5 spd manual vs. 5 spd automatic debate

It has been past history that there is more power transfer in a manual transmission compared to a automatic. My opinion is that is true is older cars. Today we have computer/electronic shifting and 5 spds. vs 3 spd in older models. I chose the sport shift automatic for a few reasons. There is nobody out there that is going to shift faster than this automatic. I will bet anyone that it will be faster than the manual, unless you are a Indy car driver. Plus with the Subaru 5spd auto, it comes with the most advanced AWD system VTD (Variable Torque Distribution) 55/45 front/rear power split with Limited Slip rear axle and electronic hydraulic clutch that constantly using the best destribution, compared to a 50/50 split from a viscous coupling. It also uses lateral G-sensor and connering logic to select and hold the appropriate gear. Don't anybody come with the excuss of 65lbs heavier either. 5spd manual 5spd automatic 1st 3.166 1st 3.540 2nd 1.882 2nd 2.264 3rd 1.296 3rd 1.471 4th .972 4th 1.00 5th .738 5th .834 final reduction 4.111 final reduction 3.272 Any Questions??

The kicker for me, one is mechanical, the other is psychological. Mechanical: The torque converter. at low engine and ground speeds, the engine is never physically connected, or truly disconnected from the driveline, or the road. It is a viscous connection, like the center diff. I prefer the hard connection, or true disconnection of a clutch. only at higher speeds, and only on some converters, does it "lock up". For the record, I really like the torsen-style gear-driven limited slips, too. Pshycolological: aspect of control and involvement. I will admit some computerized automatics can be better or faster at selecting gears in normal situations. It is the abnormal situations that I wonder about. Namely slow to moderate speeds, on slick surfaces, or other odd situations, where I want to dictate the clutch in or out, and selecting a lower gear for engine braking, or slick surface driving. Automatics might do just fine, but I just like the control in those odd situations. I don't even mind slogging the stick and clutch in city traffic, because I don't spend tons of time there. I don't want to think that my car could nearly drive itself. just turn the key, select drive, cruise control, and all I do is just steer a little bit. I'll drive, thanks. That is the one thing I don't like about my ranger, but the ranger's manual trans and cluch are notoriously un-robust. Hence it can tow 1500lbs less than the automatic version.

Firedawg, Hey, man forgive me but I find your avatar offensive. I am a married man and try to keep my eyes and heart pure. I don't need to look at some other woman in provocative poses. I'm not an old man (I am only 31), but try to conduct myself in a manner pleasing to God. Please, change your icon to something less offensive. One of the things I have long appreciated about this board is the maturity of its members. This is the first time that I have found content that would move me to consider leaving. Thank you and God bless. J.R.

JR, you've got it wrong. The young lady is kneeling down in prayer.

[quote name='CPTChaplin']Firedawg, Hey, man forgive me but I find your avatar offensive. I am a married man and try to keep my eyes and heart pure. I don't need to look at some other woman in provocative poses. I'm not an old man (I am only 31), but try to conduct myself in a manner pleasing to God. Please, change your icon to something less offensive. One of the things I have long appreciated about this board is the maturity of its members. This is the first time that I have found content that would move me to consider leaving. Thank you and God bless. J.R.[/quote] I'll second that. I personally don't find it offensive, but little too much to display on screen at work. And this place is where I'd like to be spending some of my work time (nature of support can be either boring or busy).

The auto has certain advantages. But you will experience more turbo lag with the auto and, like every auto I have driven, its little computer brain can get confused under certain circumstances. Tom

Further about the avatar in question, this site, in addition to having a markedly high level of maturity, might also become a source of information, particularly when the site name changes to LegacyGT.com. Potentially, wives or younger kids could find their way here. Not cool, IMHO. Kevin

I have contacted the user with the avitar in question. Hopefully this gets resolved quickly. And yes, I feel it is not needed at this forum. We try to keep it family and work safe around here.

After seeing how fast some of the guys on best motoring can shift I really doubt an auto could be faster.

I drove an OBXT auto today and it did not leave me with a very positive impression. Posters have made comments like it always selects the right gear but I found driving in normal and sport mode to be somewhat of a let down. Maybe after reading so much, I built up too many expectations. Don't get me wrong, it was smooth and all but there was just something about it that just left me wanting more. Now full manual mode was another story completely. Wow what a hoot. In manual mode it would rev more freely and if you shifted through the gears at just 3k rpm made for a brisk and exciting drive experience. Thats when I decided that the 5spd manual tranny will be the choice for me. Now my dealer just needs to get one.

[quote name='Ridgeracer']After seeing how fast some of the guys on best motoring can shift I really doubt an auto could be faster.[/quote] Ditto on the avatar. It just isn't necessary here. On the manual vs. the auto. The manual will always be faster, hands down. The gear selection when doing it yourself is better than any auto shifter. More importantly is the final drive ratio. The higher the overall drive ratio (gear ratio times the final drive ratio) the quicker the car. Get out a calculator and try it. Plus the auto is a little heavier.

I got the 5 speed auto simply because driving in heavy traffic bites with a stick (which I am forced to do every day). If you can avoid the traffic get the manual. My past 3 cars have been manuals and loved how I was always in control of the motor. However, driving an auto in traffic is so much more enjoyable to me. my .02 Kent

Thanks for the support folks, on the avatar issue. And I am glad to have Firedawg's input and presence on the board. Everyone who comes here has something to add (some of it was just a little too much.) Now as to the 5EAT. I want the best of both worlds. Yes, there is a performance hit for getting the most out of the engine, but it still gets up and goes better than most vehicles. Now about the gearing ratio, won't the auto get slightly better MPG at highway speeds with the lower RPM to MPH? I am coming from a truck that drank gas at 12MPG no matter where I was driving. I am looking to halve my gas prices. J.R.

[quote name='CPTChaplin'] Now about the gearing ratio, won't the auto get slightly better MPG at highway speeds with the lower RPM to MPH? I am coming from a truck that drank gas at 12MPG no matter where I was driving. I am looking to halve my gas prices. J.R.[/quote] I believe the auto is rated at 19/24 while I know the manual is rated at 19/25. My XT has averaged 23 for the first 450 miles. One tankful came in at 25. Pretty good considering my 01 OB with 4EAT was getting 23 or so of late. I must admit I was REALLY pushing that one. The new one I am shifting between 3,000 and 4,000.

I recently went through the MT vs AT debate too, but in the end I went with the 5EAT, mainly to be family and wife friendly. The decision to go AT wasn't as difficult with the Legacy GT since it does have 5 cogs, Sportshift and it does produce some very smooth and quick shifts. Also, the broad torque curve of the 2.5 turbo makes even a slushbox fun to drive. While there's no doubt that a MT will be faster off the line, it would be difficult for even the most seasoned MT driver to consistently produce shifts as smooth as the 5EAT. Also making the choice easier was the fact that 5EAT does come with VTD and the 5MT is still a spin off the old 1.8 tranny with reactive VC AWD. I'm just a sucker for the latest and greatest. Had the GT been equipped with the STi 6-speed with DCCD, then it would have been a MUCH more difficult choice. Ken

I went with the 5MT and I love it. I have not driven manual much in the past, so hills are a little bit of a challenge for me, as I found out tonight. But overall I am glad I got the 5MT after testing both. If I lived in an area with worse traffic conditions, the 5EAT would be ok.

Ahh, the debate I have been waiting for. It is this decision that has kept me from finding my car and buying it right out. Ok, first things first- the manual will always be the faster choice. It gives you the freedom and the power to do what you want and when you want it. The automatic I test drove was very impressive. This was after testing the TSX,TL and some other sedans with manumatics. The tranny will hold the gear all the way to the rev limiter, and will not budge unless you tell it to. This one was quite nice, very fun to drive. The shifts were a bit long, but not excessively so. Ok now the decision- 5MT vs. 5EAT. If it was a 6MT I would be getting that hands down, but with each transmission offering 5 speeds, its kind of a push. Also, since I find myself in traffic more often than I like (NYC area) and taking long trips down the coast, I would enjoy the ease of having an automatic while having the sportiness of a manual. Chalk one customer up for the 5EAT. Now the only question is- how much power can the 5EAT handle? The peanut gallery is still quiet on that one, maybe Mr. Hansen could enlighten us. :idea:

[quote name='Ken S']Also making the choice easier was the fact that 5EAT does come with VTD and the 5MT is still a spin off the old 1.8 tranny with reactive VC AWD. I'm just a sucker for the latest and greatest. Had the GT been equipped with the STi 6-speed with DCCD, then it would have been a MUCH more difficult choice. Ken[/quote] I wonder if any forthcoming performance edition (Legacy STi, perhaps) will come with this trans. Hypothetically, how easy-difficult-impossible might it be to transplant the 6spd into the Legacy? Perhaps a version with a torque-sensing center differential (Quaife or Torsen style) rather than a driver-controllable one. I am not sure the legacy is the right car for a DCCD. It isn't really a rally car. Seems like the Leg GT engine is closesly related to the WRX STi engine, with some head and valve differences, but are the transmissions similar in dimension? Could custom length driveshafts do the trick? other big differences that dash these hopes? Just wondering how likely Subie is to include that trans in a future model. I probably wouldn't swap it in myself, unless I decided to "build" a Legacy STi myself with mods. I'd have to strike it modestly rich first.

I want to applogize to all that were offended of my advatar. I am a family man too. I was not aware of your opinions, but have changed my advatar to something more suitable. ;)

The 5 speed manual is why I am buying this car. This is one of the few larger cars that a manual is going to be fairly common. When I went to the G35 dealer they had no manuals on the lot and said it was a special order,, even the BMW dealer said they sell very few manuals. I am concerned about resale, and not be able to sell a manual if it is very unusual for that car. I think the Legacy will be sold in about 40% manual which is an acceptable number. I have missed driving a stick for many years, but finally the kids all have their licenses and their own cars. To me, it's just more fun to drive and I love the more connected you feel with the car. Americans are wimps and few even know how to drive a stick any more. Go to Europe and you can see how to really drive. Here are my observations on a recent trip to Germany; 80% of all cars are manuals and they take their driving seriously. No cup holders there, no driving while talking on a cell phone, no eating or drinking. Average speed in the fast lane is 100mph and 140 to 160 is not uncommon with the accident rates per mile less then ours. After driving 2500 miles, I saw very few cops and no one getting a ticket. They know how to move over and let people pass. Sorry, getting off topic here a bit, Anyway, sure driving a stick requires more concentration and effort, but it can be well worth it. I'm looking forward to my 5 speed manual GT Limited sedan.

Easy to make one. Just get an aftermarket final drive set (~4.3)for our beloved 5AET legacies and wham, the acceleration of an STi!

[quote name='"Legacy_Fan"']..even the BMW dealer said they sell very few manuals. I am concerned about resale, ...... Intersting your comments on German driving. However, my experience with a German car company did not reflect that. My distant second choice was a 325xi with 5MT. Problem is that my dealer simply couldn't find one. Sure, for $500 he could have gotten one from out of state.... Having said that they had lots of cars with autos, leather (upgrade from VINYL), sunroofs, powers seats and stereo equipment. Nothing to do with "an ultimate driving machine" if you ask me.

[quote name='axxizzer']Easy to make one. Just get an aftermarket final drive set (~4.3)for our beloved 5AET legacies and wham, the acceleration of an STi![/quote] Woah... are you serious? :D

Well... I am currently in the market for a new LGT and have driven both tranny's. I was impressed with the 5A and its performance. However, I was equally impressed with the new 5M. I have always liked sticks, so I will be going that route. Manuals seem to be a little stronger and more forgiving with high milage (repairs cost less).

[quote name='SoldonSubie']..even the BMW dealer said they sell very few manuals. I am concerned about resale, ...... Intersting your comments on German driving. However, my experience with a German car company did not reflect that. My distant second choice was a 325xi with 5MT. Problem is that my dealer simply couldn't find one. Sure, for $500 he could have gotten one from out of state.... Having said that they had lots of cars with autos, leather (upgrade from VINYL), sunroofs, powers seats and stereo equipment. Nothing to do with "an ultimate driving machine" if you ask me.[/quote] I wouldn't worry about resale value. It's a car...it will depreciate. Buy what you want, and what you'll have fun with. Kevin