how to raise the sound image from below to above the dash?

my mid range spk is at stock location, tweeter is on kick panel, approx 6" above the ground and very close to door deal where's 4~5"" away from the mid range spk. thanks

 

have no idea i tested around before secure it on the plastic panel. it wasn't that "below", but after, the imasge is very low. i'd tried reverse polarity of the right side mid-range spk's, all i saw was losing some midbass and didn't help the image ..

 

thanks,

mark

Subscribed for your findings...

 

 

 

albeit a little confused by the early morning post from OP

Time alignment.

 

Cheapest way: Minidsp

 

Requirements: Running an active front stage, a laptop, basic electrical and audio knowledge, Google

 

If you’re not running active, look into a KAC-X4R. You should be able to get one on ebay for ~$200 and it can do time alignment on its own.

You are two-way or three-way? Active or passive?

 

Try running both tweeters reverse polarity with respect to the mids and with each other. Make sure your gain matching is spot on if you are active and try using an L-pad if you're passive.

 

You may need to re-aim them to fix this. I always try the tweets in a lot of different positions with velcro, lumps or modeling clay or whatever it takes for a test of a couple of days.

 

Getting the sound stage higher when the tweets are mounted low is IME a matter of driver location, aiming, phasing and time alignment. What you are trying to do is make the tweets blend into the soundstage rather than draw your attention to them. EQ'ing will help, especially with very bright metal dome tweets, but only once you have those four factors sorted. The first symptom of a bad tune is that the drivers are instantly and easily locatable with your eyes closed.

my front speakers are component - tweeter (x-cross @3.2k Hz) and midbass (HP@ 75~80Hz)

 

thanks fahr_side: let me go try reverse tweeters polarity now.

thanks utc_pyro: i don't want to align them only for me, thanks

 

and will post some pics soon... hold on guys!

 

mark

here my tweeters attach on kick panel, you guys can see the tilt angle..

i don't want to align them only for me, thanks

 

You put your tweeters on the floor. You only really have two ways to fix that: Move them physically or electrically. One’s a heck of a lot simpler .

ok, here is what i'd just tried and found....

 

1, reverse polarity on both tweeters -> sound stage became wider, but too loose, vocal sound seemed more blur (cant tell where is exact the middle of the sound stage)

 

2, reverse polarity only on right side mid-range -> voical sound became more upper and more "in front of" me, but "the mouth" is too big(?), and lose too much mid-to-low range.

 

3, reverse polarity on both left and right mid-range -> vocal went to my left and the sound from right side is more pronounce (e.g. even you close your eyes, you can tell where is the tweeter!) .

 

4, with all correct polarity on all speakers -> all range of sound became more solid, but the image (singers) went back to underneath the steering colmun!

 

test CDs: Dianna Krall - where or when, Quiet Nights, este seu olhar and how can you mend a broken heart. Norah Jones - Dont know why, those sweet words. these few songs i listened the most for adj my home audio..

 

thanks,

mark

thanks utc_pyro, but i did so many search from this forum and SQ, their tweeters are mostly located nearby the floor, even more lower than mine (e.g. Q logic).

I would try reaiming the tweeters but it looks like you are committed to that position. Am I right in guessing you have no possibility to adjust time alignment for the driver's position and want a 'two-seat' car? Well, this never works out perfectly for anyone, but it's your ride.

 

Try tweets in reverse phase and then go through your EQ process with pink noise centered around the bands you can adjust until you get the best possible center image. If this doesn't do it you will have to change the aim of the tweeters.

 

I am running active in my WRX, tweets in a very similar place to yours but aimed at the shift knob. I run different xo points and slopes L/R but that is more to fix imaging problems than stage height. Stage height was good for me with good aiming and proper level matching. After EQ'ing to center the image and compensate for reflections the drivers pretty much disappear. Remember that most tuning issues in a car are due more to reflections than what is coming out of the drivers.

thanks fahr_side,

 

well, let me clarify my statment, i'm not trying to set up a "two-seats car". i just want to find a point where it's acceptable to me and psgr can also enjoy the music as well (at least the image doesn't shift all the way to his/her left) .

 

i don't have EQ, ... EQ does affect sound stage/image?? how come?? : (

 

what is "pink noise" ?

 

do i need to lower them to shift knob level? my left tweeter is aimed to psgr 's left shoulder, and right tweeter is aimed to my right shoulder.

 

thanks,

mark

http://i535.photobucket.com/albums/ee359/frkkevin/suede/IMG_0941.jpg

are they your primary tweeters?

are they your primary tweeters?

 

yes ..

 

in this photo you can see where i had them before.. it was good but still set a lower staging. once i moved the tweeters up it was night and day difference. i also run them a bit lower.. down to 2.5khz which also was a good improvement

 

http://i535.photobucket.com/albums/ee359/frkkevin/suede/IMG_0992.jpg

Note that reflections create spikes and dips in response which are different in every part of the cabin. This does two things. The first is to make some frequencies higher in level and some lower. Second, because reflections can be near or far-field, those levels do not vary equally left/right. This pulls the image to one side or the other at different frequencies. Ever notice how for example a singer's voice may shift from side to side with pitch?

Independant L/R EQ allows you to center the image in as many frequency bands as are adjustable and fix this problem. It's done most easily with pink noise, which is like white noise but in a limited frequency range.

 

2.5khz btw is very low for a non-chambered tweeter. Minimum xover point should double the Fs value. You probably need to be crossing around 3.5 or 4khz.

fs of my tweet is 900hz and it is encased in a metal housing..

 

as far as tuning goes the h701 gives plenty of control

yes ..

 

in this photo you can see where i had them before.. it was good but still set a lower staging. once i moved the tweeters up it was night and day difference.

 

how do you match the treble and mid?

 

i also run them a bit lower.. down to 2.5khz which also was a good improvement

 

mine is about 4~5inches apart, it's ok when xover at 2.9kHz/ -3dB (the lowest setting), but then i placed it at a-pillar like yours, the sound was like falling apart (test CDs: kenny G - songbird, the moment. at the beginning, the music seemed coming from the windshield, but not until his sexophone went to the lower notes) !

 

mark

Well, another reason I like to xover in the 4khz range is that it's outside of the human vocal range. 3khz is absolutely critical range for believability in the vocal range. Weird phase shifting from xover in this area is really hard to fix and much easier to avoid altogether simply by not having your xover point in that range. While there are still some vocal harmonics and breath sound up to 8khz it's much less obvious if they have some phase shift and it affects the overal stereo image much less. Well, it's a typical problem using 6.5" mids and typical car-fi tweeters... cross too low and the tweeter breaks up. Cross too high and the mid is 'beaming' like hell... okay if you are on-axis but hard to deal with otherwise.

okay if you are on-axis but hard to deal with otherwise.

 

well, i aimed it to the tip of shift knob now. so far, i've tried 4x4 ways. switch polarity from individual to both left and right tweeters, and from individual to both left and right mid-range, then tired both tweeters and mid. to summerize what i found is... the more upper the sound stage it goes, the sound goes more blur/falling apart/uneven. the lower the sound stage goes, the image becomes more solid! unless i placed my tweeters at a-pillar, otherwise both sound stage/image can barely raise up above the dash (with reverse polarity on both tweeters). but the problem is.. the mid can't match up with the treble.

 

mark

fs of my tweet is 900hz and it is encased in a metal housing..

 

as far as tuning goes the h701 gives plenty of control

 

 

900hz? what tweeters can go that low??

 

what is h701??

 

thanks,

mark

well, i aimed it to the tip of shift knob now. so far, i've tried 4x4 ways. switch polarity from individual to both left and right tweeters, and from individual to both left and right mid-range, then tired both tweeters and mid. to summerize what i found is... the more upper the sound stage it goes, the sound goes more blur/falling apart/uneven. the lower the sound stage goes, the image becomes more solid! unless i placed my tweeters at a-pillar, otherwise both sound stage/image can barely raise up above the dash (with reverse polarity on both tweeters). but the problem is.. the mid can't match up with the treble.

 

mark

Well, every car is different. You need to experiment and see what position works best for you. Also, if you can get the stage where you want but find it incoherent, you find may find that is the best aim spot but it needs EQ'ing to get the imaging correct. Remember that staging and imaging are two different things, though certain tuning techniques will help both.

 

900hz? what tweeters can go that low??

 

what is h701??

 

An H701 is short for PXA-H701, an external processor used in conjunction with Alpine CDA series decks. Among other tricks, it has powerful EQ and time alignment functions. Try Googling that for more info. All these functions and others are also available built into other high-end decks, so it's not strictly necessary to use an external processor. I run a Pioneer DEH-P800PRS which has the same functions built in.

He did not say his tweets will play down to 900hz. Fs is the resonant frequency of the driver. Typically, a tweeter can play down to about double it's Fs before distortion gets really ugly and damage becomes possible. In reality not all tweeters are created equal. Many cheaper tweeters, especially car-fi stuff, will not play even double Fs and need to be crossed higher than that. Home audio stuff tends to do what it says on the box, but they can be bulky for use in a car. As always it's a compromise. Some of the nice chambered home audio tweets can be crossed down to 2khz, avoiding the critical vocal range, and sound very good when mounted close to the mids.

 

TBH, I didn't have the best results with tweets in kicks while I was passive. I just didn't have the tuning power to make it work convincingly and the best results were with the tweeters on the A pillars. Of course, different car, different drivers, different listener...

 

One trick, one that I don't particularly like but many swear by, is secondary tweeters in the A pillars to supplement the primary tweets in the kicks. Personally I feel it opens the door to whole host of phasing and comb-filtering issues, not to mention all the reflections off the glass. But, it will definitely raise your stage. You need to be able both to pad them down (L-pad, adjust level without changing impedance) and high-pass them quite high, like 12khz or that neighborhood. I think textile domes are preferred because you really don't want sibilance from tweeters that are installed right in your face.

have you guys seen those old front project tv with r/b/g light mount at the front? ok, i thought sound stage and image is something like fine tunning those 3 lights by aimming and focusing (moving around the speakers), so the clarity (image) and size (soundstage) will fit the screen. And i thought adj the color temp (Eq) is a function that makes image (sound) on screen closer to reality.

 

But now, i was told Eq is to adj the image and sound stage? just like you are telling me adjusting color-temp can affect the image and clarity on the tv??

 

thanks,

mark

have you guys seen those old front project tv with r/b/g light mount at the front? ok, i thought sound stage and image is something like fine tunning those 3 lights by aimming and focusing (moving around the speakers), so the clarity (image) and size (soundstage) will fit the screen. And i thought adj the color temp (Eq) is a function that makes image (sound) on screen closer to reality.

 

But now, i was told Eq is to adj the image and sound stage? just like you are telling me adjusting color-temp can affect the image and clarity on the tv??

 

thanks,

mark

Staging describes the area from the sound appears to come. What's generally seen as desirable is at the dash height, and wide enough to escape the cabin. Think of an orchestra on stage. There should be no sounds coming from the conductor's pit and the extreme left and right of the stage should be quite a bit further apart than your A pillars.

 

Imaging generally refers to how accurately the individual sounds seem to be located on the stage. For example, if you are listening to a typical live recording the vocalist should seem to be fixed right above the center of the dash and not wander around or appear from the drivers. Each instrument should be in it's correct place on the stage and stay there. There are a lot of test CDs out there with which you can tune. I like the Chesky Ultimate Demo Disk for this though any really well recorded live material is good for this, another favorite is the Alice in Chains Unplugged disk.

Once you see where the problems are you need to tune in a systematic way. I tend to go with the following order, setting each one the best as it can be before moving onto the next, checking with the demo disk each step of the way:

 

Driver aiming

Level matching and gain setting

Driver electrical phase

Xover points and slopes

Time alignment

EQ

 

To do most of this work you will need to take some notes so you don't lose the rabbit and a tuning disk with reference tones musical content. I like Alan Parson's Sound Check for this.

Driver aiming

Level matching and gain setting

Driver electrical phase

Xover points and slopes

Time alignment

EQ

 

how do you guys aim your tweeters? my tweeter is on kicks now, the problem is my left tweeter is way too off-axis compare with the right one is too on-axis!

 

i'm thinking to point the left one to driver seat pillow and right one point to psgr seat's pillow, how's that?

 

i still hope i don't need to individually eq left/right channel to make psgr side sounds too bad.

 

thanks,

mark

I tried a very similar setup as your (Tweet in the kick panel) . messed around with quite a few things . Obviously aim is extremely important. I found that cross firing them at opposite headrests worked well (drivers side slightly more off axis). Moving up the High pass filter to the overall front helped raise the image . I found 100 hz HP front raised the image but at the expense of a little midbass. I found EQ and time alignment worked as well but with the stock midbass location you can never equal a true kickpanel setup. In the end i went back to stock tweeter location as I found it works best as a compromise . EAn611 helped me confirm this. I had a very similar setup as FRKkevin in my WRX (custom Tweets in the A pillars) . It definitely raised the image but created some reflection issues. Then again the WRX has way worse path length differences and way more narrow then the LGT