New Subaru variant of Subyota Coupe will not get AWD

Clink link below

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/03/13/report-subaru-version-of-ft86-toyobaru-will-not-get-all-wheel/

If the mechanicals and the size are the same, what will it matter if it isn't a direct re-badge?

RWD, with no AWD option...

Tiny, as in the size of a Miata, smaller and shorter height than a MINI, or an Audi TT.

How many of those do they think they'll sell, that they need TWO BRANDS of it...

Naw... Subaru doesn't need to be any different... what good would that be? [/sarcasm]

After Subaru mucked with the Legacy's game for '10, I was holding out one last hope for a moderate/modest AWD coupe, along-side the Impreza line, but better looking inside and out, with sleek coupe lines, a fastback hatch. Somewhere between SVX's sleekness, and 2.5RS's affordability.

This isn't going to be that. This isn't going to be a Subaru coupe for me... and an AWD Subaru Coupe was going to be the one niche corner of the wide car market that was going to really appeal to me, and what I want and need from a car. Which is what made me a fan of Subaru, like other like-minded people as well. There are supposed to be all sorts of different cars for all sorts of different people... and Subaru had it's own corner of that market. I and others are attracted to that corner of the market for a reason. Now Subaru is giving up their corner a bit here, and a bit there.

RWD is fun, but I need 4-season reliable capability, to be a daily driver around here. Otherwise I would probably already have a RWD coupe, instead of a 19 year old SVX.

Lightweight is great, for a sports car and a runabout. I need something that I don't need to wedge myself into, like my/my wife's Miata. That isn't relaxing nor inviting after a long day of work, or on a weekend trip. I already have a Miata for sunday afternoon runabout jaunts.

If I didn't have a Miata, maybe I'd consider it... but it would have to be VERY special to separate people from roughly 20 grand for a runabout sports car, rather than something more versatile and a slight bit more practical for a sport coupe. Something closer to a GT coupe, such as I am looking for.

I certanly hope they make AWD an option on this, but I think this could be a credible report for two reasons:

1) a small, light, non-turbo, 2wd coupe will certainly help Subaru meet the stricter CAFE requirments for the coming years

2) the standard Subaru AWD system may not fit well in this car; hence the need for an expensive redesign. If you check out the concept FT-86, you'll note that it's got no front overhang whatsoever. So the engine must be positioned a fair bit further rearward of the front wheels than on any current Subie model.

This is fine by me. Adding AWD would ruin the vehicle, adding weight, complexity, and cost, and most likely throwing off the balance. Why would you want to ruin the vehicle just because you think it doesn't fit in with the rest of the Subaru stable?

You guys need to get over thinking of it as needing AWD just because it's a Subaru, and think of it as a better Miata. If the scandal rags hadn't spread the lies about it possibly being AWD, you wouldn't have been disappointed, because the only news from Subaru was that it was going to RWD, and now you're acting all bent out of shape because it's living up to Subaru's promises of RWD.

No wonder Subaru keeps tight-lipped about everything!

This is fine by me. Adding AWD would ruin the vehicle, adding weight, complexity, and cost, and most likely throwing off the balance. Why would you want to ruin the vehicle just because you think it doesn't fit in with the rest of the Subaru stable?

Some of us look at it the other way around. Why does Subaru need to do something just because Toyota is doing it?

Adding weight, complexity and cost? You could say that about ANY of the Subarus with AWD... yet Subaru makes its nickels on AWD cars.

And last I checked, those vehicles, at least from a technical, and engineering aspect, aren't ruined, even if aesthetics and options may or may not be some folks, or even my cup of tea.

You guys need to get over thinking of it as needing AWD just because it's a Subaru, and think of it as a better Miata. If the scandal rags hadn't spread the lies about it possibly being AWD, you wouldn't have been disappointed, because the only news from Subaru was that it was going to RWD, and now you're acting all bent out of shape because it's living up to Subaru's promises of RWD.

 

No wonder Subaru keeps tight-lipped about everything!

A BETTER MIATA??????

BULLCRAP. I own a miata. If this thing doesn't have SLA suspension front and rear, it is not a better Miata. PERIOD. If it isn't going to have the best suspension geometry for proper handling in a car that small, it isn't going to beat Miata's dynamics, even with the help of a fixed roof.

And, as I said... Subaru is Subaru. Mazda is Mazda. Subaru doesn't need to be Mazda, and it doesn't have a history of building light-weight sports cars, and probably won't know how to sell them if they do.

I didn't shop Subaru to find a Miata before. Mazda didn't sell me on an AWD Sport Sedan, because the haldex-based Mazdaspeed 6 didn't eclipse the Legacy GT's symmetrical AWD, and better power potential.

Other than Mazda not flopping in the CX7 and CX9, and Tribeca did get a bad first impression... otherwise, Mazda doesn't compete with Subaru on AWD year-round cars.

With this kind of logic in play, I would say that Subaru is shooting at the wrong target.

IF they want to build a Miata-coupe, they should ask themselves WHY do they want a Miata-like coupe. Is that a huge demographic that is likely to shop SUBARU for that? Is that a niche enthusiast product that will require some finesse and knowledge of the market to properly sell and support? ARE THEY GOING TO BE ABLE TO COMPETE WITH TOYOTA DEALERS WHO WILL BE SELLING THE SAME CAR TO THE SAME NARROW MARKET SEGMENT?

And why, with Subaru's market placement... would they want to sell a RWD micro-coupe, when they currently have a gigantic hole in their own niche, by not having a more practical AWD Sport Coupe or GT, more toward the size of a GR Impreza's length and width.

Let Toyota or Scion sell RWD micro-coupe. They don't have the AWD reputation, and aren't losing out on the potential of building a good AWD coupe, as Subaru is, and should be doing.

I can't believe that I am constantly lambasted around here when I call for cars that can appeal to BOTH enthusiasts, and mainstream buyers...

and then people think that a very, very narrow focus product like this, that doesn't match Subaru's image AT ALL, will bring enthusiasts out of the woodwork, when a micro-coupe like this has almost no mainstream appeal OTHER than a few enthusiasts.

I have always thought that a mainstream-capable product, like Legacy or Impreza, if it is good enough to appeal to an enthusiast, it will be more than good enough to appeal to a mainstream buyer.

Maybe this little RWD coupe will appeal to some enthusiasts. If I didn't already have a miata, it might appeal to me... as a third weekend car, but not as a daily driver... and it is hard for folks to afford a NEW third-line car, behind two dailies, or a daily and a hauler. But a car this small is not going to bring a bunch of people out to buy it, since it is not really balanced for practicality at all. Subarus are ALL balanced for practicality. Some are balanced between practicality and sporty car enthusiasm, others are balanced with economy, and some are balanced with an outdoorsy soft-road capability. None of the Subarus are single-focus narrow-market cars, aside from maybe the R1 and R2 city cars in Japan. This is not Japan.

Without that balance, Subaru is not even going after Subaru AWD enthusiasts, but trying to go after Mazda's marketing focus.

I wish Subaru luck, but I can't help but be skeptical. And I know that I don't need another tiny RWD car. I wanted a nicely modest, balanced AWD coupe, good for daily driving, and with some long distance legs, as well. That is something SUBARU could sell, that other companies like Mazda, and Toyota don't really do, and aren't likely to do.

TO SUM UP:

WHY DOES SUBARU FEEL THE NEED TO IMPINGE ON MAZDA'S NICHE, WHEN THEY CAN'T SEEM TO FILL THEIR OWN NICHE, FIRST?

Its not surprising that Subaru will not make a AWD version. It makes perfect sense.

If Toyota is going to have a RWD version that means that the car will have an engine over front axel or even whole front axis in front of an engine. Subaru AWD system requires the engine to be fully in front of front axle.

In order to make the platform for the car so it could be compatible with Subaru SAWD would ruin the front-rear balance of a RWD car and would make it drive worst that all its rivals - and that has no sens.

So at this point Subaru has 2 options:

- Create new AWD system, new transmission, new drivetrain parts for front axle, using asymetrical front drive shaft and that would be AWD but not SAWD. That car would be slower that Toyota version, would drive worse on track, would be not as good balanced and so on...

- Or make a descent RWD car.

In my opinion the choice for Subaru is easy.

Of course, nothing's official until these cars are formally introduced, but yanking AWD from the Subaru effectively leaves us with a Japanese version of GM's old Camaro/Firebird scenario, assuming both cars really do come to market. Of course, nothing's official until these cars are formally introduced, but yanking AWD from the Subaru effectively leaves us with a Japanese version of GM's old Camaro/Firebird scenario, assuming both cars really do come to market. Frankly, it's hard to see why Subaru would even bother going with this sans all-wheel drive coupe, though the Herculean PR spin they'd have to put on it would likely be hugely entertaining ("This is what we wanted all along..."). .

fta -- for truth.

no awd, then subaru shouldn't even bother

The way I see it, it happened sorta like this:

Toyota: Say, we need a car to inspire folks like we used to with the AE-86. Too bad we don't have any competence in that kind of car any more.

Oh, hold it, we got this share of Fuji Heavy. Don't they own that little upstart Subaru that makes inspiring cars? We need to get a piece of that.

Toyota to Subaru: Hey, make us a small coupe!

Subaru: Hmm, okay! We made the 9-2X for SAAB. We were making the Tribeca into a SAAB variant until GM bailed. We had ideas for other SAAB models too. We can put that expertise to good use making stuff for Toyota!

Subaru: Alright, so we're making this small coupe for Toyota. How can we take advantage of it ourselves?

Let's see,... we're getting slaughtered by the CAFE requirements, we have no entry-level car, we have no coupe,...

Hey, this Toyo coupe can help us with all of these!!!

Let's see, the Miata is successful, the S2000 moderately so, so let's throw in a little of their character, keep the weight low and central, keep the costs down, and we'll have a winner!

You see, they're not so much competing with anybody, they're just trying to stay alive by meeting CAFE mpg numbers, but also making sure it's marketable.

Subaru: Alright, so we're making this small coupe for Toyota. How can we take advantage of it ourselves?

Let's see,... we're getting slaughtered by the CAFE requirements, we have no entry-level car, we have no coupe,...

 

Hey, this Toyo coupe can help us with all of these!!!

Let's see, the Miata is successful, the S2000 moderately so, so let's throw in a little of their character, keep the weight low and central, keep the costs down, and we'll have a winner!

 

 

You see, they're not so much competing with anybody, they're just trying to stay alive by meeting CAFE mpg numbers, but also making sure it's marketable.

The government doesn't buy these kind of cars, so meeting CAFE might save them some fines... but that doesn't mean this thing will sell.

They do have an entry level car. It is called Impreza 2.5i.

Forester 2.5i, and Legacy 2.5i might apply a bit, as well.

Entry-level means low price, it doesn't mean too small for someone over 5'11 to fit into.

They don't have a coupe. If this is going to be their coupe, then they will probably have an excuse not to build another, more normal-sized one with proper equipment, like AWD, and an engine choice.

And when it doesn't sell all that well, they'll have built in reasoning as to why nobody wants a coupe... just like nobody wants a Legacy Wagon, and nobody wanted a Subaru Baja, and nobody wants a Tribeca.

It is easy to say that nobody wants something when it doesn't sell, rather than asking the question "how can we make these vehicle formats the best in their classes?" and actually making those formats viable.

Take a look at the Autoblog comments, and the poll results. The link is in the first post. A lot of the respondents are saying that this isn't what they are looking for. It is another example of government regulation swaying the conditions of supply, and not matching with what might be in demand. Another reason that the government should be out of the game, or at the very most, be incentivizing efficiency, not regulating it.

When people hear "Subaru Coupe" something comes to mind. A 160-hp eco-engined, smaller than a Mini or Audi TT, 2wd runabout isn't what everyone thinks. There are some who will like it. There are some who have been asking Mazda for it for a long time, and maybe some of those folks will buy this Subaru... but maybe they'll buy the Toyota instead. Maybe they'll find it too small, and buy a Genesis or something, instead.

But those of us who thought of "Subaru Coupe", and thought of the GL10, XT, SVX, and 2.5RS, rolled into a new boxer AWD coupe that can handle anything at any time... are still without a product to buy.

This isn't going to be a happy little convertible, like Miata and S2K are or were. There will be a few people who like the roof for the structural rigidity, but there will also be some who are looking for a car with a roof to have a bit more every-day, and year-round practical capability. People tend to forgive a bit more lack of practical use, when the top folds down.

I have a feeling, and it is nothing really more than that.... that there will be some sports car people who buy this right away... not sure how it will break down between Subie and Toyota, but it might have some initial sales...

Once everyone who wants, can afford, and doesn't need more than this car, has one... I think sales will likely cool off quite a bit.

The government doesn't buy these kind of cars, so meeting CAFE might save them some fines... but that doesn't mean this thing will sell.

... but it WILL help with CAFE requirements, as a RWD coupe. Small sales may not help their profitiability, but it will still help CAFE score.

They do have an entry level car. It is called Impreza 2.5i.

Forester 2.5i, and Legacy 2.5i might apply a bit, as well.

You're right, they do have entry-level. I think many were hoping this coupe would come in under the cost of the entry-level Impreza, but, instead, it's just going to give them an entry-level car in a new category.

But those of us who thought of "Subaru Coupe", and thought of the GL10, XT, SVX, and 2.5RS, rolled into a new boxer AWD coupe that can handle anything at any time... are still without a product to buy.

Yeah, it's too bad none of those were ever offered in the 2WD format. Oh, wait, they ALL were! (I know the 2.5RS itself wasn't, but its lesser 2.2liter sibling was.) Sure, they were FWD, but, who knows, maybe there were people that liked them just as they were, with 2WD.

Toyota made a Matrix clone for Pontiac - the Vibe. In its early years, it outsold the Matrix 10:1. Toyota didn't care - it was all money in its pocket.

Subaru may be seeing it the same way. There will be buyers of the Subaru variant, but many more of the Toyota variant. Every one sold puts money in Subaru's pocket. They go home happy.

The problem with people focused on AWD is that they're looking at this as a daily-driver. People that own Miata's generally don't use it as a daily-driver, or, if they do, accept its limitations and enjoy it for what it is. I don't hear Miata owners complaining about the lack of AWD, or the lack of a fixed roof. (well, okay, there might have been a few of those, or they wouldn't have brought out the retracting hard-top.)

Subaru will be adding to the choice in the marketplace for RWD sporty coupes. Why fault them for that?

Instead of complaining, bug them for another Impreza coupe. Then you can get your AWD.

It seems that too many current Subaru owners whine way too much. That's probably why Subaru is moving towards the mainstream - to get away from the whiners and complainers. It seems to be working - sales are increasing.

Yeah, it's too bad none of those were ever offered in the 2WD format. Oh, wait, they ALL were! (I know the 2.5RS itself wasn't, but its lesser 2.2liter sibling was.) Sure, they were FWD, but, who knows, maybe there were people that liked them just as they were, with 2WD.

I said this on Autoblog, but I can't believe I have to point it out here.

OFFERING THE CHOICE IS DIFFERENT THAN NOT. All of those cars were offered with the choice, and all of those cars were big enough to fit someone who is 6'2" tall.

The new car likely WON'T offer AWD as an option for those of us who want it... and I probably won't fit in the car anyway. That limits appeal to those who don't want AWD, and who will fit into and be able to live within the limits of a very small car.

Toyota made a Matrix clone for Pontiac - the Vibe. In its early years, it outsold the Matrix 10:1. Toyota didn't care - it was all money in its pocket.

 

Subaru may be seeing it the same way. There will be buyers of the Subaru variant, but many more of the Toyota variant. Every one sold puts money in Subaru's pocket. They go home happy.

Matrix and Vibe sucked, and it was absolutely clear that it was Toyota ugly, and GM cheap, on both models. If that is the way FT-86 is going to go, it may end up worse than I thought. The newest version of the Matrix/Vibe is horrific. ABSOLUTELY bad.

Selling out does have the word "selling" in it. Subaru may go home happy, but that doesn't mean that people who want to buy a Subaru that Subaru doesn't build, will go home happy.

Would Subaru not go home happier if more customers bought Subaru cars?

The problem with people focused on AWD is that they're looking at this as a daily-driver. People that own Miata's generally don't use it as a daily-driver, or, if they do, accept its limitations and enjoy it for what it is. I don't hear Miata owners complaining about the lack of AWD, or the lack of a fixed roof. (well, okay, there might have been a few of those, or they wouldn't have brought out the retracting hard-top.)

As I said. I already HAVE a miata. Most people who want miatas ALREADY HAVE THEM. They are inexpensive, and have been available for 20 years.

Subaru will be adding to the choice in the marketplace for RWD sporty coupes. Why fault them for that?

Because:

1) there already are RWD sporty coupes.

2) most people don't need something as small as a lotus, or if they do, they buy a lotus.

3)There ISN'T AN AWD COUPE OPTION AT THAT PRICE POINT!

If Subaru doesn't offer one, who else is going to?

Instead of complaining, bug them for another Impreza coupe. Then you can get your AWD.

 

It seems that too many current Subaru owners whine way too much. That's probably why Subaru is moving towards the mainstream - to get away from the whiners and complainers. It seems to be working - sales are increasing.

Sales may be increasing... but Subaru is still selling AWD CARS! That is what people are BUYING!

I AM ASKING FOR AN IMPREZA COUPE. I HAVE SAID SO IN THIS THREAD!

But if Subaru is building this, then they aren't building an Impreza coupe. They haven't built a coupe for 10 years. I cannot imagine that they are going to come out with two within only a few degrees of difference, at the same time. AWD vs RWD, tiny vs. modest size... and the same relative price point... yeah, I don't think they are building two coupes.

I wish they were. I would IGNORE the FT-86 at this point, if I thought there was a bigger, better, more capable, better balanced, more powerful AWD coupe coming out, also.

I don't have a problem with the FT-86 for Toyota. I think Subaru just re-badging it will be a thin excuse for a Subaru, when there are people, and not just me, who are wanting a better AWD Coupe option than this FT-86 Subaru re-badge is going to be. If Subaru wants to use it to defray CAFE, fine. But then also give AWD enthusiasts a proper, capable, real car of a Coupe. An SVX successor that is about the size of a GR Impreza or BL Legacy. 3200-3400lbs, with a choice of H4, H4T, and H6 engines, and choice of gearboxes. That might not be as bad on fuel mileage as some might think, especially at that weight, with good aerodynamics and good gearing.

People who talk about "whining" are just dismissing argument points that can't be soundly refuted. Last I checked, this thread was about discussing a RWD Subaru coupe, merits or otherwise. IF it is just going to be a fap-session over whatever Subaru chooses to offer, and not a point-for-point discussion... then why bother discussing how Subaru might do better.

I want Subaru to build a more balanced, AWD coupe, because I know how appealing it can be, which is wider than a tiny RWD car. It would not be at odds with their reputation, nor their existing customer base.

I want Subaru to do as well as it can. Capitalizing on it's strengths, which include AWD, and getting in on an un-occupied market niche, an AWD sport coupe with a balance between good enthusiast grade performance, and everyday practicality, would appeal to TONS of people, and put Subaru in the position to sell a lot of units to people who want something else besides RWD, which other companies, including TOYOTA's version of this car, already do, or soon will sell.

It would be one thing, if it were being offered with a choice of RWD or AWD... and people could CHOOSE AWD.... but that isn't what is being said by the media outlets. RWD only.

If I wanted RWD, I'd buy what is already available, or used. There are options to choose from.

AWD choices are very slim, and getting very old to support.

Well, Subaru did make the B9 Scrambler AWD hybrid roadster. They must not have gotten enough positive response to bring it to production.

It's clear that Subaru did their research on the new Forester, Outback, & Legacy, as those have been breaking sales records.

If they're bringing out this coupe as RWD, their research must have shown them that there is demand out there for this. They must have done research on an AWD variant, but found that the cost didn't justify the effort.

On the other hand, they may bring out the RWD coupe for 2011, while continuing to work on the AWD possibility - maybe bringing out an AWD variant in 2012 (or whenever they're able to make it work).

It's the same as the answer I got a couple years ago when begging for a Legacy STI: Buy what they're offering now so they have the finances to offer more in a year or two. The more Subarus we buy, the more possibilities they will offer in the future.

They didn't make the B9 Scrambler. A concept car doesn't count as trying something. How many people knew about that at the time, who were not avid automotive news-freaks who search out information like that?

Oh, they did their research?

Why did the Forester get 3rd place in a recent comparo, and people are left wanting for a manual gearbox with the XT engine, or a 5-speed automatic, or a top-end H6 option.

Why do Outback and Legacy look as frumpy as they do? Mechanically they may be fine, but wow, they look bulky. Supposedly it was "Market Research" that said the previous models were too small. Now they want something that makes Audi TT look big... what kind of schizophrenic research are they doing?

You just said that they were bringing out a tiny RWD coupe for CAFE, not for high sales, and because it was an easy-rebadge of a Toyota product, not because it was a widely researched market demand for a tiny RWD Subaru coupe.

How can AWD COST MORE on a chassis that was modified from the existing Subaru Impreza GR chassis? The only way that would happen, is if they modified the Subaru chassis TOO MUCH. Using something closer to Impreza specifications would not be more cost. It could theoretically be LESS COST, by component and platform sharing.

That last sentence is faulty reasoning that got fed to you. It is not the customer's job to justify what they want by buying what they don't want. That doesn't even make sense. If something sells well, nobody thinks it is selling well because people bought it as a message that they really wanted something ELSE.

I don't know about you, but I don't have the money to do that. I have the money to buy ONCE and stick with it for quite a while, until I can do that again. I can't buy a car in hopes of a single statistic might convince someone somewhere to build something else, that hopefully would be better, that then I won't be able to afford to buy, because I just bought the other thing.

A company that uses that reasoning is not doing market research, they are doing statistical justification of what the company wants to build, not what the customer wants to buy from them.

Why should anyone buy into that with their hard earned money, unless the company just happens to blindly come close to the customer's target product, by sheer chance?

I'm sorry, but that is just daft backwards reasoning on their part, and doesn't show intelligence, it shows egotism (they know better than you what you want...) and maybe capriciousness in product planning.