Amp/speaker question

I recently purchased two pairs of Infinity Reference 6032si (50watt RMS 4ohm.) Would it be necessary or recommended to power the with a seperate amp? I'm not looking to add a sub or crazy bass. Just an improvement over stock.

Also do I keep the factory tweeter powered or not with these speakers? I know I'll be getting a lot of high up front.

I'm not a savy in the audio field as I used to be. Any good ideas or recommendations would be great. I've searched the forum but quite haven't found the answer I'm looking for. A lot of mixed results.

I've never been a fan of infinity speakers, but anyway...

An aftermarket amp is always better than headunit power. Especially with upgraded speakers, because they are less efficient than factory so they need more power to reach the same volume. Having the extra power will also increase your bass response, tho it won't be extraordinary with those speakers.

I assume those are coaxial speakers...if so, then you'll be best off leaving the factory tweeter disconnected.

Legacy is about as bottom-of-the-line as you can get with amps. The fact that it's $35 should tell you something. I realize you're not looking for the best of the best, but that amp will likely die on you pretty quick and sound like crap for the short time it's working.

I'd get this amp myself.

Here's another lower-price option I'd be comfortable owning.

Even this wouldn't be too bad.

Before dropping the cash on an amp, install the speakers off the factory head unit and see how it sounds. It will be an improvement over the factory speakers and may be all the you are looking for. If you find that you need more, then you can address the amplifier issue. Leave the factory tweets connected and if it's too bright then unplug the tweeters.

An amp will only make the speakers sound better but it's a lot of money that you may not need to spend if you are looking for a minor upgrade. As a matter of fact, I would recommend upgrading the head unit before adding an amplifier. It will have more power than the factory and provide a much cleaner signal to the speakers.

LOCs would do the job if you want to stay on the cheaper side. I've never listened to a Subaru system set up like that though, so I don't know how it sounds personally. I know the factory head unit does quite a bit of EQing and cuts bass output at higher volumes, so you might not be happy with the sound. There's a thread about the Cleansweep here that shows the EQ curve of the factory head unit to see what I mean.

A processor like a Cleansweep would be better overall, but it's up to you if you want to spend the extra money. I got a used PXE-H660 for less than $150 and I'm glad I did personally. There's a couple other options too like the MS8 and BitOne depending on how much you want to spend.

Depending on what climate controls your car has, swapping head units can get really expensive. If you have auto climate controls, get ready to spend ~$600 I think for the install kit, plus the cost of the head unit. I wasn't willing to do that. If you have manual controls it's a lot easier, but I haven't looked into that at all since it doesn't apply to me so I don't know everything involved.

I like my Alpine unit so far, especially because it was so easy to auto-tune it. For a hardcore audiophile it's probably not good enough, but it's good enough for me and I was pretty big into stereo building a few years ago so I know what I like.

You can keep using the factory controls with any of the units, but they'll all be tuned at one particular volume level on your head unit, so using the factory volume control isn't "ideal" with any of them. I wasn't willing to use an aftermarket volume control, and I don't have any real complaints with using the factory volume control with the PXE tuned at volume 25.

No, it is NOT nescessary to use an external amplifier with your aftermarket speakers. Is using an external amplifier recomended with aftermarket speakers, yes! Why? Most H.U.'s only put out a mere 18-22 RMS, most aftermarket (if not all) speakers are rated/designed to be fed more power than that. How much? It varies driver to driver, but I can tell you that most if not all will be rated/designed to handle more than 18-22 RMS.

If you went ahead and spent your hard earned money on aftermarket speakers, than why not get full potential out of them by properly powering them with an external amplifier:) Than again, it's all up to you. I would recomend that you try running them off your OEM HU power & if you are satisfied, great. If you are not, awesome, now look into an external amplifier.

I do not see any reason why you would keep your OEM tweeters hooked up. I highly advise you to disconnect them. If you are after imaging, than you should have looked into a set of components. Unhook your OEM tweeters, they are a treble headache & will kill your soundstage:)

I agree with Dbl, never been a fan of Harmon Kardon (Infinity). I dislike their tweeters, sound like aluminum cans, but taste is subjective. What may sound good to you, may sound poor to another. Vise Versa.

Crazy Bass? You will notice an improvement in "bass response" but let those speakers be what they were intended for. Midrange. I wouldn't ever "substitute" with drivers. Replacing your OEM drivers with aftermarket speakers will give you more "clarity." If you want evan more, amplify them with the appropriate amount of wattage.

Powerwise? Remember, it's always better to overpower than underpower. I would look for an amplifier that puts out atleast 50 RMS per channel. There is a lot of amplifiers that push out 75 per channel (seems like that's unversal). That should be fine, just adjust your gains properly. Remember, a gain is not a "volume control." It's just their to match your voltage from the source. Also, any amplifier that puts out more than 18-22 RMS per channel would be an upgrade from your OEM, but do it right and send your speakers 50-80 RMS per channel.

Locs? Do you plan on just using a LOC or an OEM Processor upgrade with it like the cleansweep or MS-8? Some OEM Processor Upgrade modules actually have LOC's built in it. There are plenty of options when it comes to OEM Processor upgrades, you just have to know what you all want it do to. It is hard to recomend you an OEM Processor upgrade, when I don't know exactly what you are after.

On the Alpine Unit. Personally, I have delt with both the PXE H650 & H660. Great units, but as far as flexability goes, the MS-8 & Bitone are they way to go. ALpine features "Imprint" which is basically your Auto tone (holy grail of DSP). Their have been many manufactures in the past that have produced "auto tone", too bad none of them work, like the Alpines:) The MS-8 & Bitone on the other hand, do:)

Oh, I just seen your last post. You went ahead and purchased components up front. Good choice, definately disconnect your OEM tweeters.

Ha, those dual HVAC replacement kits are rediculously priced. I chose to bypass the OEM HU & run a Car PC in the Cubbie above. It serves as both my source & processor. LOL, was cheaper than the dual HVAC replacement kit & I can do a LOT more with it.

Not really a fan of Infinity either. I've tried everything from stock head with upgrade speakers to Cleansweep (marginal). now to Alpine single din head (the way to go IMO). Nothing beats a clean preamp signal. Worse thing to do is to use a cheap LOC . Using a Sub of some sort (Underseat/ in the back etc) can really improve sound and imaging. Best thing is you can raise the crossover points on the front speakers which allows them to play cleaner and louder while raising bthe soundstage. Here is a writeup I did on my Forester today (A fairly simple and

inexpensive system compared to my LGT) Pics didn't load but will be on there shortly. I used some of the same principles to get the LGT to sound really good.

http://www.subaruforester.org/vbulletin/f77/my-sound-system-upgrade-my-05-foz-104646/#post1137522

I liked my Infinity Kappa 6x8s so much that I saved them for the day when I finally sell/trade my 2006 rustang GT.

My only concern regarding the use of the Subaru factory head unit would be has anyone tested it to see if it outputs a flat signal? I know a lot of factory radios out there these days have EQ curves pre-patterned into them to compensate for the cheap speakers that are being utilized in the vehicle. If it isn't flat, results are going to vary using LOCs connected between the factory head unit and the amplifiers.

Not really a fan of Infinity either. I've tried everything from stock head with upgrade speakers to Cleansweep (marginal). now to Alpine single din head (the way to go IMO). Nothing beats a clean preamp signal. Worse thing to do is to use a cheap LOC . Using a Sub of some sort (Underseat/ in the back etc) can really improve sound and imaging. Best thing is you can raise the crossover points on the front speakers which allows them to play cleaner and louder while raising bthe soundstage. Here is a writeup I did on my Forester today (A fairly simple and

inexpensive system compared to my LGT) Pics didn't load but will be on there shortly. I used some of the same principles to get the LGT to sound really good.

 

 

Interesting,

 

Like the Infinity tweeters, the Access Line from Focal is generally know for being "bright." More interesting is placement > sails? Typically, from all the installs I have came across with the Access Line, the tweeters were usually raised farther up the dash to tame the "brightness." A Hp @ 63 Hz? You must have the 6.5" set.

 

Your sound stage lowered? Check this link, you may find it interesting. This is from HAT Audio geared towards a 3 way configuration, but same theory applies for "sound stage height." Check page 5, "the brain can be easily fooled with the sound stage being "High Up"

 

 

Man, link wasn't working. Look for the CAP LOCKED WORDS toward the bottom, the ones in between the stars (****). Here you go:

 

Lesson Three: The Effect of HRTF, ITD, and IID

Head-related transfer function (HRTF), interaural intensity differences (IID), and interaural time delay

(ITD) all play a key role in the optimum placement location for the Legatia component speakers. A

sound wave approaching the eardrum from your chosen speaker location is shaped by interactions

with the size and shape of your head, torso, and outer ear, resulting in the HRTF. More specifically,

the HRTF is the ratio between the sound pressures of the wave at the eardrum, as compared to the

sound pressure that would exist at the center of the head if the head were removed. In general, the

sound arriving at the ear further from the source is attenuated and delayed relative to the sound

arriving at the ear closer to the source. This generates an interaural intensity difference (IID) and an

interaural time delay (ITD). As a sound approaches the head, the ratio of distances from the speaker

location to the near and far ears increases, and the effects of head-shadowing are amplified, causing

the IID to increase. The spectral shaping caused by the head and the shape of the outer ear may also

change. The ITD, which results from the absolute difference in path length from the source to the

ears, remains approximately constant as distance decreases. From this we learn:

 

•

ITD is the dominant factor for frequencies below about 500 Hz;

 

•

 

A combination of ITD and IID are dominant for frequencies between approximately 500 Hz and

 

2,000 Hz; and

•

 

IID, in concert with HRTF, are dominant above about 2,000 Hz.

 

These are generalizations, and are subject to the size and shape of one

 

’s head and torso, and size

 

and shape of the outer ear (the folds and ridges of the ear), but in general, the above is a good

guideline for establishing ITD, IID and HRTF thresholds for the human auditory system.

Because the Legatia midbass

 

’ ability to play into the sub-200 Hz range, an effect clearly dominated

 

by ITD, up to and including frequencies exceeding 6,000 Hz, an effect clearly dominated by IID and

HRTF, placement of this driver is extremely important. The driver should be placed as far forward as

possible in the vehicle to optimize ITD. Lateral (forward to back) placement is much more important

than horizontal placement (up and down). *************** THIS IS BECAUSE THE BRAIN'S ABILITY TO PROCESS SOUNDS SUCH AS SPECTRAL ENVELOPE CUES, AND USE A PHENOMENON KNOWN AS THE "PRECEDENCE EFFECT"; THE BRAIN CAN BE EASILY "FOOLED" INTO THINKING A SOUND STAGE IS HIGH WITH KICK PANEL OR FLOOR MOUNTED SPEAKERS (A WORD TO THE WISE: THE BEST PLACE TO PUT A SET OF SPEAKERS IS NOT ALWAYS "UP HIGH" *****************

as most vehicles do

 

 

 

not offer an amicable location in the dashboard or a-pillars for good image placement for both seated

passengers, especially in the critical frequencies sub-500 Hz). In addition to the time equalized

placement of the drivers, the end-user must also consider that above approximately 2,000 Hz,

intensity plays a key role in good sound staging and imaging. Therefore, the Legatia midbass

’ should

 

be placed in an area where intensity differences can be equalized, either mechanically or

electronically, to ensure good imaging and sound staging.

The lesson to be learned is that, like Lesson Two, the Legatia midbass should be placed as far

forward from your listening position as possible, and every effort should be made to optimize time and

intensity domain characteristics of the installation.

 

I admire your passion for audio & nice install!

 

 

-Tyler

One of the highest soundstages I ever had on my own system was a kickpanel setup. I just couldn't get it right on my Forester and opted for the sail panel placement. Worked out surprisingly well without going active x-over (different and separate x-over setings between Tweets and mids ) .

Yes, Focal Access tweets are a little bright out the box (but not harsh like others). A little EQ work and the magic begins.

Legatia Speakers- wow, now there you have the cream of the crop.

One of the highest soundstages I ever had on my own system was a kickpanel setup. I just couldn't get it right on my Forester and opted for the sail panel placement. Worked out surprisingly well without going active x-over (different and separate x-over setings between Tweets and mids ) .

 

Yes, Focal Access tweets are a little bright out the box (but not harsh like others). A little EQ work and the magic begins.

 

Legatia Speakers- wow, now there you have the cream of the crop.

Ah,

The Legatia's are in a league of their own. I have owned the Legatia's along w/ a few other drivers from HAT in the past, and was very pleased. Since than, I have gone w/ a fully 3 way active front stage. Scanspeak Illuminators, Scanspeak 12M, and a set of Peerless SLS 8"s (great bang for the buck). Now that is the "cream of the crop:)"

In the past few weeks I have been flipping back and forth between two sets of Mid(ranges) : The Scan 12M's & the Dyn Esotars. From what I have noticed, is the Scan's have been a little more "lively" & "colorful" while the Dynaudio's seem to have a more "dry" "flat" "neutral" presence, closer compared to DLS.

I kind of have OCD, not going to lie. I am thinking about heading back to 2 way & experimenting with HLCD's from ID.

"Active" is definately the way to go. Flexability becomes endless. Problem for me is finding a Soundcard w/ 10 + channels, T/A, X-overs, & LOTS of EQ Bands

-Tyler

Tyler, you sound like my twin . The never ending search for perfect sound. My Legacy nice system . Image Dynamic SUB ,.DYnaudio speakers , older Xtant amps. I'm still stuck in old school on some components, using an old PPI 31 octave EQ with umbilical cord to tune from the front seat. Its the same unit that won accolades in my SVX.

Ha, I knew their were other "audio holics" on this forum. You are right, An audiophile can not achieve "Perfect Sound," they can only Pursue & that's what makes it fun:).

Older PPI, great stuff along with older Phoenix Gold, AudioArt & a few others. As for as Components/drives goes, the only "old school" components I have had my hands on were A/D/S & old MB Quart (before maxsonics bought em' out). It was the "Q" series from the Quarts. I can not remember the exact model number on the A/D/S but I believe PPI made a "replica" of them, they were the PPI 356cs.

I have sold much of my previous amplifiers & "Mainstream" products. Going DIY & heading w/ drivers was definately the way to go. When I get completed with my (homeade) amplifiers, I will have to post them up!

I just installed HAT Unity 6 in the front / Imagine 6 in rear, and I'm loving them. The detail is superb. I can't imagine how good the Legatias must sound, but in the the spirit of never achieving the perfect sound, there is always room to grow.

Let me ask you guys a question. (Patrick, you might very well know the answer to this given you made my spacers.) One of the reasons I chose the Unity/Imagine instead of the slightly more expensive HAT Clarus was the mounting depth. I read in several places that it was impossible to fit speakers deeper than 2.92" in my car ('11 Legacy) without modifying my stock grilles. Was this misinformation? I treated that 2.92" as a hard constraint and only auditioned speakers that were shallower. (I realize that if I cut out my stock grilles I can mount deeper speakers, but I want a stealth setup for now.)

At any rate, maybe I'll upgrade to Legatias down the road, but for now I'm happy. Other than the headunit (Alpine CDA-117), everything is stealth. My PDX F4 and M6 amps are under the front seats. PXA-H100 DSP is in the glove compartment. Grilles are stock. And my JL 10W6 sub takes up almost no trunk space. Besides the headunit you'd think its stock -- til you power it up and hear some amazing SQ.

I just installed HAT Unity 6 in the front / Imagine 6 in rear, and I'm loving them. The detail is superb. I can't imagine how good the Legatias must sound, but in the the spirit of never achieving the perfect sound, there is always room to grow.

 

At a certain level, all drivers sound fantastic & the difference between Speaker A to Speaker B is VERY small, it really comes down to a matter of personal preference.

 

Let me ask you guys a question. (Patrick, you might very well know the answer to this given you made my spacers.) One of the reasons I chose the Unity/Imagine instead of the slightly more expensive HAT Clarus was the mounting depth. I read in several places that it was impossible to fit speakers deeper than 2.92" in my car ('11 Legacy) without modifying my stock grilles. Was this misinformation? I treated that 2.92" as a hard constraint and only auditioned speakers that were shallower. (I realize that if I cut out my stock grilles I can mount deeper speakers, but I want a stealth setup for now.)

 

I will let Patrick answer this one. You could also go DIY and Pod off a Ring & Grill. Not sure how familiar you are with fiberglass, but you can achieve an OEM look very easily.

 

 

At any rate, maybe I'll upgrade to Legatias down the road, but for now I'm happy. Other than the headunit (Alpine CDA-117), everything is stealth. My PDX F4 and M6 amps are under the front seats. PXA-H100 DSP is in the glove compartment. Grilles are stock. And my JL 10W6 sub takes up almost no trunk space. Besides the headunit you'd think its stock -- til you power it up and hear some amazing SQ.

I am not sure if you ever audited the Legatias & you may want to before you swap them out. Like I said earlier, at a certain point/level, it really comes down to personal preference & you MAY actually prefer your Unity's over the Legatias. Goin W/ a Stealth Install to maintain OEM look is THE WAY to go:)!

Ah, you prefer your Imprint? Did you ever look into the MS-8 or Bitone or possibly a Mini DSP?

-Tyler

sweet thread jack

OP,

Sorry for the "Jack." I thought your questions(s) were answered already. I'll be on the forum for a few hours, post any questions you may have & I will see if I can answer them.

-Tyler

I'm partly to blame, so I'll contribute an answer to the original question.

OP, I suspect that the stock headunit puts out 15-20W RMS. (I don't have any evidence to back up this claim other than that the stock speaker baskets are stamped "35W Max".) If you run your new Infinitys on headunit power, as another poster pointed out, they will sound softer because they are less sensitive than the stock speakers. That said, you'll probably still here an improvement in SQ. If you used to listen to your stereo at volume x, maybe now you'll listen to it at about x+3 for equivalent volume. As long as x is ~3 less than max, you're fine.

If I were you, I'd try this first and see if you're happy with the SQ and volume. If you're not, my suggestion would be to upgrade the headunit rather than buy an amp. You can find aftermarket headunits with power ratings that will match 50W RMS speakers. (Alpine offers a "powerpack" as an optional feature on several of its headunits). An aftermarket headunit from any brand will offer a significant improvement in SQ overstock for reasons we can get into if you want, in addition to providing more power and cool features.

Tyler,

I went with IMPRINT over MS-8 or BitOne for three reasons. Reason 1 is that I'm not really into messing with my EQ, so having all the manual controls available is somewhat of a waste. I'm perfectly happy setting it once with my computer and letting it be. Reason 2 is that my primary music source is my iPhone. I *think* that the connection from headunit to MS-8 or BitOne is analog, yes? If so, that would mean going D to A to D to A, whereas using IMPRINT the signal remains D from source through headunit and processor, and only gets converted to A once. Reason 3 is cost. The PXA-H100 ran me 150, which is money saved that I could put into my sub and sub amp.

Regarding fiberglass, I know very little, but I'm down to learn!