Jump to content
LegacyGT.com

05+ Driving on thin ice/snow


Recommended Posts

I have an 05 Outback Sedan 3.0 and it seems that the rear end is always breaking lose (very unsecure feeling) when driving on thin black ice or snow conditions at highway speed (above 50 MPH). This topic is pretty hot on the Outback Fourm, I was wondering if 05 and newer Legacy owners have the same issue/feeling. I have upgraded to winter tires (Dunlop M3's) and installed a upgraded rear swaybar (seems to have helped). Driving the same roads other cars and trucks pass me like I'm a little old lady when these conditions are in-place.

 

Thanks In Advance

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 125
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

On thin black ice any one will potentially have a problem but for general snow and ice conditions on the highway, I haven't had that feeling or issue with my wagon. The car seems very solid at speed in those conditions. I do have Cusco F&R sways (23, 21mm), AVO rear brackets and Cusco front and rear under bracing suspension bits which did transform the handling of the car. I am also running Continental Contiextremes which are night and day difference in traction in those conditions over the OEM RE92 rubber.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is caused by too much foot on the gas! The sway bar likely hurt rather than help the tail happy effect. With a heavier rear bar mine is more tail happy when foot is one the gas too hard in turn!
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have an 05 Outback Sedan 3.0 and it seems that the rear end is always breaking lose (very unsecure feeling) when driving on thin black ice or snow conditions at highway speed (above 50 MPH). This topic is pretty hot on the Outback Fourm, I was wondering if 05 and newer Legacy owners have the same issue/feeling. I have upgraded to winter tires (Dunlop M3's) and installed a upgraded rear swaybar (seems to have helped). Driving the same roads other cars and trucks pass me like I'm a little old lady when these conditions are in-place.

 

Thanks In Advance

 

I would actually recommend you to bring the car into a shop to check that the wheel alignment of the rear end is OK. It may need some adjustment since a slight incorrectness here may trigger a prematurely loss of grip.

 

I just checked a test of tires and a tire similar to the M3, the "Dunlop SP Winter Sport 3D" (probably an European variation of the M3) got really bad figures on Snow and Ice. the "Continental ContiWinter Contact TS810" with HWT4 marking got the best score. The test reveals that the Dunlop works fine in slush and wet conditions, but snow and ice - NOT!:eek: The test was done by the magazine "Teknikens Värld" (http://www.teknikensvarld.se) and was presented in October 2007.

 

 

I hope that this may explain something. Maybe check the magazine rack for winter tire tests before purchasing - and of course - only you know which kind of conditions you may expect. Don't forget to check the legal requirements too.

453747.png
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for the replys. Tirerack.com has them (M3) highly rated so like always it depends who you ask. What's nice about Tirerack's data is that it's ratings system is based on real life owners of the product.

 

I have had the car aligned and there wasn't anything major that was off (minor adustments). Subaru must know something is wrong since they just issued a technical update on changes to the spec for the rear alignment and to make sure rear tires are at 30psi with no load <200 LBS. and 37.5 when greated then 200 LBS.

 

If you go to http://www.subaruoutback.org/ there's a very active thread on this topic. Do a search for "05 Outback and Newer DANGEROUS ON THIN ICE". I didn't start the thread but have experernced the issue.

 

I own a 98 Legacy also and driving the same road, same conditions, and it's a night and day difference. The 98 is safe and secure. The 05 is a handful. I drive around 40K a year for busines in all types of conditions (company car and not a Subaru). So I'm aware how to drive in these conditions (and don't expect to drive on thin snow/ice conditions the same as dry pavement) but when other car/trucks are passing you left and right, and to keep the car safe you need to stay way below the speed the other traffic is traveling, there's an issue (and I beleive its with the car).

 

The bases of me asking this here was to determine if there's a difference with the 05 and newer Legacy's compared to the Outbacks.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, this car is tail happy. The lack of stability control show. I spent the last 8 days driving a Mitsu Endeavour (SUV; AWD) with stability control and its effect is noticeable. And yes, I drove it ONLY on snow covered grounds, around Lake Placid NY, Montreal & Mont Tremblant QC - where winters are winters and snow fall is measured in meters.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Funny this topic came up as I was wondering the same thing. My wife and I went up to northern Wisconsin last weekend and we were in the middle of a snow storm. The entire way, it felt like the rear of our Outback was 'wagging' back and forth. It almost felt like sidewall flex on some very cheap tires. It seemed to be speed dependent. As soon as I got above 45mph it would start to wag. It didn't matter whether I had my foot on the gas or totally off of it.

 

It really is a very insecure feeling. I have never had that in my LGT.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have an 05 Outback Sedan 3.0 and it seems that the rear end is always breaking lose (very unsecure feeling) when driving on thin black ice or snow conditions at highway speed (above 50 MPH). This topic is pretty hot on the Outback Fourm, //
21 people on subaruoutback.org think there's a problem - and that's including Gen II and Gen III.

 

The other 250,000 thousand US L/OB drivers don't. There's no such thing as a car without studded treads that doesn't slide like a MF on black ice. If you scare yourself and back off the throttle, the rear end will come around.

 

I think 95% of this "issue" is people with their first AWD car who think they are immune to the laws of physics and vehicle dynamics 101.

Who Dares Wins

スバル

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 people on subaruoutback.org think there's a problem - and that's including Gen II and Gen III.

 

The other 250,000 thousand US L/OB drivers don't. There's no such thing as a car without studded treads that doesn't slide like a MF on black ice. If you scare yourself and back off the throttle, the rear end will come around.

 

I think 95% of this "issue" is people with their first AWD car who think they are immune to the laws of physics and vehicle dynamics 101.

 

I think that Subaru is behind times by not offering extremely helpful technology such as stability control in their cars. They make it available on select upscale models (duh the SPEC and certain GTs with automatics). I can appreciate the simplicity and efficiency of their permanent AWD but maybe it is time to move from viscous LSDs to Torsen and upgrade the SC availability thruout their entire "performance" car range (read turbo) and 6-bangers). I was skeptical of how much SC helps - until I spent 8 days driving a car that has it, on ice and snow in NE part of this continent. SC > AWD when it comes to winter driving.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

.... I have upgraded to winter tires (Dunlop M3's) and installed a upgraded rear swaybar (seems to have helped).....

 

Thanks In Advance

 

UPGRADED REAR SWAY BAR???? IN WINTER CONDITIONS????:eek::eek::eek:

 

What internet rxpert suggested an aftermarket rear sway bar? If that sway bar is STIFFER, you have INCREASED OVERSTEER, the very symptom you're complaining about. I've driven several stock Outbacks in winter conditions and NONE exhibited any peculiar handling characteristics compared to a stock Legacy.

 

You need a SOFTER sway bar (or remove it) to decrease oversteer.

 

That said, it sounds like you do not have much exeperience in winter conditions.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Even tho we have awd, I have never been thrilled with the loose feeling that the rear end has in slick winter conditions.

 

Of course prudence in speed is mandated, but I go back to yesteryear when all cars were rwd.

 

I simply put a bag of tube sand (@ 70 lbs) in the trunk over the rear axles.

 

Does a lot better in those icy conditions IMO. Keeps the rear end down and no, I don't look I'm in a drag launch.

 

 

O.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

UPGRADED REAR SWAY BAR???? IN WINTER CONDITIONS????:eek::eek::eek:

 

What internet rxpert suggested an aftermarket rear sway bar? If that sway bar is STIFFER, you have INCREASED OVERSTEER, the very symptom you're complaining about. I've driven several stock Outbacks in winter conditions and NONE exhibited any peculiar handling characteristics compared to a stock Legacy.

 

You need a SOFTER sway bar (or remove it) to decrease oversteer.

 

That said, it sounds like you do not have much exeperience in winter conditions.

 

Regarding the STIFFER Swaybar, It wasn't put in to correct this condition, it was put in the elminate the tail wagging with the stock Swaybar that's installed in the cars that are built in the USA (20mm is the standard everywhere elso I'm told). This condition is pre-oversteer, it's dynamic rear suspension based in my view/experence. I installed it last spring so this is the first winter driving it with it installed. All I can tell you is that the condition is greatly reduced (but it always hard to compare winter driving conditions from one day to the other).

 

This is my third AWD car I have owned (88 Pontiac STE AWD - 98 Legacy (which doesn't have the issue) and the 05 OB Sedan). I live in Michigan and travel 40 to 50K a year for my work (Company supplies front wheel drive/non Subaru). I was an Instructer for 19 months for USMC at the Military Defensive Drive School in Quantico Virginia, so I'm pretty confident in my winter driving skills. I also owned a 76 Jeep CJ5 back when I was in the Marines in the 70's, which was the worst winter vehicle I ever owned (monster mud tires and a short wheel-base and snow don't make it).

 

The concerning aspect is this vehicle can't be driven at a speed that the other traffic is traveling at when these conditions are in-place. I've made the car better (the Dunlop M3's have helped also) but I would say it no where as good in these conditions as my 98 Legacy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Errr stiffer sways on the rear (unless matched at the front) will always cure the understeer and promote oversteer. There are certain US laws that require a car to understeer at the limit and folks upgrading the rear sways is not gonna help their winter driving confidence in this car; everything else being equal.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have an 05 Legacy GT wagon and have never experienced what you are describing. I can't tell any difference from how my 03 Legacy wagon drove or my 90 Legacy. Are Outback suspensions that different?
Link to comment
Share on other sites

05 lgt sedan and have not experienced this problem even with oem re92s. i have gone 60+ in snow for fun, however i normally drive slower as going the speed limit in the snow seems too fast if anything happens.

 

had dunlop m3s on a fwd acura and it was awesome in bad weather and i now have a new set of dunlop 3ds on the lgt, but havent been able to put them to use.

 

i can def say that the rear end will come right around if too much brakes or thottle is used in the snow, but i kind of expected this.

 

all my cars no matter what drivetrain or tire got nutty in ice conditions. kind of like running re50s in the snow :) i will def not jump the gun this year with the summer shoes.

MAYHEM

#122/22 STS NNJR SCCA

AUTOX4U.COM

 

XENON RETRO GUIDE

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I feel the same, but I believe that it is my fault for having the rear slide.

Going 70+ on snow, with ice underneath, is not a good feeling when gassing it, or braking. When braking moderately or hard, on the ice/snow, the rear, for me at least, tends to want to slide forward, and when pressing the gas moderately to hard, the rear wants to lead instead of the front.

All this is stock suspension with RE-92's.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I know! I was following a Jeep Commander that was going that fast, it was 2am, my friend was falling asleep, I was tired from driving from 8am straight, and just wanted to GET HOME! It was fun though. I'd yell OH MY GOD! and slide the car around when my friend fell asleep. And I'd scare him by slamming on the brakes and making the car go sideways.

 

Honestly, If that jeep wasn't there, I would have been going slower. I thought, if the jeep lost it, I'd slow down.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are certain US laws that require a car to understeer at the limit and folks upgrading the rear sways is not gonna help their winter driving confidence in this car; everything else being equal.

 

Can you point me to some more information about that law?

 

Obligatory on-topic material: If there's a car setup change that can help this problem I'd like to know about it, but 50mph is pretty fast for snowy/icy roads. If people are passing you under these circumstances, it might just be that they're too dumb to slow down. :) Much as I enjoy passing the people on my way up to go snowboarding, I also take a certain amount of pride in not being the fastest driver on the road when I can't see the pavement. Those people passing me, they're my canaries.

 

A couple people mentioned VDC, but IMO that stuff exists to help out in exceptional circumstances like accident avoidance. I would not want to rely on electronics to keep the car moving in a straight line - if that's required, it's time to slow down.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now



×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Terms of Use