Couple timing belt questions

So previous owner lied, timing belt not changed or done poorly... About ready to grenade. Belt looks ragged on the edges but its walking around on the gears 1/16th of an inch which is usually not a good sign, perhaps the tensioner is bad. I haven't had time to pull the cover yet, working OT...

 

The car was making what sounds like rod knocking sounds. It has a continuous P0301 Cylinder number 1 misfire code, and it has a hesitiation at low RPMS even with premium fuel and all sorts of tinkering. The knocking goes away completely sometimes when warm, comes back under accel. Its not as "obvious" as main bearing noise at 2000rpm either.

 

Will timing belt that is stretched/off a tooth cause the "knocking" noises? if the engine is truly knocking I will not be wasting time or money on the belt, I will be replacing it or parting out the car. I bought a compression tester and a mechanics stethoscope to test the engine and try to pinpoint the knock...

 

What is a good timing belt "kit" to get? Subaru OEM from Subaruparts is 469, the ones on Rockauto are 250ish. I know there is some really good reason to get the OEM kit but if someone can fill me in with a suggestion that would be awesome.

Gates are nice, and as good as OEM but a little cheaper. You can also get a cheap timing kit from mizmuauto on ebay for $115, which I have also used, but I don't think the belt is as nice. The mizmuaoto belt didn't seem as thick as the gates and is a bit noisier, but functions. The extra noise may also be due to the timing belt being slightly loose. I may have not positioned the tensioner properly when I did the install.

 

A tooth off shouldn't cause a problem. From what I understand the belt needs to be two or three off to be an issue. But an old loose belt doesn't sound good.

i like the kits from ''theimportexperts'' on ebay. good quality parts for a fair price. $125 for everything including the water pump. add another $35 for seals from the dealer and you r engine will be like new. good for 60k - 100k miles.

 

it is going to be hard to tell how far off the timing is while the center cover is still in place. the symptoms describe does sound like the timing has jumped. the 97 usually have the old style tensioner. but the new style can cause a ''knocking'' noise when it gets old.

 

a loose of slipping belt is REALLY not good. if it fails you will have valve damage, $$$.

 

i would fix this as soon as possible. you do not want it to fail. it only takes half a day to do the work.

Thanks for the replies.

 

I'll take your advice on the importexpert kit. Cheap is good. I assume the seals in these kits are junk and thats why you get the seals...

 

Monkey, what kind of noise are you talking about?

It's just a whirring noise coming from the timing belt. It's not too bad though and I have gotten used to it. I've heard it on other subies too. But it wasn't there until I replaced the old belt, but the car runs fine otherwise. When I replaced the timing belt on my SS I used a Gates kit and there isn't the same noise.

I have the same whirring noise from that belt. Sometimes annoying, but not horrible. I've had ricers ask if ts a Turbo, lol. Others tell me my PS pump is going.

See John has mentioned it, but the tensioner can and does tick/knock quite loudly.

Finally got the car in the garage ready to tear it down... Let me tell you... There was alot of junk in there. Haven't been driving it just in case the belt is about to go.

 

Ok now I'm a specialist with a mechanics stethescope huffing exhaust fumes in my garage...

 

The knock is definitely not originating from the tensioner. Its loudest near the rear of the engine in the center of the block. Wouldn't spark related knock be loudest near the head? And wouldn't tensioner related knock be pretty loud on the drivers side of the timing cover?

 

Its not severe BUT it bothers me AND its been doing it since I bought the car but its getting slowly worse. Video soon, cantget it uploaded for some reason...

I have the same whirring noise from that belt. Sometimes annoying, but not horrible. I've had ricers ask if ts a Turbo, lol. Others tell me my PS pump is going.

 

Does this noise only come on at around 3500 rpm. I get a noise at that rpm that I thought was a exhaust leak but maybe its this.

Use tiny url to upload...

Does this noise only come on at around 3500 rpm. I get a noise at that rpm that I thought was a exhaust leak but maybe its this.

 

My timing belt noise is always there, even at idle. What you describe sounds like an exhaust leak.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBCYP-Bi0IA&feature=g-crec]Subaru ej22 rod knock or piston slap? - YouTube[/ame]

 

Thats the noise. Ok I'll start by saying the car runs pretty good overall.

 

The noise bothers me, there is worriesome oil consumption around 1 quart every 500mi (there is a cam seal leak on drivers side... but it doesn't drip so its "consumption") and misfire P0301 and a hesistation which is roughly correlated to the lower RPM which the noise happens.

 

If the car gets "settled in" and run for awhile, the noise is not audible but it is audible with a mechanics stethoscope.

 

I am running fresh Rotella T 10w30 with 60 miles on it in the video, which I thought would quiet the noise but it didn't affect it. I topped off the oil burning with 15w40 Rotella for about 2000 mi before I changed it, and it ate it up too.

 

Haven't gotten the timing cover off, going to do a compression test first, but the flu, work and general disappointment have prevented that...

Sounds like rod knock. To the oil consumption, have you replaced the vapor barrier on the back side of the engine? If not, you could be losing oil there in addition to the cam seal(s).

I don't know about the vapor barrier... Does it leak? I'll have to look into it.

 

As I said, i don't have a full blown dripping oil leak. I park on white cement at work after driving for an hour and the car never leaves so much as a dribble.

 

Compression test... Cyl 1.

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c196/GhettoGothCowboy/IMG_20121128_202903_833.jpg

 

Cyl 2

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c196/GhettoGothCowboy/IMG_20121128_203141_282.jpg

 

Cyl 3

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c196/GhettoGothCowboy/IMG_20121128_203542_063.jpg

 

Cyl 4

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c196/GhettoGothCowboy/IMG_20121128_203828_247.jpg

 

The timing belt wobbling thing, haven't been able to verify it yet. I have the timing cover peeled back and the belt looks pretty good... Will have to reassemble and start it up and watch the belt. Belt doesn't seem to be compromised as bad as it looked when i first saw it underneath the car...

 

If its walking I'll drop the coolant and pull the cover. Otherwise, I think I'll just drive it...

 

Does anybody REALLY know what that noise is? It drives me up the ****ing wall... Piston slap? Rod knock? Derka derka?

Vapor barriers for earlier gens were plastic (or some form of plastic/nylon) and they leak. Located behind the torque plate (AT) or the flywheel (MT) you have to pull the transmission to actually assess whether it's a major leak or only seaping.

That noise is definitely not an HLA.

 

The vapor barrier is also known as the oil separator plate.

I have a 1999, I don't think I've got HLAs...

 

If its leaking real bad, wouldn't it drip from between the trans and the motor?

You are correct sir!

i cannot help based on your video, my computer has no sound. i know, i'm the only one in the universe with no sound on his computer.

 

piston slap is the result of ''short skirt'' pistons which move up and down in the cylinder during normal operation. longer skirts (earlier years) did not do this since the ''skirts'' maintained their alignment in the cylinder. but the pistons with shorter skirts have less length, they do not maintain their alignment and MAY tend to ''slap'' up and down in the cylinder.

 

piston slap usually presents in cold engines and in most / some cases dissipates as the engine warms up. it is not an indicator of imminent doom and for the most part can be ignored.

 

i in my case i bought a 97 outback with ''engine noise'' fully expecting to replace the engine. (i already had an engine ready to swap in.) but it turned out in my case that it was piston slap and i drove the car for 40k miles and sold it for more than i paid.

 

piston slap sounds a little like a diesel engine. and nothing will ''fix'' it short of new pistons. but it could run for a very long time while it is ''slappin''.

 

one way to tell is that the noise lessens or goes away as the engine warms up.

Yes it is a diesel like noise... Bet you 5 bucks its cyl #4 which has the lowest compression and the vicinity of noise noticed under the stethesope... and is right over el knock sensor...

my understanding on compression is , as long as all cylinders are with in 10% of each other you are ok. so i would not worry. but you may be right regarding that being the cylinder making the noise.

 

drive it until it dies. what do you have to lose. worst case is you get stranded and towed home. if it is a rod knocking it will get worse, louder, before it lets go.

 

btw, good work on thew compression test and pics.

My friend drove his 05 Outback all the way from NW PA to SC with a rod knock so loud I was stunned when I heard it, even more so when he decided to drive it all the way back. 1600 mile round trip, at 70+ mph. Eventually put in a replacement motor.

 

So if it is rod knock, and you don't drive it hard, it could last a long time. Same thing with piston/cylinder slap.

Thanks for the replies guys... I guess you are both right. My wounded pride, bellyaching, and office chair analysis isn't going to do anything for it so I might as well drive it till shes gone.

 

Well, we will see how effed up the timing belt is (if at all) and if the cam seal is leaking or I have that bad of aim with the oil bottle...

Replace a bunch of the timing cover bolts

Re-do the valve cover gaskets and seal them double with silicone, (they already leaked into the spark plug tubes even though they are only weeks old!!!) hard ghey...

Totally clean the spark plug tubes and boots.

Replace the spark plugs... They look fine on the tips but the porcelains were "cooked in an oil bath"

Take a stab at adjusting the valves with engine in car

Repair exhaust leak so I can hear the motor knock better...

Rotate tires

 

Then she'll be back on the road.

Well my awesome life is awesome. Just got the timing cover off today.

 

At what point should the timing belt cover be replaced? Fairly good sized chunks of it broke off, its cracked but not broken in half. Bolt tab is broken off. Alot of the bolts are junk or missing I had to use an extractor socket on one of them.

 

How do you know the tensioner is good? Is there a torque spec or a "deflection distance" the belt should have etc?

 

If you have a cam seal leak, is it usually pretty obvious? How and where does it leak? I cant tell if the cam seal is leaking or its just from missing the oil fill a bunch of times. Does it leak on the outside diameter or the inside diameter of the seal?

 

 

I am going to take a bunch of pics and upload them see what the experts think...

From my interpretation... It looks like the timing belt broke the heads were replaced or rebuilt (they are shiney, the block is corroded) however the work seems rushed on the rest of the motor. Bolts are missing or stuff is loose... Pics incoming.

You will see oil residue around the cam seal when you take the back timing covers off.

 

The timing cover should have to cracks in it, because it will let water into the timing belt area and most likely corrode parts. You can do a test on the tensioner but it requires a force gauge.