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Variable Electronic Supercharger


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Also per this thread, does know anyone know if someone has tried the Phantom eSC on any 2.5i platform?

 

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/phantom-supercharger-2-5i-and-3-6r-214756.html

 

The brz/frs demand is so high, that production is severely back logged. if I was to get on the list today it's a little over 1 1/2 year wait.

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How can a supercharger get you 15 kph in 2nd gear? Engine RPM and wheel speed are fixed by the gearing and a direct relationship, not influenced by power. Is this CVT magic?

 

Sorry for not making it clear. What I mean is with the SC my max speed increase by 15kph. Without SC, if I do 2nd gear pull, I could only reached max 82kph (redline) and with SC, it reached 97kph.

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Do you have the actual numbers of airflow before and after. Without pressurizing (much) I wonder how airflow is increased unless the stock airbox is a major restriction, which I'm doubtful it is.

 

This is confusing to me, how would the gearing change?

 

Yup, we have actual numbers. After the change, there are much more instances with boost. The MAF had to be rescaled again because of this. I also initially thought with SC, drop-in filter would be enough, but I was wrong. Probably repositioning of the SC and removal of the L-shaped and U-shaped tubes have done some wonders too.

 

There's no gearing change. When doing 2nd gear pull, my top speed increase, without SC it could do max top speed of 82kph until redline while with SC, it could do 97kph. Is that clear?

Edited by Gborja888
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After having the e-SC for more than 2 months, I think it's about time to give you an honest to goodness assessment. Most of you would definitely want to know whether this really work or not.

The answer is simple YES, it really works. After the installation you could definitely feel the power. RPM needle would definitely move much faster. But for 3.6R owners, I don't think you will not feel any much difference. So this is not for you. Those with 2.0L and below engine, you should get big improvement. My tuner said, those with diesel engine would also get big improvement.

 

Does it provide boost? YES, but not across the whole power band. In other words, boost up to certain point. For 2.5L engine, only max of 1psi until 4000rpm, but it still provide more air up until the redline. If you have 1.6 or 2.0 liter engine probably you would get enough boost up until redline. For 3.6L, I don't think there would be any boost seen unless you install 2 of this maybe. Just kidding!

 

Is it worth it? For 700USD and 10hp, probably most of you would argue and say “NO”. But for me 2.5i owner, it is certainly worth it. Just put it this way, I can’t drive my car without it anymore, it just feel slow and weird. Hey! It still definitely cheaper than any other power upgrade and modifications out there for our car. But just like any other car enthusiast, I still want more power. More boost! But for more boost, our 2.5i car need to upgrade our fuel injectors and fuel pump. I’m hitting 92-93% when doing the pull now. Probably up to 2 more psi is still fine.

 

If you want more power (40hp or more) and have the money, then get the belt-driven ROTREX or Raptor supercharger. Or better yet buy a 2.5GT or 3.6R. I was initially toying of swapping my car to a 2.5GT, but after seeing the car and its interior condition. I said, never mind. Most of the people smoke here and they even smoke inside the car (with windows open of course). That makes the car interior looks so old and dirty. If I’m going to get a faster car, I would definitely buy brand new. It can still be a Suby or probably another brand with turbo.

 

I have already talked with the SC vendor/maker and informed them of my result and they said, they are certainly keep trying to improve their product.

 

Currently, there are three e-SC maker in the market today that makes the best e-SC now in China:

1. JianChem (maker of my SC now)

2. ChuangNeng (maker from Taiwan) (Probably hanger can research more about their SC)

3. MZL (maker from China) (Still waiting for their new generation e-SC)

 

The ChuangNeng allows multiple SCs installation into one car, but their SC are a little too expensive. I’ve heard MZL get max boost of 0.3bar but it activated only at 4000rpm and above and their price is good.

Edited by Gborja888
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While looking at the logs, I noticed that e-SC actually was able to maintain 1psi of pressure in the intake manifold up until redline. I thought initially it was not. The negative pressure actually increased up to -1.58psi at redline for no SC, when you compare this with the one with SC log, pressure is only -0.58 at redline. To get a boost up until redline, 2.5i car need at least 2-3 psi.
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How can a supercharger get you 15 kph in 2nd gear? Engine RPM and wheel speed are fixed by the gearing and a direct relationship, not influenced by power. Is this CVT magic?

Because torque converter! Not a mechanical connection fluid coupling.

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Because torque converter! Not a mechanical connection fluid coupling.

No.

 

I honestly can't believe people are still taking these things seriously.

Edited by nossy
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While looking at the logs, I noticed that e-SC actually was able to maintain 1psi of pressure in the intake manifold up until redline. I thought initially it was not. The negative pressure actually increased up to -1.58psi at redline for no SC, when you compare this with the one with SC log, pressure is only -0.58 at redline. To get a boost up until redline, 2.5i car need at least 2-3 psi.

 

If it's negative it is not boost. It is more accurate to say that it has less vacuum (which corresponds to more air flow).

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Because torque converter! Not a mechanical connection fluid coupling.

 

??

 

OP, you said the difference is about 10hp, but you added an open filter and a tune for that right? I'm not convinced any of your power is coming from the supercharger. Can you dyno with it on and off in the current setup? Also post airflow logs with it on and off?

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This product is pure crap.

 

I read post #1 and then decided to skip the entire thread to post this.

 

If you don't understand why, you need to research basic physics and energy.

Perhaps you can enlighten us as to how forced induction cannot add power to a engine.

 

Btw how many of you naysayers are aware that audi is bringing an electric turbo charger not unlike this to production to decrease lag.

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A turbo spins at what, 120k rpm, what is this spinning at? A turbo has blades that start wide and taper inward so that air is compressed, I don't see that in this product. He's seeing 1psi max, according to him, and none at redline. That's not exactly forced induction. I've asked for airflow numbers before and after, but have only seen "they increased". I asked for dynos before and after. Lastly he said that after air filter and tune it's about a 10hp/9tq increase. I mean, heck, that could come from tune and the air filter alone. I know other companies are making electric turbochargers, but that's a fairly casual connection to equate the two. Maybe with hard data we could be mildly convinced, but I see none of that data here.
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Can this product work in theory? Yes.

 

Have the BRZ/FRS guys had "positive" results with the kit? Yes, but see below.

 

Is the technology there to make this a good option compared to the available alternatives? Not yet and not if you consider all of the factors

 

I've yet to see a dyno chart directly and truly comparing the ESC to a non-ESC car. This means taking a fully tuned BRZ without the ESC and plotting it against the SAME car, on the SAME day with the SAME tuner with the ESC tuned. I've read through pages and pages of the thread over on ft86 and nobody is calling them out on the fact that they are comparing dynos from different cars, with different mods at different locations, tuned vs. untuned - it's a mess and it's convincing the uneducated masses that this is a good bang for your buck modification. The dyno runs between stock and ESC are being started at different RPM as well, I realize this is because of the limits of the battery pack, but this also is going to cause skewed results when comparing the two plots.

 

Lets also mention the fact that in a car that revs to 7500+ and has the gearing of the BRZ you're going to be spending most (all?) of your time outside of the area where the ESC makes the most gains. It will speed up your 1st gear for you a bit... Big gains in the low end/midrange on a street driven car are noticed on a daily basis in situations below 100% throttle. My LGT's torque is great for speeding up around someone on the freeway, I can give it partial throttle, build partial boost and accelerate without going WOT like an idiot - the ESC is useless in this case.

 

This technology has its place, and someday we will likely see it in abundance (for example once Elon Musk decides to hookup his batteries to one), but anyone looking to do this on a 2.5i, BRZ/FRS or *insert average car here* is much better off with one of a multitude of other options. Yes you can say "Look at my dyno! I made power!" but it's just not a practical solution overall.

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Have the BRZ/FRS guys had "positive" results with the kit? Yes, but see below.

 

Is the technology there to make this a good option compared to the available alternatives? Not yet and not if you consider all of the factors

 

I've yet to see a dyno chart directly and truly comparing the ESC to a non-ESC car. This means taking a fully tuned BRZ without the ESC and plotting it against the SAME car, on the SAME day with the SAME tuner with the ESC tuned. I've read through pages and pages of the thread over on ft86 and nobody is calling them out on the fact that they are comparing dynos from different cars, with different mods at different locations, tuned vs. untuned - it's a mess and it's convincing the uneducated masses that this is a good bang for your buck modification. The dyno runs between stock and ESC are being started at different RPM as well, I realize this is because of the limits of the battery pack, but this also is going to cause skewed results when comparing the two plots.

 

Lets also mention the fact that in a car that revs to 7500+ and has the gearing of the BRZ you're going to be spending most (all?) of your time outside of the area where the ESC makes the most gains. It will speed up your 1st gear for you a bit... Big gains in the low end/midrange on a street driven car are noticed on a daily basis in situations below 100% throttle. My LGT's torque is great for speeding up around someone on the freeway, I can give it partial throttle, build partial boost and accelerate without going WOT like an idiot - the ESC is useless in this case.

 

This technology has its place, and someday we will likely see it in abundance (for example once Elon Musk decides to hookup his batteries to one), but anyone looking to do this on a 2.5i, BRZ/FRS or *insert average car here* is much better off with one of a multitude of other options. Yes you can say "Look at my dyno! I made power!" but it's just not a practical solution overall.

 

I disagree with your comments about phantom ESC. They are measurign 2.5psi at redline with a peaks of 5psi. The numbers that they are reporting on the dyno line up with expected value of 2.5psi of boost. However, I can't say that I have studied the dyno charts, but the first thing I did when I read the phantom posts was do these result makes sense from a mathematical stand point.

 

I would say that its more important with 7500rpm band to have better low end torque. Not everyone wants to have to constantly keep the rpm up and wind the engine out. It is much more practical to have low end torque for a street vehicle. Phantom ESC have had for some time had partial throttle boost feature, so you don't have to look like an 'idiot'. It would be great if the ESC made 5psi throughout the rpm band, but they are also half the $ as much as the supercharger and turbo charger kits for BRZ/FRS and a lot easier to install. Are they the best solution for an all out performance car no, but neither is a Legacy or even a Subaru engine. This isn't the ebay leaf blower supercharger kit...

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A turbo spins at what, 120k rpm, what is this spinning at?

 

Most turbo's don't spin at 120k rpm unless running at high boost. Most factory turbo spin at less than 100k rpm at the factory boost settings. Aftermarket mechanical superchargers often spin in the 40-80K rpm range.

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I disagree with your comments about phantom ESC. They are measurign 2.5psi at redline with a peaks of 5psi. The numbers that they are reporting on the dyno line up with expected value of 2.5psi of boost. However, I can't say that I have studied the dyno charts, but the first thing I did when I read the phantom posts was do these result makes sense from a mathematical stand point.

If they are seeing that much at redline, the charts I've seen are not indicating this. If you wouldn't mind linking the specific post...

 

I would say that its more important with 7500rpm band to have better low end torque. Not everyone wants to have to constantly keep the rpm up and wind the engine out. It is much more practical to have low end torque for a street vehicle. Phantom ESC have had for some time had partial throttle boost feature, so you don't have to look like an 'idiot'. It would be great if the ESC made 5psi throughout the rpm band, but they are also half the $ as much as the supercharger and turbo charger kits for BRZ/FRS and a lot easier to install. Are they the best solution for an all out performance car no, but neither is a Legacy or even a Subaru engine. This isn't the ebay leaf blower supercharger kit...

I completely agree that not everyone wants to "wind the engine out" which I specifically addressed. If you aren't going WOT and cranking through the RPM range the ESC is off, it's doing nothing, there's no power going to it at all and therefore is completely useless during 99% of daily driving. The specific situation where the ESC is enabled is when you are at WOT and going for maximum acceleration - in which case there is absolutely no reason NOT to wind out the engine and shift near redline, as doing otherwise would slow you down. Once again, it looks awesome on paper and feels great in limited cases on the street, but it's impractical and a waste of money for 99% of daily driving situations. If someone was serious about racing on the track (drag, road or rally) they wouldn't even consider this unit.

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??

 

OP, you said the difference is about 10hp, but you added an open filter and a tune for that right? I'm not convinced any of your power is coming from the supercharger. Can you dyno with it on and off in the current setup? Also post airflow logs with it on and off?

 

No, this comparison was done using stock rom with cone filter on and off. Ok let me try to put the airflow logs in a chart. I will post it later.

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Perhaps you can enlighten us as to how forced induction cannot add power to a engine.

 

Btw how many of you naysayers are aware that audi is bringing an electric turbo charger not unlike this to production to decrease lag.

 

Forced induction can add power to an engine... The Phantom and Audi systems work because they are engineered to work. The product in this thread isn't engineered.

 

The compressor on this "supercharger" looks like it is more suitable for slowly circulating water, not compressing air. There is no variable geometry on the blades to indicate it is even worthy of the term variable.

 

The naysayers in this thread aren't ill-informed. They know better. I would expect an Audi system to be engineered, not stamped sheet metal inside a simple housing.

 

Case in point:

 

http://legacygt.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=207216&d=1429675337

Doesn't work. Never will.

 

http://www.phantomsuperchargers.com/uploads/1/2/4/9/12496102/1047989.jpg?874

Works for a little bit, then you need to recharge the battery.

 

This product does absolutely nothing except waste money. If you tune any car, it will almost definitely give better performance.

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I don't recall a variable geometry claim. Just variable speed which could be done with a speed control since the motor is probably brushless and sensorless. If someone was so inclined they could just as easily tune the ecm to run with the esc all the time depending on boost levels or use an ebc to control pressure. Noone here is claiming this method is cost effective or even reliable. Just that it is possible and with how quickly technology is evolving and becoming available on the market this is not far off from being a viable power adder.

 

I enjoy reading reviews about parts like this especially since the OP is not trying to sell or market anything just sharing his experience.

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If someone was so inclined they could just as easily tune the ecm to run with the esc all the time depending on boost levels or use an ebc to control pressure.

 

I'm not arguing electric supercharging as a viable method of temporary forced induction.

 

My argument is the product in this thread is designed to take advantage of unsuspecting buyers who don't know any better.

 

Any meaningful boost will require a large motor - in the case of the Phantom, 4kW (5.4 HP). To run the ESC continuously at boost, the alternator would have a horsepower extraction greater than 5.4 HP. If running low boost for a long period of time, the extraction would be less. You could run a combined cycle of full boost from battery and then charge the battery during low boost, but this would put a lot of stress on the battery and it would significantly reduce its life.

 

The reason the Phantom works is because it has an engineered supercharger compressor bolted to a electric motor that is up to the task. It draws a large amount of current (167 Amps at the rated power) for a set duration before the battery must be recharged. To put this into perspective, the LGT has a 110 amp* 12V alternator, which can generate at peak 1/3 of what is required for just the Phantom.

 

While the Phantom battery is separate from the main car battery, it adds an additional electrical load to the alternator. This in turn, does result in larger horsepower extraction for charging, however it is not quantified since we do not have an exact charging rate aside from the (8:1) charge time to runtime ratio.

 

 

 

*based on previous threads. Some have said they have 70 and 90 Amp. I honestly do not know.

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