Hit the 740cc ceiling on E85

I figured that I would top out the DW740's but I didn't expect to hit 128% duty cycle at 21 pounds of boost. Harvey was able to stabilize AFR and he lowered my rev limit for the time being. He was able to get 333awhp out of it but I hate the idea that I'm leaving power on the table. 850's would help but I can't help but wonder if they will be enough. What do you guys think? I really don't want to go to top feed if I can help it.

Just curious of your turbo and supporting mods?

 

I saw around 86-89% duty cycle on my old perrin modded injectors that were flow tested at about 800cc give or take. I have played with a few different 2.5l subies at altitude with close to the same results running high boost on e85 so enough headroom to make me feel safe. Some say you can wring out over 100% duty cycle on subie injectors with no issue because of how the comp calculates idc and they are really not going static until 105-107% but I never like seeing over 90% personally on any Pwm device for safety. Got a graph? Im sure the car is a blast but always sucks knowing you have to rebuy parts just to maximize your setup.

 

The id1000s are amazing but plug and play side feeds have worked for many and dw does offer an 1100 although I have no experience tuning them quite yet. I have been curious of the idle quality..lol

 

Dave

Just curious of your turbo and supporting mods?

 

I saw around 86-89% duty cycle on my old perrin modded injectors that were flow tested at about 800cc give or take. I have played with a few different 2.5l subies at altitude with close to the same results running high boost on e85 so enough headroom to make me feel safe. Some say you can wring out over 100% duty cycle on subie injectors with no issue because of how the comp calculates idc and they are really not going static until 105-107% but I never like seeing over 90% personally on and Pwm device for safety. Got a graph? Im sure the car is a blast but always sucks knowing you have to rebuy parts just to maximize your setup.

 

The id1000s are amazing but plug and play side feeds have worked for many and dw does offer an 1100 although I have no experience tuning them quite yet. I have been curious of the idle quality..lol

 

Dave

 

As with many, it is a long list but here is a summary:

 

Rallispec built short block - EJ257, nitrided crank, Cosworth pistons, Manley con rods, ACL bearings

Rebuilt heads with bowl porting - OEM cams

BNR68 with upgraded actuator

Turbo back exhaust - catted

Catless up-pipe

Grimmspeed PnP TGV deletes

Grimmspeed 3 port solenoid

Torque Solutions TMIC

DW740 and Walbro 255

 

With the current tune, it is peaking at 21 psi but with a lot left on the table. Harvey was able to tune it for a consistent AFR but it is tapering more at red line and he lowered the rev limiter to keep it from running lean on the big end. Even then, it is s running at 100% IDC. I may have to risk it with the DW 1100 side feeds to give it enough fuel for E85.

My buddy maxed his 850's on e-85 at 21 pounds as well at about 96% duty cycle he is going to 1000's next.

I hit in the low to mid 90% at 20 psi at 7000 rpm with 830cc modded stock side feeds.

OP you've got a really sweet setup and you picked the best tuner. No shortcuts anywhere... LOVE what you've done! Post up a plot.. would like to compare to mine (same dyno, same fuel, same turbo, but stocker motor with less mods). I hit 343whp/386tq on the dyno there and my IDC's have never surpassed 85%. I've run PE850's for almost 4 years now, no issues, plenty of headroom. You should be able to find them new for less than $500 or used for $300 or so.

 

You could go the really expensive luxurious ID1000 route, but that runs over $1k for injectors, conversion, and labor. I was quoted $470 for labor and for misc plumbing pieces for a ID1000 install, FYI. Also keep in mind that ID1000's flow less than advertised (900-950, I forget) and PE850's flow more than advertised due to being rated at a lower fuel pressure (flow 880-920), so not much difference in capacity.

This prompted me to go do some logging, finally. I hit higher IDC's than I've ever seen before, but it is just due to the cold temps as I also hit higher MAFv than I've ever seen before.

 

At dyno day on August 10th, shop temp was 85F and Harvey does not blow air on TMIC's like he does for FMIC's. My peak MAFv was 4.50v and did 343whp. My peak IDC's that day were 84.7%. Fast forward 14 months to this morning... 31F. Road, not dyno. Peak MAFv was 4.62v and peak IDC's were 93.3%. Still plenty of headroom for both the Cobb SF intake and PE850's even at very cool temps.

 

I plotted my PE850 IDC's this a.m...

 

http://beeez.com/lgt/PE850%20IDCs.jpg

That is great info guys. And thank you for the feedback Legend. That means alot coming from you. I will scan the dyno plot and post it up here. It just isn't going to be very useful. The car runs really strong but there is much more available.

 

On the topic of MAFv, it hit somewhere between 4.77 - 4.8 volts at 6100 rpm with 128% IDC. At that point, it started to lean out. In the current tune, it hits 4.66 volts at 6100 rpm with 108% IDC (just over 320 g/s). He was never able to rev it up to 6750 without leaning it out at these boost levels. I'm using a stock MAF diameter KSTech CAI.

 

It is hitting 21 psi by 3500 rpm and tapers to 18 psi at 6100 rpm. I'll post up a log and plot for those who are interested. All things are not equal but this seems to suggest that I will need a minimum of 1000cc to flow enough for 22 psi with a taper to 19 or 20 psi. I really think there is another 30 whp waiting in the wings here.

See attached for the log file. I'm pretty sure this is the log file from the dyno plot above. If not, it is pretty close.

 

Would love to hear what you guys think for injector options. This seems to be a downward spiral but I just have to know where the story ends.

 

I'm leaning to PE850's but the DW1100's may give me the headroom I need. I'd even consider the JEC's options if I thought they would run well.

^^ Don't think that is a dyno run since IAM is still coming up in beginning of log and doesn't hit 1.0 until 3900rpms. If that were plotted there would be a jagged line on the dyno plot as the extra couple degrees of timing suddenly come on.

If anyone has any other experience with side feed 850+ injectors, I would love to hear about it.

If anyone has any other experience with side feed 850+ injectors, I would love to hear about it.

 

That's what I have. I have modded stock 830cc side feed injectors.

PE850's for sale locally: http://www.awdpirates.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=56766&sid=a120edf01b976f889ff61dd6dc3eb6c3

 

I'd be okay with buying used injectors, but I'd want them cleaned/tested and guarantee from seller that they test out alright.

I have been running sidefeed PE850's for a year and a half. They were new, but had been sitting in a garage for a year, and I have not had any issues with them. We'll see what IDC's I'll have with the 68hta, as Eric is tuning it tomorrow.

OP if/when you decide to sell your inj, let us locals know I'm interested in 740/850's to go with my future V52

OP if/when you decide to sell your inj, let us locals know I'm interested in 740/850's to go with my future V52

 

Will do. I'm looking into some PE850's as we speak. Thanks to everyone for their input.

Go topfeed, you won't regret it

Go topfeed, you won't regret it

 

I'm starting to lean that way after doing some more research.

 

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check out five O motorsport out of California for side feed injectors. www.fiveomotorsports.com

 

Just over $300 for built 850 side feeds, not modded stockers. They have a 1200 side feed if I remember quickly. Think I paid $339 shipped and no core charge.

 

I'm running their 850 side feeds on e85 right now at 70%-80% duty cycle. (knock sensor needs to be isolated as it is picking up my noisy forged pistons and pulling timing). Next time TmIC comes off the knock sensor will be relocated.

 

Recommendation for five O came from motor builder who uses their injectors for his massive off road race motor builds for subie sand rails over 800hp.

 

Good luck!

check out five O motorsport out of California for side feed injectors. www.fiveomotorsports.com

 

Just over $300 for built 850 side feeds, not modded stockers. They have a 1200 side feed if I remember quickly. Think I paid $339 shipped and no core charge.

 

I'm running their 850 side feeds on e85 right now at 70%-80% duty cycle. (knock sensor needs to be isolated as it is picking up my noisy forged pistons and pulling timing). Next time TmIC comes off the knock sensor will be relocated.

 

Recommendation for five O came from motor builder who uses their injectors for his massive off road race motor builds for subie sand rails over 800hp.

 

Good luck!

 

No kidding. I was looking at them but I haven't been able to find much on tunability, reliability, etc... So would you say they have been worthwhile?

Yep!