and 800 degrees-C, and to the pyrolysis products of PTFE at 625 and 800 degrees-C. Survivors were killed at 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, and 32 days postexposure and examined for pathological changes in organs and tissues. Hydrolyzable fluoride concentrations were

 

If I read this correct the rats were "exposed for 30 minutes" at "625 degrees and 800 degrees-C" (that is 1157 to 1472 degrees Fahrenheit) In no way did I even get close to that.

 

Also quoting from your article, ". Other kinds of industrial polymers were observed to produce lethal atmospheres under less drastic conditions than either form of Teflon."

 

And one more quote, "In the temperature range 300 to 360 degrees-C, hexafluoroethane (C2F6) and octafluorocyclobutane (C4F8) were identified as decomposition products."

 

It lists this (octafluorocyclobutane) as the lowest temperature and most deadly of the poisonous gasses produced beginning at 572 Degrees Fahrenheit which I did exceed.

 

In conclusion I thank you for leading me to this article and letting me know that I did indeed produce one of the most deadly gasses PTFE could produce. In future testing I plan to limit any temperatures of PTFE to under 400F to prevent the possibility of death. Once again in all sincerity I want to thank you doublechaz for linking this information. I also added a warning to the Youtube video.

Edited April 9, 2017 by choover1101

Good thinking on the video.

Glad you're ok. It sounded like the results are nothing, feeling like the flu, or dead depending on exposure and recovery is complete for the middle part.

 

I gave myself the flu feeling once by making a brass casting. I've paid a lot more attention to MSDS since then. Lots of things make bad fumes, and a few are deadly.

 

Brake clean and welding can kill at a few ppm, ptfe can kill below 1 ppm over time, burning freon can kill. Those are the only ones I know about that are really bad.

Lots of welding and burning things are bad in extreme cases or when it's chronic.

Choover was nice enough to send me a set of the spacers to demo for the 2.2 and here's my impressions so far, I like them a lot!

 

I got them bolted onto a spare head I had lying around and all in all I'm really impressed with it so far. I marked areas or possible changes with dry erase. I will probably attempt to dremel out that pocket in the center when I go to install them

http://i1317.photobucket.com/albums/t637/96Brighton/Subaru%2010_zpswazhph7p.jpg

 

The red ink is where the spacer does not sit flush with the inlet duck which is actually really close since the spacer was cloned off of an intake gasket (which are not known to be perfect)

http://i1317.photobucket.com/albums/t637/96Brighton/Subaru%2018_zpssslyuqfg.jpg

 

If you don't want to cut out the big section in the first picture, I will at least cut out this square because there is a raised section of the head that is not necessarily flush with the mating surface and I suspect it may cause a vacuum leak is left alone

http://i1317.photobucket.com/albums/t637/96Brighton/Subaru%2024_zpssd9blfmv.jpg

 

Also holy crap the PTFE stains super easy, the top is how dirty it got from just this test fitting, and that was after I wiped it down with isoprophyl, the bottom is the untouched one

http://i1317.photobucket.com/albums/t637/96Brighton/Subaru%2025_zpswhiqq9f5.jpg

 

Other observations, the ptfe is very soft and when trimming the edges with a razor blade, it's very easy to accidentally take off too much material.

I also wonder how they'll look after 40k or so on them, I doub't they'll look too pretty after lots of engine bay dirt haha. I would also recommend redrilling the holes with a drill press, the holes are EXACTLY round and I suspect there should be at least a minute amount of play for a nice seal. Maybe I'm wrong about that.

I was attempting to create extra heat reflection around the intake. The plan was to use that area somewhat as a heat shield. If you get me the information about the raised area I should be able to make a shallow notch there to clear the block and not have to remove the whole area. I am also thinking about adding sleeves to the bolt holes to prevent over torquing. I can if space is available use slightly oversized bolt holes.

 

 

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Edited April 11, 2017 by choover1101

Sleeves would probably be good since it seems this material is semi soft, as in, I think it may distort in time if it's over torqued. I'll also get you measurements asap

burning freon can kill

 

Reminds me of a couple months ago. My dad and I were working on my girlfriend's car and he didn't know the AC system was still charged because the compressor seized up and we were replacing it. He loosened the line and freon game gushing out in a giant cloud. My girlfriend and I stood back while the gasses came out of the system, but there he is standing within a couple feet of the freon cloud and proceeds to light a cigarette, to which we promptly told him that it's super flammable and he moved away from the area.

I think you have to use propane with R12 to burn 'freon' if you want to make nerve gas and die, but I don't remember for sure how, so I just treat all refrigerants as a 'never burn' item. And as you say, just being inside a non-toxic sudden ball of fire is still kinda a drag.

I think you have to use propane with R12 to burn 'freon' if you want to make nerve gas and die, but I don't remember for sure how, so I just treat all refrigerants as a 'never burn' item. And as you say, just being inside a non-toxic sudden ball of fire is still kinda a drag.

 

Things I learned on the Subaru forum today; How to make nerve gas... haha

Things I learned on the Subaru forum today; How to make nerve gas... haha

 

Bleach and ammonia make chlorine gas, which is also toxic

 

Sorry choover, don't mean to hijack your thread.

So this weekend i was pulling the heads off of my spare 2.5 legacy. With some information from Brighton96 i was able to get them off. And i found out why the motor died on the previous owner. Thankfully i mostly wanted the heads off of this block for the FrankenMotor build.

 

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They managed to do that to all four bores? Um.... Wow!

Previous owner drove it until it stopped running then abandoned it at Pepboys. She told them to haul it off, but since they know I like Subarus they called me and I offered her $200 for the car. I will end up scrapping what i don't want off of it and making my money back.

 

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I was asked to write about putting a 2013-16 Subaru BRZ Mishimoto radiator in a 1996 Legacy GT. Background: my GT blew its original radiator at 240k miles I have a spare parts store radiator off of the Outback comparing the two I did not truse the parts store radiator as the core is 1/2" thick and my stock core is 1 also, I live in Texas. So I was looking around for a matching size radiator.

 

Overview: Not worth it.

1. The lower radiator mounts are at 29.25 which is too wide for the stock lower mount holes at 25.5 and too narrow for the outer mount holes at 30.5. To solve this I drilled holes beside the stock outer mounts and did offset holes in the lower mount bushings.

2. Lower radiator hose location is approximately 3" too high. It points at my lower cam. To solve this issue i cut two spare lower boses and made a double 90° S curve. I attached these together with a piece of 1.25 galvanized pipe and mishimoto hose clamps.

3. No radiator cap. Solved by buying a Moroso inline radiator cap and a 16lb radiator cap and cutting the upper radiator hose to fit.

4. Peg style upper mounts. Unsolved. (Radiator is secure due to metal in hoses.)

5. Radiator has ac condenser mounnts tacked to front and rubs on condenser.

Solved by attaching tie down straps and backing up stretching the ac condenser mounts to clear mounts on radiator.

6. No trans cooler. Solution fancy twin AN-6 trans coolers i bought for the Corvette.

7. Drain is on the front of radiator. No solution.

8 radiator fans don't fit. Solution cut 1999 plastic radiator fan assembly to fit and rivet both halves together, then bolt to radiator.

 

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Do your trans cooler lines feed in from the top or bottom of the trans cooler radiator? If it feeds from the bottom then you may develop and air pocket that could block fluid flow.

The radiator has no trans cooler, the input is on the top of the right one and the exit is on the top of the left one as viewed from the picture.

 

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