LGT weird handling near limit question

Hey all,

 

I have experienced a weird handling issue/characteristic with my 05 LGT MT (stock, re92s)

 

It has happend both on wet and dry. At least twice. Ill describe the situation and perhaps ppl can offer some suggestions on what is happening and how I may change my driving habits to avoid it in the future.

 

In all instances taking a corner fairly quickly (one sharp, one long), oversteer happens, car veers to left (nose first) and feels like it will spin out, I "correct" the steering as best I can only to oversteer in the opposite direction.

 

Luckily I have been able to get out of both situations without event, but pretty scary and not something I want to do again.

 

Now before you all go flaming my wonderful driving skills, can someone explain to me what is happening?

 

Is this a matter of me overcorrecting to much? Just driving too fast and being an idiot, or is this a handling characteristic of the car that I can be aware of and change the way I "correct" the car should it happen again.

 

I have heard of some STi going into a wall because of a similar thing as this, and Im pretty sure ppl have discussed it before..

Even a F1 car would spin out if driven beyond the limits of its suspension, brakes, and tires around a corner. Any of those variables, plus your driving habits, could account for what you are experiencing.

From my personal experience, I'd say the first thing to check is the air pressure in your tires. When I first took delivery of my car, the air pressures were WAY off and it was tail-happy to the point of being scary. I thought something dreadful was wrong with it, because the car I test-drove didn't exhibit that kind of behavior (the one I bought was on the showroom floor.) With the pressures set appropriately, I can MAKE it tail-happy when I want, but in the dry it doesn't take me by surprise.

Even a F1 car would spin out if driven beyond the limits of its suspension, brakes, and tires around a corner. Any of those variables, plus your driving habits, could account for what you are experiencing.

 

 

Yes, yes.

 

I will check the tire pressures.

 

The most recent time, I wasnt going that fast, but it was slippery out so there was wheel slip.

 

I guess what I am wondering is how to properly correct oversteer in the legacy gt without sending into oversteer in the opposite direction. That is the real issue.

you are lifting in the middle of a turn, taking the weight off the rear and in turn braking it loose, then you over correct in the other direction and the tail goes the other way again until you slow down enough to get traction again and settle the car. try braking in a straight line before the turn and then adding power through the apex. this way, if you push too hard, you will only get understeer and you can correct that easier by easing off the throttle alittle.

 

In short, you are not being smooth with the throttle or brakes through the turn.

^+1

Adding to the above comments, how's the condition of your tires? Realize that the RE92s are crap, esp. in wet situations where you had a hairy encounter. I almost never drive aggressively on wet roads due to these tires alone. AWD is not gonna save you when your rolling stock is not up to par.

you are lifting in the middle of a turn, taking the weight off the rear and in turn braking it loose, then you over correct in the other direction and the tail goes the other way again until you slow down enough to get traction again and settle the car. try braking in a straight line before the turn and then adding power through the apex. this way, if you push too hard, you will only get understeer and you can correct that easier by easing off the throttle alittle.

 

In short, you are not being smooth with the throttle or brakes through the turn.

 

+1

 

One of the first things they teach you at performance driving school is to be smooth with your inputs.

the re92s make handleing on the limit very scary. getting good tires will make the limit much more predictable wll let you make more handling mistakes without it biting your head off. too much weight transfer on re92s is very very scary, especially at higher speeds.

It sounds like you are learning the limits of your car.

 

BTW, I was told that in an AWD car, if the rear lifts, the "... diffs will get all confused ..." Whatever that means... It doesn't sound good especially if you have power on.

 

Here's a pic of my friend in his EVO auto-x'ing. He has a stock suspension. Look at how much the rear tire lifts!!! After he saw this picture, he told me that he is going to get Moton coilovers. The rear right tire is lifting because his left front spring is compressing too much. He neds a higher spring rate in the front.

 

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m166/sandyandmike/Me_Racing_10_29_06_33741.jpg

 

BTW, the EVO 9 MR is a fantastic track car. Even with his stock suspension, my friend put in the fastest times for a novice (his 2nd time at auto-x).

Sounds like you are over correcting.

 

Slow in, fast out is almost always faster around a corner than fast in, slow out.

I have a separate, but related question.

 

When taking a turn hard (pretend you are on a big open lot) and not giving it any throttle, in the Legacy Sedan what happens? Do the rear tires slide out from behind you or does it slide evenly?

 

When it slides, is it easy to maintain control?

 

Also, is it easy to tell when it's about to slide?

 

 

My old POS Celica had the most predicable handling I've ever experienced. In Kenner, LA where I'm from there's a Power Blvd. exit where it's a sort of 3 lane wide S curve and I used to take the exit at crazy speeds and slide to the left on the first half and flip the wheel and slide on the right to the stop light.

 

My current car I haven't been able to do that with - it grips too well and I'm scared to take that exit at the speeds that are probably required.

 

I know the Legacy sedan will not handle as well as the Prelude - so I'm pretty much just wondering if I'm going to wreck my car because of something I'm really not used to (such as the back tires suddenly losing traction like my mom's Ford Probe did at 30 MPH when I tried turning left into a gas station).

Thanks guys,

 

Yeah whitetiger it would seem I am prob lifting off the throttle going into the turn and prob braking during. Ill have to work on smoothing that out

 

It does feel like the diffs do something weird, I remeber seeing an STI take a hard turn once and he did the same oversteer one direction and then the other as well. He took the turn really fast tho.

 

I do feel that the RE92s are on there way out, quite sketchy in wet these days so thats also part of it.

 

I guess if I happen to oversteer again like that (I will try to smooth out my movements) I should just try to correct a little less? to avoid the double oversteer

Correct less, and smoothly. add steering toward the effect of keeping the front wheels pointing where you want to go. if anything the front drivetrain will help pull you forward, rather than jerking the rear end of the car around.

 

ease up or hold the throttle. Don't add power, but definitely don't just drop it either.

 

Adding power will just continue to overpower the sliding tires that are already beyond their traction limits. Dropping the throttle altogether will pitch the car forward onto the front tires, but will UN-weight the rear tires, allowing them to slide longer, and more out of control. The Front end may be planted, but the rear end will whip the car around on you, and the front tires can't save you from that.

 

once you have all four tires back with some semblance of traction, either drive through the curve, or continue to lightly ease off the throttle, and switch to safe braking, or downshift for engine braking through all four tires.

 

Next time, don't go into the curve so hot.

 

I am kind of looking forward to the snow, so I can find an empty lot, and practice these techniques at slower speeds in a controlled space.

 

Although, thankfully, I don't have RE92s at all. Dunlop Graspic DS2s are likely much better in the snow, and kumho supras better all around the rest of the year... although they are almost to the wear bars...

you are lifting in the middle of a turn, taking the weight off the rear and in turn braking it loose, then you over correct in the other direction and the tail goes the other way again until you slow down enough to get traction again and settle the car. try braking in a straight line before the turn and then adding power through the apex. this way, if you push too hard, you will only get understeer and you can correct that easier by easing off the throttle alittle.

 

In short, you are not being smooth with the throttle or brakes through the turn.

 

To see it in action, watch Tiff Needle:

[ame=http://youtube.com/watch?v=zauAXMpSBGc]YouTube- Broadcast Yourself.[/ame]

 

It's amazing how quick even a relatively grippy car will whip around on you in this situation.

Craw:

 

Understeer is name of game without lifting throttle/braking.

 

Always fun in the wet. Go in hot understeerundersteerundersteer *WOT* power oversteer! hehe

^^^ The LGT definitely "suffers" from throttle-lift oversteer...

Thanks guys, yeah def sounds like a case of

 

"drop-throttle oversteer" with overcorrection thereafter causing the dreaded double oversteer, problem is the two times this has happened, my brain has been too worried about the minivan/tractor trailer/curbs that my car was about to plow into and not proper technique.

 

I will try and remember the key points. What I really need tho is to hit the track and test it all out until I am confortable.

 

I know that when I first got the car I used to have tons of fun with the lift throttle oversteer on on/off ramps, letting me "drift" all the way, but when you arent expecting/wanting that it can get hairy!

Just noticed this thread. I had the same problem. The car "threatens" over steer. F&R sway bars totally eliminated this characteristic. The car is much more fun to drive at the limit and you can easily cast it into or out of a corner!

Interestingly Consumer Reports found and notes that LGT handling is tricky at the limits (and in emergency moves). Not the automotive source however its just a charectoristic of the car that could have been easily be corrected with VDC.

Interestingly Consumer Reports found and notes that LGT handling is tricky at the limits (and in emergency moves). Not the automotive source however its just a charectoristic of the car that could have been easily be corrected with VDC.

 

 

You could be right, but they don't make a VDC kit for the 2005 LGT!

Hey all,

 

I have experienced a weird handling issue/characteristic with my 05 LGT MT (stock, re92s)

 

It has happend both on wet and dry. At least twice. Ill describe the situation and perhaps ppl can offer some suggestions on what is happening and how I may change my driving habits to avoid it in the future.

 

In all instances taking a corner fairly quickly (one sharp, one long), oversteer happens, car veers to left (nose first) and feels like it will spin out, I "correct" the steering as best I can only to oversteer in the opposite direction.

 

Luckily I have been able to get out of both situations without event, but pretty scary and not something I want to do again.

 

Now before you all go flaming my wonderful driving skills, can someone explain to me what is happening?

 

Is this a matter of me overcorrecting to much? Just driving too fast and being an idiot, or is this a handling characteristic of the car that I can be aware of and change the way I "correct" the car should it happen again.

 

I have heard of some STi going into a wall because of a similar thing as this, and Im pretty sure ppl have discussed it before..

 

 

are you letting off the throttle and applying the brakes AFTER you make the commitment of steering into the turn? If you are letting off the throttle, turn, and then apply the brakes, you are doing the classic dynamic drift move of using the following techniques one after another:

 

throttle-off

possibly a scandavian flick

braking drift

 

The problem is that you havent got the firm grasp of general car dynamics and how you are rocking/pitching the car on purpose, you are doing it by accident. Also where and what are your eyes looking at as the car starts to spin? If you look where you want to go, it will be easier to correct the spin, if you start to look directly in front of the car or a curb, your eyes will tell you where your hands to go and you will start to panic and do something that the car won't understand or can't deal with (either too much braking, too much steering, etc) and the car will hit something because you are looking at it. Look for your "exit". Drive smoother. If you are driving too fast, it's possible that you can easily overload the RE92s anyway and you'll understeer, so that means that you couldnt have been driving that fast to even make the car pitch and gain grip in the front end to even begin to spin.

Well I'm not sure how much this will apply. But I was at my local Auto X track and the instructor was riding along. At the limit we found my car would first just start sliding (felt like understeer but from all 4 wheels) and then if you kept pushing it past it, it would break into full out understeer. Now my older Leg doesn't have the nippier handeling that the newer ones do, but I definately agree that part of your oversteer is caused by either coming in way too fast, hard breaking in the curve, or too much of a heavy foot. I have to pull one quote out "Don't put the power on until you know you never have to take it off. — Sir Jackie Stewart on Top Gear.

 

I'd say, and this is something I learned from auto x, get your Subie in shape before the corner, then use throttle ballance to work your way through the corner. That way there's only one thing controling how the car handles rather than 3 different variables. With the throttle control one it will tend to understeer if pushed super hard (trait of all Subys). I'd personally reccomend an empty parking lot with some cones to practice with.

 

Enjoy!

I'll stick with my sway bar suggestion. A very good driver, ala Zeconk with lots of seat time can make a not very well handling car go fast. But, thats not what we are talking about here. We are not talking about a race track.

 

We are talking about on/off ramps or(I hope) deserted back roads. In these cases you can't go back in time and say "I overcooked that decreasing radius turn, oops, I spun out! There are no cones to hit, just stone walls or trees.

 

 

 

I suspect that my wagon, with those dreaded re92s, will out corner a stock wagon with Goodyear's or what have you. That is why bigger bars bump you up a class in SCCA solo.

 

 

Better tires just increase the G limit of adhesion. The problem of initial over steer transition will remain. It will just occur at a higher speed!

I suspect that my wagon, with those dreaded re92s, will out corner a stock wagon with Goodyear's or what have you. That is why bigger bars bump you up a class in SCCA solo.

 

 

 

This is wrong. The legacy with the better tires will win 99% of the time if compared to one with stock re92s and a rear sway bar. It is often the case that the stock class cars with the race tires do much better than the street turing cars with all their suspension work and street tires.